Tradition: How strong is its stranglehold?

[Eszett]

Throughout this post I'll be working with what we know about D/P, so be wary of any generalizations I may make regarding the generation as a whole.

Anyways, I was tempted to think about this considering what has happened in generations past and what we know about this generation: so far, many things are falling into place. For example have Grass/Fire/Water starters, an inordinate amount of Water Pokemon, an unobtainable legendary, and, since GSC, pre-evolutions and/or evolutions for old Pokemon even if they serve no purpose, and a plethora of other trends about which I hope most of you are aware. So far, we have seen two of those which I have mentioned to hold integrity with what we know about the fourth generation. I'm sure it can be well-agreed that three Water types, and pure ones at that, is excessive for a set of nine Pokemon, and that we really didn't Bonsly, Manene, and especially Tamanta to assist their older counterparts.

Yet, within this generation and those past, trends are being shattered before our very eyes. We get pure Ice types, more than one Dark type with some semblance of a Special Attack, an upheaval of the stat calculation system, and foremost an entire new format of data in the third generation alone. Now with the fourth generation coming ever the closer, we get pure Flying Pokemon and the so-seeming successor to Mew's legacy not supporting a telltale Psychic typing. Our scope definitely limited, but it certainly shows that some things are not as sacrosanct as they appear to be.

So, the question I ask you: How strong do you think will traditions hold in this game?

 

[Raito]

Maybe they are starting over since it is a new platform and this generation is supposed to be big so...

 

[hIrAm]

Well, I think for the most part, everything will be somewhat closely related to previous games, such as the starters and whatnot. The only things that would happen, would be small, and not much of a problem, like your pointing out of Manaphy's typing, not being Psychic and whatnot. So, imo, it'll stay quite the same.

You're posting a lot of new threads this evening Eszett .... [/off-topic]

 

[Eszett]

I'm making up for lost time. D:

My stand on this: While I don't think such things as having 50 TMs and some number of HMs will change, I predict a great deal of experimentation when it comes to the Pokemon themselves. Generally, if something is mutable in the code, I think they'll make an endeavor to alter that aspect.

 

[MetalMario]

Funny. I think that one of the traditions that they will break will be the number of TMs. This is because, for the first time between generations, we will have the opportunity to trade items into the newer generation. This implies that, unless they apply some kind of massive blockade on trading certain items in, they'll somehow have to fit the existing set of 50 TMs into the new generation. The two easiest, logical options both involve breaking the 50 TM barrier:

1. Keeping the same set of 50 and enumerating all new TMs with numbers greater than 50.
2. Replacing some TMs, but keeping them present in the game under different numbers. For instance, Bullet Seed is TM09. If you trade a poke to D/P holding that TM, D/P may identify it as, say, TM59, yet it would still teach Bullet Seed. Given this, you would only encounter TMs 01-50 in the main game without trading from a GBA version.

 

[Eszett]

Hmm, perhaps I should entertain the thought again? Way back when I made a thread about that subject with the primary desire to make Crunch more accessible for all Pokemon, but it was generally thought not to occur by the then-residents at the D/P board. I'm thinking the first option would be the more likely one, though I'm thinking that the new moves they wish to include would simply replace the junk-heap TMs we have now, such as Bullet Seed.

But hey, I'm keeping my original statement for now; I like the scintillating discussion to which this is leading.

 

[AJ Flibble]

Traditions?

50 TMs
Grass/Water/Fire starters
Rattata and Pidgey like Pokemon
Abundance of Water types
Babies
Evolutions
Unobtainable legendary
Psuedo-legendary

I bet every signle one of those things will be in D/P. I'm also gearing myself up to be bitterly disappointed with the expected repetitiveness. I'm sorry, but this is the senseless Nintendo here, wasting good chances...

 

[Metal Force]

Well I think that they should change the starters type & it would be not only 3 it would be 5 or 6.
Also I would to see more pure typs mostly ice/ghost/dragon/flying.

