Kuzehiko
That moment I found a lifetime treasure
Link please.
-
Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.
However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.
We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure. -
Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
Tobias vs Alain - The Saltiest Battle
- Thread starter Bortgreen
- Start date
Doppelgänger
Superancient Member
Twitter said:
This is actually not a recent tweet (2015), but I've been seeing screenshots of it circulating around the past week or so. I've bolded the key word, darake, which means "full of".
Emelie
Bookworm
But in DP he fought all of his battles on-screen, didn't he? In XY there were a lot of off-screen battles when Greninja just beats up the opponent with brute force. Take poor Astrid for example.
I don't think the on-screen battle with Alain and the other rivals were bad though. I think the off-screen battles were the weakest part of the Kalos league.
Kuzehiko
That moment I found a lifetime treasure
I think this is the tweet you're talking about. So Tobias did have a team full of legendaries after all, that's canon.
JustAStatistic
Super Casual Trainer
Watch them bring him back for the Galar league where he "surprises" us with a cover legend or something.
Genaller
Silver Soul
Your first statement is false. DP Ash had several off-screen battles including Twinleaf Festival matches and 2nd round of the Sinnoh League. Pretty sure it was Hawlucha who beat Mega Absol which actually blatantly undermines your point about Ash relying too much on Greninja. If any of Ash’s regional Aces wins the crown for being a glory hog in their region, it’s Infernape no contest (again double wins in gyms 5 through 8 and triple win against Paul).
XY Ash’s performance against Alain was flat-out superior to DP Ash’s performance against Paul in terms of raw trainer skill. https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ashs-goat-performance-as-a-trainer.662645/
Also here is every confirmed completed battle DP and XY Ash had: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/xy-ash-vs-dp-ash-battling-skill.664309/page-4#post-18809891
Last edited:
I'm surprised people seem to think Tobias would win. While Tobias has legendary pokemon, they lost against Ash's Sceptile/ Pikachu. We know that Ash's aces (Except ash greninja), are no where close to an elite four member's signature pokemon. Alain's Charizard X was capable of going toe to toe against Steven's metagross and even defeat an elite four member's signature mega.
Tobias also made a statement that Gible's draco meteor would've worked against all of his pokemon except Darkrai. If that were the case, Alain would totally destroy Tobias.
Alain's Charizard X could go toe to toe with Cynthia's Garchomp. I don't believe Tobias and his legendary team are anywhere close to that.
Not all legendaries are O.P. If Ash's sceptile and Pikachu are capable of defeating Tobias's Legendaries, that proves my point
Tobias also made a statement that Gible's draco meteor would've worked against all of his pokemon except Darkrai. If that were the case, Alain would totally destroy Tobias.
Alain's Charizard X could go toe to toe with Cynthia's Garchomp. I don't believe Tobias and his legendary team are anywhere close to that.
Not all legendaries are O.P. If Ash's sceptile and Pikachu are capable of defeating Tobias's Legendaries, that proves my point
Doppelgänger
Superancient Member
The only feat that matters in an Alain v. Tobias debate is Alain's defeat of Malva. Everything else is too subjective to compare. Even the 10 Mega Evolution feat isn't that impressive because Alain used items, while in a normal Pokemon battle you can't. Don't you think it's possible that if Ash used a Super Potion on Sceptile between the Darkrai and Latios battles, Sceptile might not have been OHKO'd?
As an Elite Four, Malva is one of the strongest trainers in Kalos.
However, a Mega doesn't mean anything, especially when the other E4 and Champion have Megas (negating the advantage) and how we don't know the baseline strength of Kalos versus other regions.
We also don't know where Malva ranks within the Elite Four.
Kalos could have the weakest baseline Champion and Elite Four, but make up the difference in strength with Mega Evolutions.
What we know about Sinnoh is it's a stronger overall region than Kanto.
Kanto and Sinnoh are the only regions with a Battle Frontier, which serves as a challenge beyond the Pokemon League, but below the Champion League (E4 challenge).
We know this because Ash couldn't beat Agatha after three Pokemon Leagues, but was able to (barely) beat the Kanto Battle Frontier shortly afterward.
However, Ash was not able to defeat Palmer with a x4 type advantage, although he might have if Grotle were fully evolved into Torterra.
Ash also used his Battle Frontier team against Tobias and lost 6-2.
What we can conclude from this is Tobias is well above the Kanto Battle Frontier, having easily vanquished Ash's Battle Frontier team, but Ash never used his Battle Frontier team against an Elite Four. This disparity puts Tobias at least considerably superior to a Frontier Brain, but questionably superior to an Elite Four and Champion.
