Time for Change

[red2000]

Pokemon has been around forever, its been a source of great joy to all of us, it has its flaws but we love it anyway, but there's just one thing that I really need GF to change..... HM's

Hidden Machines have been around since Gen 1, there mostly needed for certain obstacles in-game, now with HM Slaves (Bibarel, Gyarados, Skarmory) and move deleters they are no where near the nuisance they were in Gen 1, but as Pokemon has made changes over the years to improve the overall gaming experience, and I think getting rid of HM's is a good idea

As for over world obstacles, just let Flying Pokemon fly you wherever your going, My Golurk or Braviary shouldn't lose a move slot just to learn something they can naturally do!

Cut- Plenty of Pokemon with sharp claws
Surf- Everyone has Water Pokemon
Waterfall, Dive- see Surf
Rock Climb-why?
Strength- should be able to be used by any evolved Pokemon

Now if having Pokemon use their natural strength is too "out of the box" then lets just go the "Flash" Rock Smash" route, just make them all re-useable TM's and lets call it day

what do you think?

 

[telivisionhead]

That does make sense. It's either I waste a slot on a moveset of mypokemon just so I can get items/pokemon/battle trainers or continue on with the story.
Or I waste time going back a mile with no repels to get a random pokemon out of my PC as a HM slave when I need it to get past an area and trainers are their so I need to loose a pokemon on my team and they miss out of Exp. Now HM places are optional but adviced it is a bit better. Look in osul silver most the time you need flash (optional) to do stuff. And surf and strength, JUST TO GET LUGIA!!!!! AND YOU HAVE TO BATTLE IT TO CONTINUE THE STORY LINE!!!! UGH!!!!!
It really annoys me. And whirlpool to some stupid house in a CAVE just to get a gym badge I should've got and do a weird quiz.

 

[bolter1]

As for over world obstacles, just let Flying Pokemon fly you wherever your going, My Golurk or Braviary shouldn't lose a move slot just to learn something they can naturally do!

How would Gyarados, a Flying-type, fly?

Surf- Everyone has Water Pokemon
Waterfall, Dive- see Surf

Pretty much all Water-types learn Surf and/or Waterfall already, and besides those two moves are considered to be the best Water-type moves, so I don't see what's bad about having them on a Pokemon. I see your point for Dive, though.

Rock Climb-why?

To keep things inaccesible until they are needed in the story.

Strength- should be able to be used by any evolved Pokemon

Awesome! My Pachirisu can push giant boulders that are 10x the size of it around easily!

AND YOU HAVE TO BATTLE IT TO CONTINUE THE STORY LINE!!!! UGH!!!!! It really annoys me.

They do this so the player can't skip a gym and part of the story. That's what HMs are used for, and they are undeletable so the player can't somehow get stuck in a place. I've found out that by watching Youtube videos that if it is possible to get stuck somewhere, people will get stuck there.

 

[Retro-Chaos X]

I completely support this. HM's are just a pain, they are annoying since they take up my move spaces when, realistically, we don't need them at all. I also hate how to remove a HM, we need to get to a place late in the game just to remove it.

 

[telivisionhead]

I completely support this. HM's are just a pain, they are annoying since they take up my move spaces when, realistically, we don't need them at all. I also hate how to remove a HM, we need to get to a place late in the game just to remove it.

Yeah. If your in a nuzlocke and you have not a team of 6 or something or no pokemon able to learn the HM then your basicly dead........
Or forget to pick up a pokemon able to learn the HM. At least Bidoof is usually used for HM slave so it isn't hated by all. But even still that's just making Bidoof look like a fool then.....
I see no point in HMs they are just a pain in the BUTT!

 

[The Benmeister]

I've said this idea many times, but there should be items that you purchase at a relatively high price that replace HMs, for example a hatchet that replaces Cut, or a surfboard that replaced Surf or something. That way it's like a reward for good gameplay, and it gets rid of the annoyance of HM slaves as well as gives a good use for the stockpiles of unused money that you accumulate through gameplay.

