There are now five of us here; I would say that Eszett and Coronis are of the pessimistic opinion that "profit reigns supreme", while Meowth17 and not_awake form the more intrigued and open-minded party. Whatever our opinions, what matters most is that we are able to engage in an intelligent discussion, not dismissing one another.
Meowth17 said:
I completely agree. I think most of us expected something along the lines of "Pokémon: ThunderYellow Version", but forgot about it.
Because of this we can notice something: we (in "we" I mean fans of the franchise) forgot it because all we care about right now is DP; but Nintendo put it to hold because all they care about right now, is making a "DS debut" for Pokémon (Ranger, Trozei, Dungeon).
This takes us to GaFr and Nintendo. You know what's next.
So... GaFr can't release info on "codename Yellow" (lol) because that will take attention from the "Path" games... look where this line of thought has taken me.
You have got the picture perfectly; that should be Nintendo's line of thought. In contrast, if all there is on the agenda are Diamond and Pearl, which are by no means a secret, I fail to see an explanation as to why the focus has to be on the side-games. As written in the editorial, "the spin-off games would not have been 'threatened' by sharing the limelight of advertisement with games of different genre meant to be released well after." On the other hand, if a third game is involved, it complicates matters a great deal.
This makes me think that now that we have the "Path" games on sale (mostly) Nintendo can finally reveal the final 3d gen game... but where,and when? E3!
If we didn't know right know the important stuff regards Twilight Princess, I would guess this has something to do with the important announcement Nintendo will make on May 9th...
Indeed, Nintendo's role in the E3 event is said to be dedicated to Twilight Princess and Revolution. Diamond and Pearl are on the same level of "weight" as these two - a large project whose development is known to all - so one would think Nintendo would opt to include them, as well. Regardless of the reason, E3 will not shed light on Diamond and Pearl. A smaller project which has been kept in the dark, however, is liable to make it to the event without prior notice, as was the case last year with XD.
Eszett said:
With that being said, I would expect that this game would need to incorporate some drastic tie-in to the fourth generation games beyond simply trading from it and them.
That is the point; the game would be closer to the fourth generation than the rest of the third generation games. It would not only be the third game to FireRed and LeafGreen, but also the epitome of the
Path to Diamond and Pearl. Does anyone truly find Ranger, let alone Trozei and Mysterious Dungeon, to be reflecting on the fourth generation? Do these games gratify the veteran Japanese players who have memories of playing Red and Green in 1996? If the third game were to see release, it would do just that.
But if to shed light on one probable way for the game to tie in to the Diamond Pearl - Wonder News comes in mind. Asides from Japanese players, to most "Wonder News" means an inaccessible bit of code in Mystery Gift. When the Joyspot service was available in retail stores across Japan, players had the opportunity of receiving news pertaining to the games in one way or another. The news would appear on the GBA screen, as seen
here. As part of this privilege, players were gradually introduced to Deoxys through pieces of news, at a time when no one was supposed to know of this Phantom Pokémon. Similarly, before Emerald was released information on its new aspects had been distributed to FireRed/LeafGreen players through Wonder News.
The release of the third game would also signify the revival of Wonder News, this time extending its use from beyond Japan. Wonder News could substitute CoroCoro and other passing sources of news; we would learn about Diamond and Pearl and the new Pokémon therein from Game Freak itself.
Considering that, as you have mentioned, all of the Pokemon have been distributed in Japan at least, there is little need for such a game that will likely merely be an essential repeat of Fire Red and Leaf Green. While the games could be of assistance in getting the still-unaccessible Pokemon to other parts of the world, it's nothing that Diamond and Pearl cannot themselves handle.
This is not entirely correct; Deoxys is one Pokémon that a hoard of Japanese players would attest to not having in possession. Unlike Jirachi and Mew whose distribution was not limited to the movie promotion, Deoxys has yet to be made available by other means. That is to say, anyone who did not purchase the movie ticket, if for no other reason than lack of interest in the anime, was deprived of an opportunity that is meant to be free of charge. Those players had been introduced to Deoxys through Wonder News, and later on, were made aware of Speed Deoxys - which only served to amplify their desperation. Incidentally, Birth Island's presence in Emerald falls under the category of unused data, with there being no way to transfer the Aurora Ticket from FireRed/LeafGreen to Emerald.