What I will say is, pound-for-pound, Tobias' legends are stronger than Alain's non-Mega, non-legends, and would probably OHKO them. So in a best-case scenario, Alain is battling 3-5 legends without the benefit of items to heal Mega Charizard X. The odds are heavily stacked against him.
As an Elite Four, Malva is one of the strongest trainers in Kalos.
However, a Mega doesn't mean anything, especially when the other E4 and Champion have Megas (negating the advantage) and how we don't know the baseline strength of Kalos versus other regions.
We also don't know where Malva ranks within the Elite Four.
Kalos could have the weakest baseline Champion and Elite Four, but make up the difference in strength with Mega Evolutions.
What we know about Sinnoh is it's a stronger overall region than Kanto.
Kanto and Sinnoh are the only regions with a Battle Frontier, which serves as a challenge beyond the Pokemon League, but below the Champion League (E4 challenge).
We know this because Ash couldn't beat Agatha after three Pokemon Leagues, but was able to (barely) beat the Kanto Battle Frontier shortly afterward.
However, Ash was not able to defeat Palmer with a x4 type advantage, although he might have if Grotle were fully evolved into Torterra.
Ash also used his Battle Frontier team against Tobias and lost 6-2.
What we can conclude from this is Tobias is well above the Kanto Battle Frontier, having easily vanquished Ash's Battle Frontier team, but Ash never used his Battle Frontier team against an Elite Four. This disparity puts Tobias at least considerably superior to a Frontier Brain, but questionably superior to an Elite Four and Champion.
What I will say is, pound-for-pound, Tobias' legends are stronger than Alain's non-Mega, non-legends, and would probably OHKO them. So in a best-case scenario, Alain is battling 3-5 legends without the benefit of items to heal Mega Charizard X. The odds are heavily stacked against him.
CMButch
Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Despite Alain used items, I am pretty sure items don't work as they work in game since in games you can't have Pokemon being tired or exhausting, HP is the only that exists. MCX was healed but not all the way but he was still tired when he was battling Malva's MH. This means: MCX at beginning > MCX vs Malva > Malva's MH.
As some people pointed out in Kalos Team Flare arc it was pointed that MG and MM are put to be equal, that means Kalos E4 is equal to other E4 since as I said in other thread: now E4 have Mega and Z moves.Prime would have per say Mega Glalie who would be as strong as Malva's MH. Malva as E4 would rank as the weakest. I already presented that I think 4th E4>3rd E4 > 2nd E4> 1st E4. Sure it could mean all E4 are equal and there's no order, but IMO that's not a case. I think there should be order like with gyms. I don't see Viola's Surskit and Vivillon beating Wulfric's Avalugg and Abomasnow(Especially Mega).
Stronger based on what? Ash's journey which happened in past? Yeah, but if we're talking about regions in general, they're equal-like. Agatha > Frontier Brains except maybe Brandon( depending on Pokemon). Agatha's Gengar would beat Regice, but when it comes to Regirock/Registeel, it's tricky.
Tobias is not superior to E4 and Champion HAHAHHAHAHAH. Lol. Tobias' Darkrai got beat by Sceptile and Latios tied with Peakachu.We don't know his other Pokemon so we can't assume, but based on those two, E4 would beat Tobias, let alone Champion, IDK what are you eating to jump on conclusions like these. IDK about Darkrai and Latios vs Alain0's other 5 Pokemon but MCX would beat both Darkrai and Latios and as I said we don't know those other 4 Pokemon strength.
Lunanight
Well-Known Member
You know the "order" only exists in gens 1-4, right? Even in the actual XY games, all the E4 have the same levels and can be fought in any order. I never understood this notion that Malva is somehow the weakest E4 based on zero evidence whatsoever. All four Kalos E4 members are intended to be equals, both in the games and the anime, unlike the E4 in the first four gens. Just because Malva lost to Alain doesn't make her the weakest E4 member; it just means by the time of Mega Evolution Special Act 4, Alain's Mega Charizard X was stronger than any of the Kalos E4's Mega Pokemon in a 1v1 battle.
In the DP anime, Flint was implied to be the strongest of the E4, not Lucian. In fact, Lucian was probably the weakest of the Sinnoh E4 based on how he, Aaron, and Flint fought against Cynthia. As for the gym leaders, obviously Viola's Pokemon wouldn't beat Wulfric's but that has nothing to do with the order of gyms. IIRC, Falkner was stronger than several of the Johto gym leaders despite being the first gym leader. In the XY anime, Korrina was portrayed as a stronger trainer than the likes of Ramos/Valerie despite being an earlier gym leader.
