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Trade Shop Rule Confusion?

Discussion in 'Serebii.net Discussion' started by Green Blockhead, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. So you aren't allowed to use cheating devices, yet nearly most trade shops clone/clone-back their Pokemon or the ones you traded using none other than Action Replay. Either I'm missing something or the moderators have no idea what's going on in shops.

    Would appreciate clarification.
     
  2. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

    If that goes on, then report the specific cases to the mods as we do NOT allow cheat devices in any way, shape or form on this site
     
  3. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    On that note, in say 4th gen games cloning is possible without the use of AR (e.g. the GTS clone glitch). If you know someone is using AR to clone then that's not on, but if it's just a glitch like that then it's not really using a cheating device.
     
  4. You might as well check every single trade shop and wipe out cloners. I bet if I were to randomly pick 5 trade shops, 4 of them would clone.
     
  5. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    Out of interest, I'll take you up on that statement slowly for...say 10 (bit bigger sample size than 5 anyways)

    Top 10 threads of the trade shop section in 5th gen:
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?583611-Kevin24-s-4th-5th-gen-event-shop-V-2 No mention of cloning
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?564210-KiltedTrainer-and-Miss-Wolveram-s-Trade-Boutique - cloning, AR mentioned.
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?576677-SmeargleRocks-shiny-Spinda-shop - no cloning, although 'knows someone who can'
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?530729-Rayce-and-Nero-Trade-Shop - cloning
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?564753-The-Otashop - no mention of cloning
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?543691-SuperWho-Trade-Shop - clones
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?517357-Ginji-s-shiny-and-event-shop - no mention of cloning
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?565653-Awesome105-s-Trade-Shop - clones
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?531050-Liams-event-trades - no mention of cloning
    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?569632-The-Magikarp-mall - clones

    So not quite 4/5 average, but 5/10 do offer it (usually with AR mentioned) and one mentions knowing someone who can (vague).


    As such, I'll bring it up with the trade mods and sometime soon this'll be addressed. Imo I'd think possibly an announcement to make people aware of the rule and remove such services ('grace period', if you will) before we crack down on it may be the way we'll go (it will take time to check every thread after all), but we'll see.

    I'd still say cloning should be allowed, but not through the use of AR/pokesav/etc. More discussion on that is welcome though!
     
  6. Kevin24

    Kevin24 Event Collector

    i say cloning is fine with ar. you are in no way modifying or altering the pokemon in any way. you are just cloning it. cause it would't really be fair to crack down on those who clone with ar since alot of people with shops do and if that happened then how could they do it? it would seriously impede the trade shops.
     
  7. Thank you bob. I don't like the sound of third-party programs. As you said, cloning with glitches in Emerald/4th Gen GTS is fine, but I fear that GameFreak put in some kind of system that detects hacks and gets you banned from WiFi... I don't know I just feel that way xD
     
  8. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    Thing is, these are Joe (Serebii's) forums, and what is allowed here is ultimately up to him... and over the years he has remained against any form of use of cheating devices like AR, even for innocent stuff. I imagine in part it is because these aren't really legal from the viewpoint of game freak/whatnot so you got that issue for the forum coming into play.

    If it affects trade shops...well, them's the breaks I guess? But hence why I don't mind a discussion of this here and then we'll see what Joe thinks.

    As for ways they could do it, as mentioned the 4th gen GTS clone glitch is an avenue. Idk how legit file backups come into play here (which is how some people do it and that doesn't involve cheat devices afaik) so I'll let others better versed with this comment on that aspect though.
     
  9. Rayce

    Rayce _

    I'd like to put this here. My shop is a perfect example of this.

    Cloning via AR is considered legal in the internet community, mostly among veterens and seasoned traders. My partner does not allow clones, and states this. So what I'd like to say is if someone doesn't want clones / doesn't clone, they should state it. Blockhead did have a point, more people clone than not. I say if someone doesn't want clones, they should state it instead of the flipside.
     
  10. That's totally fine, but the fact of the matter is cloning is against the rules regardless.

    Real trading is about two sides losing something in exchange for something of the same value or higher. You lose something you either liked or did not need, and get something you want, usually of higher value, in return.

    It's really unfair and especially saddening to hear that you traded that Shiny Pidgeot, something you valued in your game, for a shiny Fearow, only to hear that your partner cloned that Fearow and lost nothing.
     
  11. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    Just to clarify, there's nothing stated that cloning isn't allowed, just that use of cheat devices for any servives is not allowed.

    As for trade agreemenets I believe people have clauses such as 'no retrading' or whatnot? So such agreements cover those cases which is up to the people trading to agree on, and not imo very relevant to if AR, etc forms of cloning ought to be allowed. Some people are fine with cloning in which cases imo it should be allowed, but how said cloning happens is the issue.
     
  12. NoToRiousBrawL

    NoToRiousBrawL Stones of Baked Clay

    I've been relatively inactive in the trading community in here ,but I believe if u folks ban cloning ,then I can assure you that only 2-5 tiny shops will abide that ,and the rest will be wiped off the map :D ...
     
  13. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    Again, the issue here is to not ban cloning, but perhaps ban cloning done by AR or other cheating devices/methods (which is a current rule anyways).

    If that alone wipes it off the map then I'd be surprised given surely the primary point of trading pokemon is to, well, trade them to get stuff you don't have, not to clone them. If people are too tied to a particular pokemon to trade it, that's their choice in the end, but a lot of trades don't rely on that, I'd think. (e.g. people who want to complete the dex, pokes with egg moves or DW pokes, etc).
     
