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Yeah, but can he do it back to back though? It's one thing to defeat them 1v1, it's another thing to defeat them in a row. I agree that Pikachu could take base-form Charizard, I don't agree that he could take down MCX at all.
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Tobias vs Alain - The Saltiest Battle
- Thread starter Bortgreen
- Start date
Yeah, but can he do it back to back though? It's one thing to defeat them 1v1, it's another thing to defeat them in a row. I agree that Pikachu could take base-form Charizard, I don't agree that he could take down MCX at all.
Blastmaster
Well-Known Member
We don't know exactly what his full team was, but Tobias's entire concept is that everything about him is near unstoppable. He sends out a Latios after Darkrai to show the audience that even without Darkrai, he isn't any less broken. Alain is a guy with one ultra broken Pokemon and 5 average ones. Without his Charizard, he's hardly stronger than any average trainer. Tobias is meant to be seen as way, way above the average trainer at all times.
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I stopped reading at “ We don’t know exactly “
We know he has two legendary Pokémon and one of which is broken for sure. That’s about it
maartjeverhoef
Banned
Alain. The writers gave his Mega Charizard X some ridiculous feats so I'm sure they'd find a way to make him defeat Tobias' team even if it's full of legendaries.
ash&charizardfan
Humans are tools
There as this crazy rumour that his remaining 4 pokemon were all magikarps.
mehmeh1
Not thinking twice!
Don't forget he also OHKO'd Ash's surprisingly tanky Swellow, though we don't know how good Latios is defensively, as most of the damage he took was reduced by Light Screen.
Genaller
Silver Soul
If I’m being completely honest, MC-X could beat any Tobias lvl legendary 1 vs 1 with at most low difficulty and could take out at least 5 before falling (even factoring in accumulated stamina drain) after which Metagross (who pushed a Peakachu that was stronger than the variant which fought Latios) + Bisharp could finish off the remaining legendary if need be.
E4 Ace lvl is a fair estimate for Tobias’s legendaries though likely not as strong as say Flint’s Infernape. That lvl would be sufficient for feats like soloing 8 of sinnoh’s gym leaders and most league trainers (actually Agatha’s Gengar can use Darkrai Dark Void + Dream Eater strat in the form of Hypnosis + Dream Eater). That’s great and all but MC-X by the Kalos League finals is practically Champion Mega Ace lvl (at worst barely below it).
MC-X beats Malva’s Mega Houndoom after having substantial stamina drain from facing 9 other Mega Evolutions and while it healed between some battles, we know it wasn’t at full health going into the Mega Houndoom fight since we see visible bruises on it after it beat the 9th pokémon. Alain implies that Ash-Greninja’s performance exceeded that of Malva’s Mega Houndoom with his statements yet his MC-X was able to beat it despite having sustained significant damage going into the battle (as a Base Charizard against Peakachu).
To get an idea of how great MC-X’s growth rate was throughout the series, consider that in ME Act 1 MC-X had a fairly competitive fight with Remo’s Mega Garchomp with MC-X panting and having bruises after the fight. This same MC -X was able to give Siebold’s Mega Blastoise a lower mid - mid difficulty fight which shows that Mega Garchomp was no pushover either. After this until the Kalos League Remo and his Garchomp undergo intense training yet in the Kalos League rematch Mega Charizard X wrecks Mega Garchomp in 2 strikes with negligible difficulty!
Perfect Zygarde is shown to be more powerful than every trainer pokémon battling in the final battle for Kalos combined including Steven’s Mega Metagross, Diantha’s Mega Gardevoir, Alain’s MC-X, Malva’s Mega Houndoom, Ash-Greninja etc... Even if 50% Zygarde were only half as strong (and before anyone brings up the games, note that the 2 versions of Zygarde are very similar in stats barring HP which is properly doubled, so saying 50% Zygarde is only half as strong overall would be a generous low ball in this case; in addition game stats in general are objectively unreliable for the anime), that should put it well above Champion Mega Ace lvl yet Alain’s Mega Charizard X was able to A) get it’s attention with a Flamethrower as a Base Charizard, B) deal non-trivial damage with Dragon Claw as an MC-X, and C) tank both Extremespeed and more notably Zygarde’s signature supereffective Land’s Wrath after which it was ready to continue and showed no signs of being anywhere close to its limit. Obviously 50% Zygarde should be stronger but the fact that MC-X was actually putting up a fight and not being treated like fodder speaks volumes.