 

[red2000]

@bolter1 We'll just leave Gyarados in that obscure grey area, along with Scyther

but I feel to give some sort of structure to it, only Fully evolved Pokemon could use their abilities to get you around, no just catching a random Tympole or Pidgey just to get around you actually have to have something capable of moving the Player around e.x. Lapras or Salamence, this is to give a bit of challenge but to still keep the game moving

As for Strength, any Pokemon should be able to move a boulder, Rock Smash too. Rock Climb should be something for mountainous region Pokemon via Gogoat, Donphan & Aggron, stuff that should probably be available when you get ti that area anyway

 

[Hidden Power]

To keep things inaccesible until they are needed in the story.

They do this so the player can't skip a gym and part of the story. That's what HMs are used for, and they are undeletable so the player can't somehow get stuck in a place. I've found out that by watching Youtube videos that if it is possible to get stuck somewhere, people will get stuck there.

I'm not sure what's the last Pokemon game you played, but by BW/B2W2, badges were no longer a pre-requisite to use HMs, and I believe you can proceed through the main story without needing any HM moves as well, which leaves us with the 'not get stuck somewhere' functionality.

EDIT: Apparently they were needed, but very minimally.

Even so, suppose that all HMs follow the path of Flash/Rock Smash. If you intentionally or unintentionally use a HM move to get somewhere, then replace the move and trade that Pokemon away via IR to get yourself stuck, it's not as devastating as you think. Just get someone to trade another Pokemon with that HM to you again.

 

[yuoke]

How would Gyarados, a Flying-type, fly?


Pretty much all Water-types learn Surf and/or Waterfall already, and besides those two moves are considered to be the best Water-type moves, so I don't see what's bad about having them on a Pokemon. I see your point for Dive, though.

To keep things inaccesible until they are needed in the story.

Awesome! My Pachirisu can push giant boulders that are 10x the size of it around easily!

They do this so the player can't skip a gym and part of the story. That's what HMs are used for, and they are undeletable so the player can't somehow get stuck in a place. I've found out that by watching Youtube videos that if it is possible to get stuck somewhere, people will get stuck there.

In bw, you only need to use cut like one time, and not one other hm is required the rest of the game. In bw2, you only are required surf, but who doesn't teach that to At least one pokemon anyway?

 

[IAintObeezy]

This thread is a little late. IN Gen 5 HM moves are use very rarely in order to proceed with the main story.

 

[red2000]

Well as I've said the "Getting stuck" factor is Eliminated if Your Pokemon can just push a boulder or cut down a tree or swim across a river, besides the being able to freely go around would come with a price, if you decide to go some where ahead of the story and your Lv 20 team of noobs gets clocked by a guy with a Lv 50 Haxorus then that's your fault

 

[red2000]

This thread is a little late. IN Gen 5 HM moves are use very rarely in order to proceed with the main story.

True, but the few times you have to use it outside of the story (Strength,Waterfall, Dive) are all points in the game where you don't really feel like changing a move set just to do one thing

And I believe BW/B2W2 did a great job not shoving HM's down our throats, I think the next logical step is to eliminate them altogether

 

[Hidden Power]

In bw, you only need to use cut like one time, and not one other hm is required the rest of the game. In bw2, you only are required surf, but who doesn't teach that to At least one pokemon anyway?

Actually, do you remember where were those used? I'm looking at walkthroughs but they aren't good at pinpointing such stuff.

 

[Excitable Boy]

Actually, do you remember where were those used? I'm looking at walkthroughs but they aren't good at pinpointing such stuff.

BW1 requires Cut to access the Plasma Grunts in the Dreamyard

BW2 requires Surf to access the Plasma Frigate

 

[DjangoCribbs]

I'm with OP, I'm dead against HMs myself.
However, Bolter1 raises some obvious issues with OP's ideas that I feel have obvious solutions so I shall address them.

As for over world obstacles, just let Flying Pokemon fly you wherever your going, My Golurk or Braviary shouldn't lose a move slot just to learn something they can naturally do!

How would Gyarados, a Flying-type, fly?