 

[Quackers]

There is one thing that I hope breaks the traditions, the number of water types. I wouldn't mind a new Magikarp Pokemon, a couple deep sea Pokemon, and a few surfing Pokemon, but not a ton of them. Instead, I think there should be a large number of a diffrent starter type, fire. To me, it seems like if you don't pick the fire starter, then you can't get a fire type untill late in the game. Its probably just me, but I think that the fire type is neglected.

 

[The Benmeister]

It's not just you, for one thing there was only six new fire Pokemon in the Hoenn region (excluding the starter chain then three, and it's also three if you refer to their families - Torchic, Numel and Torkoal), and for another thing, excluding the starters, there are no three stage fire Pokemon.

I'm hoping they pair up Ghost, Ice, Fire, Electric, Steel, Dragon and others with each other to make more unique typings, and not the same old traditional Normal/Flying, Bug/Flying, Grass/Poison etc. For example, a Steel/Dragon with Levitate would only have Fighting as a weakness.

Reading the TM thing earlier...I suppose they might have to mkae more, when you think about it. Either that or they restrict the TM's traded.

 

[DarkSpectrum]

Well.. they will have to keep at least some things the same to deal with the 3rd gen being uploaded into the 4th. Shuffling things around like TM numbers and maybe appearences of regular types on pokemon will probably occur but i don't think too much will change unless it is tied into the new DS capabilities: touch screen, microphone, etc.

 

[PDL]

I think the TM system of 50 TMs may change even though TMs are tradeable.

It's possible that you could trade a pokemon with a TM, like say the TM for Focus Punch into DP, where it's now a TM for a new technique. The TM's still TM 01, but the move has now changed from Focus Punch to the new attack. It might be possible to trade a TM for a new technique into RSE and have it come out as an old technique from the RSE games.

of course, there are probably still restrictions on which pokemon can be traded, such as new ones or old ones with new moves, and maybe entirely new items, but TMs would probably change when they're traded between different generations

 

[Pika_Princess]

I think a simple way to fix the TM problem would simply be, "No pokemon can be holding an item/tm when traded". And keep in mind, a new move can't go back in time, so I bet that they would either make the tm revert, or just not let in any tm's past number 50.
Of course, for all we know, all the new moves may come in the form of move tutors.
Another tradition that holds strong is the 8 gym leaders per region. I've noticed that they never had a gym devoted to the ground type (I know, giovanni had some but his gym was pretty mixed). Do you think that they may add more gyms this gen? I doubt it.

 

[Eszett]

As for the TMs, I think a possible plot device might be that you have to fetch an "enumerater card" from the TM factory or wherever the TMs are made, and this would allow you to gain all the TMs from the older generation. A new set of 50 TMs, including some of those from the past generation, would be devised for the game, and these would all be obtainable within D/P. However, those TMs that are not within this set of 50 (i.e. you cannot get them within D/P) yet are from the old 3rd generation set would be assigned some number beyond 50; in effect, it would be "re-enumerated". Without the card, you cannot trade TMs between older games.

 

[Orion-Sama]

Pokémon is, easily, the most traditionalist of all Nintendo franchises. Despite the few add-ons to the core gameplay and all that, the main structure remains the same. Not that it should be changed, at least as far as the battling system goes. More involvement or action would be welcome, though.

I do think Pokémon should detach from some of those traditions, for it'll end up making it stale (If it isn't already.) and just, to quote a staffer from a videogame magazine here, "Bread with the same". I think they've made a good job with the Pokémon so far, and while it's true the franchise is, and should be devoted to them, I also believe a change in the overall quest is needed.

It was such a godsend to have games that moved away from the now-boring GYM/Elite trend in Pokémon Colosseum/XD. While it's evident they could've done it MUCH better, it can be said that its main enjoyment was the fact that it wasn't the classic quest. Now the focus was on the evil organization in turn, which expectedly trumped all others so far. Now... while deviating from this quest would be ideal, they could still keep GYMs and the Elite, but not Monotype-based. Enough is enough. The quest should be at the VERY least mildly challenging. Diverse GYMs aunated to the "Set" Battle Style option would make it that more challenging, as Colosseum/XD were. And even then, they were fairly easy, yet much harder than any cart has ever been...

