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Tiers. Why have them?

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats. What is the point in tiers, though? They are basically saying "this Pokemon is better than that one" when a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature. Is it still better than the NU? No.
 
I think this fits better in the competitive section. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't want to see Moody Smeargle and Double Team Ninjask running around everywhere. I think tiers really help stabilize the metagame and prevent overpowered Pokémon from ruling it. Sure, it may be unfair at times but it's a lot better than having on tiers.
 

Will-powered Spriter

Pokédex Complete!
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats. What is the point in tiers, though? They are basically saying "this Pokemon is better than that one" when a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature. Is it still better than the NU? No.

Thing one: Tiers are designed for competitive play, where it can safely assumed all pokemon are well EV'd and with good natures. Yes a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature, but in the enviroment tiers are designed for, that won't happen.

Thing two: Tiers are designed to encourage variations in teams. In competitive play, people obviously are going to choose pokemon best apt to let them win. So, let's say someone is into competitive pokemon, and wants to use their favourite ever pokemon. Without tiers, unless their favourite is kyogre, they'd be a bit screwed, as the pokemon would basically be a dead weight against all the monstrous legends running around. With tiers, they can choose the tier in which their favourite is most suitable and use it to it's full potential there.

Thing three: Tiers are an optional ruleset for a specific type of player. Tiers just don't exist in normal online play, where it's use whatever you feel like. If you don't like tiers, ignore them.

I will admit Smogon can seem very ban happy sometimes, but they do have a method behind the madness and they try to make sure sure the majority of their community agrees before they ban stuff.
 

Tyranitarquake

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX!!!
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats. What is the point in tiers, though? They are basically saying "this Pokemon is better than that one" when a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature. Is it still better than the NU? No.

Hey, you should do one thing. Play competitively without using tiers. Give it a go. Have fun battling teams full of Mewtwo, kyogre, and just about anything that can cook shiz up.
 

NeohopeSTF

Sol Badguy
without tier Legends would be everywere SS team would invincble.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats. What is the point in tiers, though? They are basically saying "this Pokemon is better than that one" when a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature. Is it still better than the NU? No.

Tiers are built on the premise that players of equal skill are competing against eachother, not one idiot who is button mashing and one who has properly trained Pokemon and has a thought out strategy.

(other note: Most Smogon battling takes place using simulators rather than the Game carts)

The whole point of tiers is to give each Pokemon a chance to shine in it's own way. Without tiers, such as on Random Wi-Fi back in Gen 4 via PBR, if your opponent plays Darkrai, Mewtwo, Kyogre, etc..., you're screwed unless you have something equally powerful to back it up.

I don't know why people (like you) are acting like Smogon is "forcing" anything. They only enforce their rules on their site and no one has ever been forced into using tiers ever. It's just while your signature mindlessly and randomly bans Pokemon with little rhyme or reason, while Smogon's tiering system has logic and thought behind it's madness. With tiers, Pokemon like Butterfree don't have to worry about Heatran, Infernape, and Staraptor which they normally wouldn't have a chance against.

For example, Speed Boost Blaziken shows that you don't understand how tiers work. The "uber" tier isn't a tier thats meant to be balanced. It's essentially a ban list. Speed Boost Blaziken became such an overcentralizing threat in standard OU that people were more or less both forced to have it AND build a good chunk of their team to counter it, which is very hard to do. So the question isn't "Can SB Blaziken compete with other ubers" but rather "Can SB Blaziken compete in standard OU without breaking the game" and that answer is No, it can't.
 
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jolteon27

Epic & Electric
teirs exist for a reason, for example i love using charizard, but do you think i could be mentaly stable and still do that with rayquaza, kyogre, zekrom ect. all rampaging, destroying the world, and worst of all... KILLING INNOCENT LITTLE CUP POKEMON!!!
 

Tyranitarquake

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX!!!
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats. What is the point in tiers, though? They are basically saying "this Pokemon is better than that one" when a properly EV trained NU could probably beat an Uber that has awful EV spread and a bad nature. Is it still better than the NU? No.

To expand on above poster, yes, SB Blaziken might not stand a chance in ubers, but have you seen that thing in OU? Yes, it has counters, but so does every other pokemon. It's either in OU and murders things, or it's in ubers getting killed.
 

jolteon27

Epic & Electric
poor SB blazikin, it just doesnt have a good home
 

Inchtall

Back in Black....2
Tiers separate Pokemon so this only fights that. Smogon is ban happy(If Kingdra is a problem with Swift Swim, just ban that Pokemon instead of the entire strategy), but they have helped control competitive play.
 

foxyman1167

From Zero To Hero
They try to create balance, by controlling those that are deemed too powerful for a tier, and over centralize it. I hope they unban Drizzle + Swift Swim soon, it took three generations to get a rain starter outside of Ubers, and now it's useless :'(
 

Will-powered Spriter

Pokédex Complete!
I dunno, reading its analysis suggests Smogon still considers SB Blaziken a major threat, even in ubers, and under the DW ruleset, where everything has all it's available dw abilities and egg moves, Blaziken (Which gains only baton pass from this) is actually the most used uber.
 

Ruby Blue

Well-Known Member
As anyone who has ever read my sig could guess, I don't like Smogon. They ban everything that beats them, I mean Speed Boost Blaziken doesn't stand a chance against most "Uber" threats.

Yeah, but Ubers isn't supposed to be balanced, it's the OU banlist :S
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
All of you make a good point. But then why not just make a ban list of Pokemon and have no tiers?

Well, that's what I do, so basically I play OU in a sense.
 

DJ Pon-3

Elite DJ
Here's my issue. Ubers are easily established initially, but when you start banning things because "It's hard to beat like this" , you need to seriously question your skills. Now, I'm not claiming to be god's gift to Pokemon, but when you start banning a Pokemon because its faster than you in a weather condition that is easily stopped, you need to quit. This is coming from someone who has an advanced knowledge of weather teams. After sun, rain is the easiest strategy to stop. Tiers are okay as long as you don't get ban happy. Did anyone else see the double whammy Beta server made last week? (Banned Snover from NU, and then Banned Hail from UU)
 

NeohopeSTF

Sol Badguy
Smogon has a dart board of all the best OU pokes and when a dart lands on one its banned. :p
 

Ruby Blue

Well-Known Member
Umm... Tiers exist so that pokémon that may be overshadowed or less useful in standard play have a place where they can see good use.
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
I've seen the point in them, and now I somewhat like them. But I don't follow all other things they have banned.
 

foxyman1167

From Zero To Hero
All of you make a good point. But then why not just make a ban list of Pokemon and have no tiers?

Well, that's what I do, so basically I play OU in a sense.

What you're suggesting is banning some pokemon from being used at all, instead of creating their own tier.
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
Well the bans could be lifted if you wish to play with those Pokemon.
 
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