As for Diamond and Pearl, a new generation embodies a departure from another. While it will be possible for one to trade Pokémon from one's third generation games, then sharing them with others across the globe - is it a written rule that everyone will find a peer able of such a gesture? It seems to me that a stranger will be unwilling to trade a rare Pokémon no longer obtainable unless a proper return is promised, leading us to a fairly bleak environment of gaming that Game Freak is clearly against supporting. In the fourth generation, players will be encouraged to cooperate with one another whenever possible, but Game Freak will see that everyone is given equal opportunities. I am suggesting the same will be done in the remaining period of the third generation, since the idea has clearly been in development.
Coronis said:
When you brought up this discussion to me earlier this year, I actually accepted the possibility that a third game was being worked on in secrecy, to be revealed on the 10th anniversary as some form of celebration. But with the anniversary come and gone, I really don't see why we wouldn't have at least learnt of something about it by now, with every announced 'Path to D/P' games released and all.
It is only now that the
Path to Diamond and Pearl as we know it has passed its climax, so I do not see how judgment can already be made. Again, the third game could have been released even before the anniversary, but Nintendo's strategy rendered a complete halt of
anything related to the traditional games. If the third game is not announced next month, I will concede any hope of its eventual release, but until then the evidence deserves to be examined.
Emerald was made to accomodate Mew, and XD was made so that Lugia could be obtained without going to an event, like its counterpart Ho-Oh. In a sense you could also say it makes it easier to obtain hard-to-capture Safari Zone pokemon in FRLG. But for this purported third game, I really see no purpose it could serve in this category, and naturally, people who have spent enough on the existing games aren't going to spend more for nothing.
Emerald was certainly not made to accommodate Mew; the majority did not know of its inclusion until the Pokémon Festa event, where the Old Sea Map was distributed for the first time. The event took place nearly a year after Emerald's release.
I feel that most players were so confused by the lack of older-generation Pokémon in Ruby and Sapphire, that they were led to view the games which followed as mere expansions meant to complement the PokéDex number. Let us not forget that Crystal served no such purpose, nor did the original Yellow. But as if offering all Phantom Pokémon in an organized format were not enough (as Crystal did with Celebi), the third game could also "repeat" both Emerald and XD with appropriate improvements. Excluding Lugia and Ho-oh (and Altering Cave Pokémon), there are 62 Johto Pokémon obtainable between FireRed and LeafGreen, a number which could reach the 100 proximity in the third game. I have always found it suspicious that there are trainers on Sevii Islands using unobtainable Pokémon, such as Hoothoot, Girafarig, Sunflora and Snubbull. By adding these Pokémon to the game in a likewise manner to Emerald's Safari Zone, not only would the oddity be solved, but the game would surpass the "maximum" number of obtainable Pokémon set by the second generation games. One of the Johto starters would be given by Prof. Oak as a reward for completing the Kanto PokéDex, similar to Emerald and XD. All the new Move Tutors introduced in Emerald and XD would find their respective places, as would potential new Move Tutors.
I would also like to add that the Japanese Blue was unique in increasing the appearance rate of previously rare Pokémon, such as the Safari Zone's Tauros and Kangaskhan. In addition, Jynx was made available in the wild, at Seafoam Islands (Farfetch'd could be found on Routes 12 and 13 in Yellow). The third game would stay true to the original versions in this regard; it would be more than merely overlapping with XD, seeing as Jynx is not obtainable there. As I have said before, Emerald, XD and the third game would be viewed as a subdivision - one would only need these games to complete the PokéDex, as opposed to Ruby/Sapphire, Colosseum and FireRed/LeafGreen.
In terms of unused data, I recall there are also the unused ribbons and overworld sprites of the legendary beasts. However, I must say unused data does not warrant that they will be used in a later game. Most of them were probably created for potential use, and do not always suggest room for development.