Meanwhile in the OS, Sabrina was basically depicted as the strongest gym leader in Kanto, except for Giovanni while using Mewtwo. Granted that was mostly due to how broken Psychic-types were back in Gen 1 in terms of typing, but Sabrina was presented as being stronger than Blaine (and probably stronger than Giovanni without Mewtwo as well).
I think you're overselling Brandon's strength. Regirock is probably E4 non-ace level, maybe even E4 ace level at very best. But Registeel? It was merely on-par with Regice, and only beat Torkoal because Torkoal wasn't that strong either. Ash's Charizard would have crushed Registeel based on how relatively well a much weaker Pokemon like Torkoal did.
If anything, Agatha would sweep Brandon 6-2 (probably 6-1 or even 6-0 if Agatha switched Pokemon). Brandon was a strong trainer, and in a 1v1 battle Regirock could do well against Agatha, but his six Pokemon overall were not E4-level. Only Regirock can beat an E4 non-ace by itself, and Registeel+Regice together are about as strong as Regirock. Dusclops was slightly weaker than Registeel/Regice so its almost fodder unless it fights a heavily weakened Pokemon. Ninjask and Solrock are complete fodder under every single circumstances.
Now if Agatha wasn't allowed to switch Pokemon, then Brandon would definitely beat 2 of Agatha's Pokemon if he was sending out his Pokemon in order of strongest to weakest (Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Dusclops, then 5th and 6th would be Solrock/Ninjask in any order)
I'm not sure why people think Tobias would be Champion-level in the first place. The fact Darkrai even lost to Sceptile at all should show Tobias was never Champion-level. At best, Tobias is on-par with E4 members or just slightly weaker. Sceptile and Peakachu would have put up a strong fight in a 1v1 battle against an E4 Pokemon. Though anyone who unironically thinks Mega Charizard X can't beat Darkrai and Latios back-to-back is downplaying MCX.
At the very least, Tobias had to have at least one strong Pokemon to catch Darkrai or Latios (whichever he got first). Either way, Alain's base Charizard is E4-level and is stronger than Malva's base Houndoom. Mega Evolution doubles a Pokemon's speed and power across the board. Meaning that logically, Mega Charizard X would likely beat at least 3 of Tobias' legendaries before losing to the fourth, Metagross might be able to revenge kill said legendary (or at least force a tie), and then Tobias' 5th Pokemon would sweep the remainder of Alain's team. Long story short, Tobias would beat Alain 6-4 if we assume the other four Pokemon are as strong as Latios was (since its implied Darkrai was his strongest, albeit most frail Pokemon).
IIRC, Tobias even say Gible would have beat any Pokemon with Draco Meteor except Darkrai. He said the exact opposite, that Gible could have likely KO'd Darkrai if Draco Meteor hit. The fact he said that despite having a Latios suggests that Darkrai has much weaker defenses/HP compared to his other five Pokemon that are capable of tanking much stronger attacks. It also means that Latios could tank a super-effective Draco Meteor and suggests Latios is significantly more bulky than Darkrai.
CMButch
Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Speaking of order I didn't mean in game order specifically, I mean any kind of order, in games Drasna is fourth and in anime she could be 2nd.Also funny how you use game mechanics in Kalos despite game mechanics being different in other regions( Flint > Lucian in anime, while in games: Lucian > Flint.) That proves that game mechanics can't be used in Kalos, thus there's some order in it aswell.
I find it hard to believe that any order would exist in Gen 1-4, and somehow magically disappear as of Kalos. You stated yourself that Flint is implied to be strongest E4, but somehow Kalos E4 would be equal? Malva is implied to be weakest E4 than others.Alain's MCX by that time in Act 4 is not stronger than all Kalos E4. Again if you're gonna use "Flint is stronger than any other Sinnoh E4" then you must use ??? is stronger than other Kalos E4".Based on your logics: Wulfric > Viola and Flint > Lucian but somehow Malva = Siebold per say or Siebold = Drasna. If Flint > Lucian there is obviously like Drasna > Malva. Yes, Malva would be the weakest Kalos E4 until proven otherwise( like with Flint, Flint was weaker than Lucian( in game) until it was proven that he's stronger in anime).Malva in game is weaker than Siebold, so is anime until it was proven otherwise( which isn't (yet)). Elaborate on why everything must have order except Kalos E4?And don't just drop off and stop replying like you did on other thread when I debunked you. Similar to gym leaders, I didn't specifically meant game-wise but any order of gym like, Viola > Wulfric, thus there's some order when it comes to gyms.
Well yeah, thus I said it'd be tricky but Agatha would've still beaten Regis, although not easy.
We don't know how strong is Tobias, maybe he's on par with weakest E4, it's been said he has full team of legendaries. Also, those people are "Doppleganger" which baffles my why he thinks like that.