Obviously there are several Flying types that would present this problem. I feel it's easy enough to fix.
Firstly, change Gyarados to a Water/Dragon. Seriously, it doesn't fly in any way, it's not remotely birdlike... All it does it make them horribly vulnerable to Electric. It learns ONE Flying move in current gen. Through a move tutor. The move is Bounce. See? No point being Flying what-so-ever.
But let's say we aren't gonna change that. You have two flags for whether a Pokemon can fly you. First is can it fly? For this it basically needs wings. Secondly, is it big/strong enough to carry an adolescent human?
What you'd end up with is winged Pokemon such as Pidgey or Spearow cannot Fly you places. It's too damn small. A big Pokemon like Gyarados cannot Fly you places. It can't actually fly. A Pokemon like Emolga cannot Fly you places, it glides rather than flies and it's too small. Pidgeot, Fearow, the Legendary birds... These would be able to fly you around. Seeing the pattern? Some might take more consideration than others but I think the idea is sound.

Surf- Everyone has Water Pokemon
Waterfall, Dive- see Surf

Pretty much all Water-types learn Surf and/or Waterfall already, and besides those two moves are considered to be the best Water-type moves, so I don't see what's bad about having them on a Pokemon. I see your point for Dive, though.

I'm not sure you understood OP on this one.
What he's saying is that to get through any Pokemon game you HAVE to have a Water type. Or an HM slave that can learn those moves. Takes away from a certain amount of freedom in what to catch.
Whether or not they're a good move should be sorta moot, I think. There are other moves as well as new ones being made each game. Nearly every Water Pokemon having Surf or Waterfall is kinda dull.
As for gameplay, this would largely work the same as Fly. Can the Pokemon swim? Can the Pokemon swim while keeping the PC afloat? Through this, areas across water can potentially become accessible much earlier on resulting in development of Routes/Areas to adapt which I like to hope would make for a fresher feeling Pokemon game. Though to keep some sense of linearity and control you could have deep water (seas) and shallow water (rivers, lakes, coasts), with only particularly developed Water Pokemon able to ferry you across the deep water.

Rock Climb-why?

To keep things inaccesible until they are needed in the story.

Something of a lazy response, I feel. There are many other ways to make certain areas inaccessible till a later point that are far more immersive. There's the other standard of just having a couple of NPCs stand in the transition points. D/P/Pt loves using that one.
I always felt Rock Climb was one of the worst HMs because it would have a couple of uses to advance in the story, as justification, and then a half dozen gimmicky uses to access rather small, relatively unimpressive areas. Compared to Surf, as an HM that's supposed to make many previously unavailable areas explorable, it's quite a disappointment.

Strength- should be able to be used by any evolved Pokemon

Awesome! My Pachirisu can push giant boulders that are 10x the size of it around easily!

Now, maybe I'm being ignorant. I've not played the B/W series which I have gotten grief for so pardon me if I'm wrong but isn't Pachirisu an un-evolving Pokemon? It offers up only 1 EV... I'm pretty sure that even if we went with OP's suggestion, your Pachirisu wouldn't qualify for Strength. I'm inclined to suggest you're being facetious. But I do agree that it shouldn't be any evolved Pokemon. Gardevoir shouldn't be able to, for example.
Either way, you once again solve it with simple flags. One can, once again, be that Pokemon's size. Is Machop yet strong enough to shift the rocks around? Doubt it. Is Machoke? Of course. You could also do it based on Phys. Att stat if you liked. But I'm thinking it should be big, burly Pokemon.

Basically, I think HMs should be abolished, the moves turned into basic "abilities" that most Pokemon just have. And I don't mean ability as in the actual named ability that Pokemon have. I just mean as in something they can do.
Personally I'd team this idea up with my idea for changing the way you access the population centres and routes to create a Pokemon world that is not restricting at any point but opens up massively once you've started to build a varied team. At the same time, it wouldn't punish you if you wanted to specialise in a certain type.