  14. Rayce

    Rayce _

    AR Cloning has been used since i've been here (That's one and a half years now), I really don't understand why banning it would solve anything. As I mentioned, AR cloning is one of the "legal" codes accepted by the community. It literally makes an exact copy; it doesn't alter the Pokemon in anyway. The only difference I see is AR cloning is faster. You can clone a lot of Pokemon with minimal effort and minimal time. It's like saying would you rather drive or fly across the US; sure, flying costs money, but it saves a lot of time.
     
  15. Yeah... that's not going to happen. Gamefreak simply doesn't care.
     
  16. dewey911p

    dewey911p primus inter pares

    I've traded with people who don't like clones befoe and so what I did was RNG another pokemon EXACTLY like the one they wanted. Let's say the rules are strictly enforced and any mention of AR cloning is dealt with with an instant ban, well then expect to see "AR" disappear from every trade shop but cloning services remain. There are other means of cloning in gen 5 and gen 4 (as bobandbill pointed out.). I own an AR and I have used it to clone before, both when I was actively trading on here and for other personal uses (trying out different EV spreads or move sets and the like) but before I ever owned an AR, I was cloning pokemon via fake GTS distribution servers and .pkm files. Whether or not this would fall under the cheating "devices" is still ambiguous (it isn't really a device so much as a service), but that is a method of cloning that involves nothing more than a pokemon game, a DS system, and Wi-Fi.

    Let's go further though and assume that this method is banned as well (even though it just uses the GTS, same as the 4th gen glitch that seems to be acceptable as a cloning method thus far) and assume that CLONING is banned in general. This will severely limit the trading of events for sure (which seems to be all the rage these days) but for other pokemon, there are still ways around this. Let's go back to my first example of when I would trade with people who didn't like clones. I had some pokemon that I RNGed and someone wanted them, we set up a trade but I didn't really want to just get rid of my pokemon like that. After all, I put time and effort into RNGing it and I might want to use that pokemon myself in the future. So what to do? Simple, RNG another one, and so I did. Now here is where things get interesting! When I RNG a pokemon, I like to collect 4 eggs at a time and then hatch them all in case something went wrong in the process. Well as luck would have it, everything went right for two of the four eggs. Now I had 2 flawless shiny pokemon for the trade, but the trade was only for one. I could have kept the other success, but I already had the same pokemon and it would have just wasted precious PC space, so I told the guy I was trading with he could have them both if he wanted. I figured since he doesn't clone and since he doesn't like clones, this will give him a pokemon for himself and something to trade around, naturally he said yes. But you see, the 2 pokemon he received in that trade, were 100% identical, right down to the PID. After all, I was aiming for one pokemon and I hit the mark twice. If you were to look at the information for the pokemon side by side, down to the very last hex value, you would see that they were unequivocally the same pokemon.

    What is the point of of this story you ask? Even if you ban cloning or just the use of AR and similar devices to clone, it will be impossible to tell if a pokemon was truly cloned, or if the person just did the same thing more than once. Sure you can weed out a few. Say the person doesn't know what RNG even means, obviously they will never get the same pokemon twice. Say events are involved, those are limited in distribution so at a certain point, they should run out (unless methods that involve the GTS are allowed, in which case, even events can be cloned infinitely, though the process is much harder). But in the end, it will be an impossible rule to enforce as it is impossible to tell if the pokemon was cloned via AR, RNGed twice with the same seed and info, cloned via GTS distributions, or if A person just happens to have a huge collection of pokemon through many trades on other forums where cloning is allowed or from here when cloning was still going on. Unless they specifically say "I clone with an AR" there really won't be any way of knowing if they clone or not.

    tl;dr Even if you ban cloning via AR, the practice will continue as there are MANY other ways to get an exact copy of the pokemon, some methods, like RNGing, are even common and valid methods of obtaining pokemon. Banning AR cloning will simply result in people removing those 2 letters from their trade thread and probably little more. As for enforcement, well that would truly be a Sisyphean task as it would be impossible to know what was going on unless the party expressly stated an AR was used, which is very likely not going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  17. bobandbill

    bobandbill Winning Smile Staff Member Super Mod

    A fair point, certainly. I wouldn't worry about the last point though; in my experience people say dumb things often (e.g. in PM, forgetting people can report them, in Vms to people to say 'hey I'm the alt of ___ haha mods won't catch me', etc... and no, I'm not making that up. -_-)

    At any rate still up to Joe on the cloning ban with AR, but as said it's not easy for mods to verify exactly how everyone clones if they do. OH WELL
     
  18. Dangertrout

    Dangertrout Well-Known Member

    Banning AR cloning would be hard to enforce, but maybe imposing a rule for shops to state what method they use to clone would be a good idea.
    At least then the people who care about which cloning method is used would know which shops to not do business with.
     
  19. munchlaxguy

    munchlaxguy The Rolling Thunder

    I beileve the AR cloning needs to be banned its kinda ruining the game IMO.
     
  20. Kevin24

    Kevin24 Event Collector

    just because a few people whine about it doesn't mean it should. perhaps a rule should be made to shops stating what method is used to clone and if people who trade don't want or like clones they can avoind that shop all together. why try to screw other people over because you don't like cloning via ar. get over it.
     

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