Yeah that’s really not as impressive as you’d think. Swellow never displayed those tanking feats against a truly strong pokémon. For example against a wild Deoxys Swellow got wrecked by a single Extremespeed and was incapacitated for the rest of the battle (also it only landed that Quick Attack because Deoxys wasn’t paying attention towards it before it got close) whereas Sceptile later on was able to match it in travel speed and get on its back.
E4 Ace lvl is a fair estimate for Tobias’s legendaries though likely not as strong as say Flint’s Infernape. That lvl would be sufficient for feats like soloing 8 of sinnoh’s gym leaders and most league trainers (actually Agatha’s Gengar can use Darkrai Dark Void + Dream Eater strat in the form of Hypnosis + Dream Eater). That’s great and all but MC-X by the Kalos League finals is practically Champion Mega Ace lvl (at worst barely below it).
MC-X beats Malva’s Mega Houndoom after having substantial stamina drain from facing 9 other Mega Evolutions and while it healed between some battles, we know it wasn’t at full health going into the Mega Houndoom fight since we see visible bruises on it after it beat the 9th pokémon. Alain implies that Ash-Greninja’s performance exceeded that of Malva’s Mega Houndoom with his statements yet his MC-X was able to beat it despite having sustained significant damage going into the battle (as a Base Charizard against Peakachu).
To get an idea of how great MC-X’s growth rate was throughout the series, consider that in ME Act 1 MC-X had a fairly competitive fight with Remo’s Mega Garchomp with MC-X panting and having bruises after the fight. This same MC -X was able to give Siebold’s Mega Blastoise a lower mid - mid difficulty fight which shows that Mega Garchomp was no pushover either. After this until the Kalos League Remo and his Garchomp undergo intense training yet in the Kalos League rematch Mega Charizard X wrecks Mega Garchomp in 2 strikes with negligible difficulty!
Perfect Zygarde is shown to be more powerful than every trainer pokémon battling in the final battle for Kalos combined including Steven’s Mega Metagross, Diantha’s Mega Gardevoir, Alain’s MC-X, Malva’s Mega Houndoom, Ash-Greninja etc... Even if 50% Zygarde were only half as strong (and before anyone brings up the games, note that the 2 versions of Zygarde are very similar in stats barring HP which is properly doubled, so saying 50% Zygarde is only half as strong overall would be a generous low ball in this case; in addition game stats in general are objectively unreliable for the anime), that should put it well above Champion Mega Ace lvl yet Alain’s Mega Charizard X was able to A) get it’s attention with a Flamethrower as a Base Charizard, B) deal non-trivial damage with Dragon Claw as an MC-X, and C) tank both Extremespeed and more notably Zygarde’s signature supereffective Land’s Wrath after which it was ready to continue and showed no signs of being anywhere close to its limit. Obviously 50% Zygarde should be stronger but the fact that MC-X was actually putting up a fight and not being treated like fodder speaks volumes.
Yeah that’s really not as impressive as you’d think. Swellow never displayed those tanking feats against a truly strong pokémon. For example against a wild Deoxys Swellow got wrecked by a single Extremespeed and was incapacitated for the rest of the battle (also it only landed that Quick Attack because Deoxys wasn’t paying attention towards it before it got close) whereas Sceptile later on was able to match it in travel speed and get on its back.
mehmeh1
Not thinking twice!
I'd argue that Tucker's Swampert and Arcanine are particularly powerful, though then again, Corphish did just as well as Swellow against them. BTW, about how fast would you say MCX is, at least compared to Latios?
Red and Blue
Well-Known Member
If Tobias other four Pokemon were legendaries/mythicals then yeah I think he would come out the winner. At best Charizard could take out or tie with Darkrai which would leave Latios and Tobias' other Pokemon to deal with the rest of Alain's team
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Tobias is hella overrated, if Ash fielded an actual above average team, I’m sure he would have taken both Darkrai and Latios. Though Infernape was injured, with the Pokémon Ash had on hand, Charizard, Sceptile, and Pikachu were all capable of taking down Tobias’s Pokemon 1v1.