Legendaries don't mean strong Pokemon as seen multiple times, Legendaries could even be as strong as gym level or little beyond. So, if Tobias' remaining team is beyond Gym level, I can see MCX beating at least 5 Pokemon while losing to 6th and Metagross beating that.
Last edited:
Doppelgänger
Superancient Member
Hoenn was retconned in the anime to be more powerful than it was originally. Steven was just an archeologist during AG, not the Champion - that was Wallace. When we next see Kanto, Misty and Brock have Mega Evolutions, while Cerulean City and Celadon City (in M20) are redesigned, all featuring modern battlefields and the updated Pokemon League symbol.
What this tells me is that whenever regions are revisited, they go through retcons to update them to new mechanics, and the most glaring example is adjusting for power level. Only two Gyms in Kalos (the supposed origin of Megas) had Mega Evolutions, but the two originally weakest Gyms in Kanto have it now too. What's more, Pewter has a Rhyperior who was able to heavily pressure a Latias in battle. This, after showing Tobias' legendaries OHKO'ing Ash's Battle Frontier team an episode before. That Forrest's Rhyperior wasn't OHKO'd by Latias, landed three Megahorns and tanked one Ice Beam and two Steel Wings, shows that regions go through upgrades in the background to float alongside the rising baseline power level.
How are rookies going to handle Pewter Gym when it has a Mega Steelix who can eat super-effective Z-Moves, and a Rhyperior who could pressure a Latias? Pewter suddenly looks like the strongest Gym in the anime. And then you have Misty and her Mega Gyarados on the other side of Mt. Moon.
What this means is that Kalos, at best, is no stronger a region than others. This would make sense because two rookie trainers made it to the semifinals of the Kalos League, one without the benefit of Mega Evolution. Two rookies had access to Megas in Sawyer and Trevor. That would suggest an easier league than in the past, where trainers like Paul or Harrison would wipe out rookies.
What this tells me is that whenever regions are revisited, they go through retcons to update them to new mechanics, and the most glaring example is adjusting for power level. Only two Gyms in Kalos (the supposed origin of Megas) had Mega Evolutions, but the two originally weakest Gyms in Kanto have it now too. What's more, Pewter has a Rhyperior who was able to heavily pressure a Latias in battle. This, after showing Tobias' legendaries OHKO'ing Ash's Battle Frontier team an episode before. That Forrest's Rhyperior wasn't OHKO'd by Latias, landed three Megahorns and tanked one Ice Beam and two Steel Wings, shows that regions go through upgrades in the background to float alongside the rising baseline power level.
How are rookies going to handle Pewter Gym when it has a Mega Steelix who can eat super-effective Z-Moves, and a Rhyperior who could pressure a Latias? Pewter suddenly looks like the strongest Gym in the anime. And then you have Misty and her Mega Gyarados on the other side of Mt. Moon.
What this means is that Kalos, at best, is no stronger a region than others. This would make sense because two rookie trainers made it to the semifinals of the Kalos League, one without the benefit of Mega Evolution. Two rookies had access to Megas in Sawyer and Trevor. That would suggest an easier league than in the past, where trainers like Paul or Harrison would wipe out rookies.
ash&charizardfan
Humans are tools
Sawyer is to date one of the strongest rivals ash has to date, even though his progress was way too fast and unbelievable why do people always forget that paul had a poor team before coming back to sinnoh even after travelling throughout 3 regions, that guy is overrated, harrison's team wasn't also very great he was good but most of the later rivals were better than him.
CMButch
Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
The only logical explanation I have for rookies is if they get Mega stone on their journey, not everyone starts in Pallet town. But if someone does start, there's actually like anime-exclusive locations where he can get Mega Evo. Like, there are Beedrill in Veridian forest , so guy/girl can catch it and there's Mega stone in there, since Veridian Forest is big. Or maybe there's something in Veridian city or other cities/forests before Pewter.
Genaller
Silver Soul
I already understand that what you say most often is a joke, but I need to address how laughably atrocious your point here is. Even if other regions have been updated with modern mechanics like Mega Evolution, Mega Evolution would still partly contribute to the Kalos League iteration that Ash competed in being at a higher lvl overall than any of the past league iterations for other regions that Ash competed in. Also lmao your point about ‘rookies’ is meaningless since rookie = weak is a fallacy and you have no way of proving that there were no rookies amongst the semi-finalists of the other leagues.
345ash-greninja
Auto-Memories Doll
Riolu only evolved mid-battle though.
Doppelgänger
Superancient Member
He's probably from Kalos.
Kuzehiko
That moment I found a lifetime treasure
Yeah I know but I personally expected that to happen since he had Lucario in BW2.