I like the idea of more than 50 TMs, though. That'd add a rather nice twist, and more attack diversity. I'm all for it...

As for other traditions... they aren't as bad. I do have a pet peeve with the Water superavit, though. However, here's hoping they just don't go overboard... again. They probably will, because this franchise thrives on tradition, but as long as other Types get enough spotlight (Not really so far...) and interesting Pokémon arrive, it should be OK. Pre-Evos are bleah. Fact is, there are very few that'd be viable. Lke a calf Pre-Evo for Tauros/Miltank. Would unify those Pokémon, give Tauros breeding moves, and add a new variant of evolution: based on gender. Others are useless unless they actually add to the original, as Wynaut did.

Evolved forms of old Pokés are always good. Alternative evolutions are a good concept, but if there's any this time, they should pull it masterfully and make it as good as the original evolution, and not like the ones we have now. All clearly inferior to their "equal"...

In short, Nintendo should tell Game Freak to take some risks for once. Still, Pokémon hasn't got a place in gamer's hearts so far, as franchises like Mario, Zelda and Metroid have. And as PDL brings up often, most of the fandom is... you know. Here's hoping D/P breaks a few settings, though. As much as I doubt it...

 

[AJ Flibble]

Maybe they might. I'll either be insanely gobsmacked or pleased, or bitterly disappointed. I just want to see more Pokemon designs as well, that's the bast part...

They just need to change things really, change the Pokemon types you see early on, give us more decent Bugs, less Waters, but then they'll be the Grass/Fire/Water starter, which I hope stays to be honest. Some traditions are good, but others need to be changed, Buizeru is already looking like a boring Water (sorry, even if you're cute and all), and there's an insane number of babies.

 

[Tropical Spirit]

Orion ftw. :\ Like it or not, Pokemon is a franchise for kids. Kids don't like changes, as they make their brain hurt. Like I said in another thread, they tried to change with colo, but they wasted all the friggen' potential. And when they did that they gave up, which explains why XD is a lot more kiddy-ish.

...So, yeah, I don't think any main stuff will change. The TM number is a good idea, but I think that's the farthest they might go.

 

[-Koumori-]

More then 50 TMs is something that I was looking forward to, as well. MetalMario, Eszett, I like what I see. Getting some sort of special item would be a great way to get it done; it doesn't matter when it happens in the game. We probably won't be able to trade between the third and fourth generation games until after the Elite Four. >_>

While it would be nice for that to change, I know many people would use their high-leveled Pokemon to go through the game quickly. Myself, I wouldn't, because I'm not spending $50 to rush through a game that I've been waiting for long enough with Pokemon I've raised while I waited. I like the Starter type trio and hope it stays the same, and I don't want any more then three starters to choose from. Less Water-types would be nice, but unlikely. Then again, with the tradition breakers that Eszett mentioned, it's all up in the air for now. A three-stage, non starter Fire-type Pokemon would be a pleasant surprise, and to have more Fire-types EARLY in the game instead of always waiting until towards the end. As you can tell I agree with most of what's been said in here. This could be the Generation of {small} changes.

 

[Wolf Goddess]

Kids don't like changes, as they make their brain hurt. Like I said in another thread, they tried to change with colo, but they wasted all the friggen' potential. And when they did that they gave up, which explains why XD is a lot more kiddy-ish.

True, though I'd hope that the makers realize children could be willing to go for something different if it's thought-out.

We do need some changes. The franchise as a whole has gotten rather stale. I don't see the battle-system changing, of course, but alot of other things could be changed. However, for the most part, I don't think that things need to be changed as much as built upon; rather than changing something entirely, upgrade it. Even though these games have had upgraded graphics, almost everything else has remained that same. We need to upgrade things, such as the AI, rather than just adding new Pokemon in.

Though most of the traditions listed here are rather minor, so I don't really mind if they stick around or not. We need less water types, and I love Eszett's idea for the TMs.

 

[Nomytaker]

I think a simple way to fix the TM problem would simply be, "No pokemon can be holding an item/tm when traded".

What about item evolution trades?