 

[IAintObeezy]

True, but the few times you have to use it outside of the story (Strength,Waterfall, Dive) are all points in the game where you don't really feel like changing a move set just to do one thing

And I believe BW/B2W2 did a great job not shoving HM's down our throats, I think the next logical step is to eliminate them altogether

Alright then DONT! Most things that require HM are side quest and are off the beaten path. If you are too lazy to own a HM slave then you by all means you DONT have to do it.

 

[DjangoCribbs]

Alright then DONT! Most things that require HM are side quest and are off the beaten path. If you are too lazy to own a HM slave then you by all means you DONT have to do it.

I think that's very unfair. To suggest that someone is too "lazy" to have an HM slave is tantamount to telling someone "they're playing it wrong" because they don't want to catch the same 'Mon as you. I've never used an HM slave, I find the idea of one completely destroys my sense of immersion in the game. Because I don't want my immersion and game experience broken, does that mean I should be unable to access most of the game's areas? Because of a tiny little tree that I'm apparently totally unable to get around?

 

[Enjolras]

I've said this idea many times, but there should be items that you purchase at a relatively high price that replace HMs, for example a hatchet that replaces Cut, or a surfboard that replaced Surf or something. That way it's like a reward for good gameplay, and it gets rid of the annoyance of HM slaves as well as gives a good use for the stockpiles of unused money that you accumulate through gameplay.

Has no one commented on this? I think it's a fairly good idea. Turn all HMs into TMs, and use key items for our uses instead.

 

[Hidden Power]

Firstly, change Gyarados to a Water/Dragon. Seriously, it doesn't fly in any way, it's not remotely birdlike... All it does it make them horribly vulnerable to Electric. It learns ONE Flying move in current gen. Through a move tutor. The move is Bounce. See? No point being Flying what-so-ever.
But let's say we aren't gonna change that. You have two flags for whether a Pokemon can fly you. First is can it fly? For this it basically needs wings. Secondly, is it big/strong enough to carry an adolescent human?
What you'd end up with is winged Pokemon such as Pidgey or Spearow cannot Fly you places. It's too damn small. A big Pokemon like Gyarados cannot Fly you places. It can't actually fly. A Pokemon like Emolga cannot Fly you places, it glides rather than flies and it's too small. Pidgeot, Fearow, the Legendary birds... These would be able to fly you around. Seeing the pattern? Some might take more consideration than others but I think the idea is sound.

While I'm not against Gyarados changing type (we are getting a new type anyway, which is pretty much as good as a retcon to me), I'm not sure why you would not prefer the simpler method of making HM work like TM. All it takes is the removal of IR trading (which allows trading from any in-game location) to prevent anyone from getting stuck. Your suggestion involves altering movepools of Pokemon which previously could learn Fly, and two flags to determine whether a Pokemon could fly, which I'm not sure if both must be fulfilled or it could be one without the other. It would be somewhat counter-intuitive when Pokemon such as Golurk, which is not part Flying, but capable of flight, but (for argument's sake) Snorlax couldn't.

My issue with HMs is that with the exception of Fly, none of the HMs have any long-term utility. The first time you get it you use the move to either unlock a shortcut once (Strength), or retrieve those one-off rewards on the ground. Once in the post-game stage that you have almost no reason to carry those moves with you.

Has no one commented on this? I think it's a fairly good idea. Turn all HMs into TMs, and use key items for our uses instead.

I think the original purpose of HMs was to promote the idea of overcoming obstacles during your adventure with your Pokemon. If you're going to eventually have key items to do the job, my question would be why have that obstacle around in the first place anyway? At the end of the day it's just going to lose its original meaning while making players press the A button a few more times, is all.

 

[mjunior3]

This idea could potentially ruin competitive batting. Surf, Strength, and Waterfall are all incredibly powerfull moves that I use regularly. Are the designers/programers going to change the format because it is annoying? How about Ash catching almost anything with a regular Pokeball? Should they get rid of all Pokeballs and make THE Pokeball as strong as an Ultra Ball, or are you going to have to work for what you want?

Sorry, but getting rid of HM's would destroy my game, so I would be fully against it, for the reasons above.