No idea why Tobias has reached this mythical god-tier status when essentially all Ash had to do was deploy Sceptile and Pikachu back to back and he would have taken both down
His Trollbias status basically fully rests on Ash’s faults in the match against him and assumptions made by the fandom that he has more legendaries on his team when in reality in a VS like this, those are assumptions not backed up by the Pokemon anime itself
No idea why Tobias has reached this mythical god-tier status when essentially all Ash had to do was deploy Sceptile and Pikachu back to back and he would have taken both down
His Trollbias status basically fully rests on Ash’s faults in the match against him and assumptions made by the fandom that he has more legendaries on his team when in reality in a VS like this, those are assumptions not backed up by the Pokemon anime itself
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Genaller
Silver Soul
Yeah he’s easily the weakest Frontier Brain (unless Noland’s regular pokémon were weaker). His pokémon got way more attacks in than Corphish and Swellow did yet were still the ones to get KOed. His battling strength isn’t what made him famous.
Diantha’s Base Gardevoir is the fastest Champion Ace (only 1 to be noted for being especially fast). Mastered Ash-Greninja is decisively faster than Base Gardevoir (it’s in my essay on A-G). MC-X was able to keep up with A-G in movement speed and 1 time was able to dash so quickly that A-G and Ash didn’t even have time to react despite their enhanced reflexes due to synchronization. I don’t really see how a pokémon that was no faster than SL Peakachu is keeping up with A-G or MC-X. Actually Darkrai has better speed than Latios based on feats since it dodged Sceptile’s Quick Attack and then was able to launch Dark Pulse faster than Sceptile could launch Leaf Storm.
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What’s your opinion on Pikachu vs Alain’s Base Charizard and vs MCX?
Genaller
Silver Soul
Kalos League Peakachu would’ve been able to have a fairly even and competitive match with Base Charizard had Peakachu been at full health (thanks in part to type advantage) though it’s not giving MC-X much trouble. (loses low - lower mid diff).
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Yeah, agreed, I personally believe that Peakachu could take Base Charizard down 6 or 7/10.
Genaller
Silver Soul
Perhaps 6 out of 10 due to type advantage. 7 out of 10 might be pushing it.
The opinions I find funniest are that MC-X is only good enough to draw with Darkrai or win but be damaged enough for Latios to beat it comfortably. People with such opions either A) don’t understand just how strong the E4 are or B) are grossly underestimating the boost offered by Mega Evolution particularly in MC-X’s case. I’m sorry, but a pokémon that lost to Heracross + Gible + Sceptile (Torkoal didn’t get any offense in, so he’s not counted) is not pushing a Pokémon that could eviscerate pokémon on Ash’s Sceptile’s lvl with negligible difficulty i.e. Remo’s Mega Garchomp (actually Remo’s M-Garchomp could debatably be even stronger than that lvl by the Kalos League).
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It’s the overration of Tobias for sure. People still believe him to be the ultimate dream crusher pulling out legendaries to cockblock Ash when in reality, if Ash played smart, he could have taken Tobias and not wasted like 3 Pokémon on it.
keepitsimple
site of lies
he wasted 4, even worse =(
Ash should have used Infernape against Darkrai lol. If only Ash had the sense to teach him Taunt
Genaller
Silver Soul
Oh yeah and I’m also gonna add that Metagross is more than capable of holding his own with a Tobias lvl legendary (would push it to a high diff fight). It had a competitive battle with Kalos League Peakachu after which Peakachu was able to only muster a short flurry at full power before battle damage and fatigue caught up to him causing his battle viability to plummet (Clemont confirms as much). Metagross also took out 4 of Remo’s Pokémon before being beaten by Rypherior (and even then it seems like Metagross weakened it enough for an easy revenge kill by Charizard), and since Remo is a league semi-finalist, we can assume that even his non-ace pokémon were reasonably strong.