That sort of unused data is indeed "non-binding"; it was easy enough to create, and therefore liable to be ignored. However, a plethora of the ribbons carry some meaning which is fueled by solider ingredients of the game. Much like the Mew overworld sprite would definitely prove useful, so would those ribbons. I would prefer to go over this once I have made the concept of the game clearer.
To be truthful, I still find this plot unfeasible. If Mew were to be included in the main plot of this game, it would be ridiculous not to make it capturable by natural means. And if it does happen, Mew will no longer stay in the ranks of the phantom pokemon as Celebi, Jirachi and Deoxys.
Moreover, Mewtwo seems too 'old' as a pokemon to take the spotlight. Players know about Mewtwo since the very first Red/Green days, and I doubt making it the key figure would appeal to many, contrary to Suicune and Rayquaza, who were relatively new pokemon at their time.
Mew is already distinct from Jirachi and Deoxys in that it is named in the game by the Cinnabar Mansion diary entries. Thanks to Colosseum, Celebi is like Mew - referenced by Ein and many people in Agate Village. Celebi can even be
seen in Colosseum, being pivotal to the plot, and yet it cannot be obtained within the realms of normal gameplay. If the Bonus Disc is necessary to unlock Celebi in Colosseum, even though it is a major character, it seems perfectly acceptable for the Old Sea Map to serve a similar function in regard to Mew.
While it is true that Mewtwo is equivalent to Rayquaza, its role in the storyline would be comparable to that of Groudon and Kyogre. Ruby and Sapphire had left the storyline blurry, to the point that the anime and manga could revise it with little response from fans, and so Emerald was a welcomed change. This time, the impact of the third game would be even vaster - it would lay to rest a 10-year old mystery.
To be honest, I still fail to understand why a purported 3rd game would take after Yellow instead of Blue, seeing how Red, Green, Blue make the true trio, while Yellow was basically a special edition based on the anime. If I remember correctly, the game name Water Blue has been trademarked by Nintendo but nothing remotely resembling Yellow or Pikachu.
The whole point of the Pikachu (Yellow) version was to have Pikachu follow you around like in the anime. I seriously don't see this happening even if a third game is to be released.
The game's title strikes me as being of little value to its concept. That said, "Water Blue" was only registered as a possible substitute for the stateside release of LeafGreen. According to Junichi Masuda's blog, the game retained its Japanese name for the semantic symbolism that a leaf carries. In other words, the elements of fire and leaf override the selection of Charizard and Venusaur. I would say that any element pertaining to Blastoise is apparently not meaningful enough in Junichi Masuda's eyes. By the way, even the titles of FireRed and LeafGreen were obscured so that no one could leak the news before the announcement. The same strategy must have been used here.
In terms of game content, the third game might as well be associated with Mewtwo, but I still see "Pikachu" or "Yellow" fitting in. A reference to the original version would be due, if for no other reason than the PokéDex entries (Blue's entries are already taken by LeafGreen; Red/Green's entries are taken by FireRed). But this third game would meet the standards set by Emerald and Crystal; the impression of a game serving as a homage to the anime would be completely overridden. Pikachu itself would not be the starter, but a Pokémon that would
have to be acquired early in the game. Light Ball would be obtained at some point in the game, replacing the need in evolution. Thus, Volt Tackle would not be as obscure a move as it is in Emerald.
Unlike Ruby and Sapphire which are new games, FRLG are already upgrades, in respect to RGBY. Graphics aside, they expanded Kanto by adding the Sevii Islands, and honestly, if there were plans to expand the features further, wouldn't they have already done it in FRLG?
I must point out that not all the FRLG features were adapted into Emerald, and the first thing that comes to mind is the scenery shots which appear on screen before entry to certain locations. As for features in Emerald which FRLG lack, there are technically only the Battle Frontier and the pokemon animations, both of which I doubt would make a purported third game any more interesting than FRLG already are. I would actually disregard contests, as FRLG would have certainly had them already if there were plans to include them in Kanto.
Your argument assumes that FireRed and LeafGreen are mere remakes; you are in fact claiming that as upgrades to the original games, they should surely represent Kanto in its full-fledged form. By doing so you essentially remove any chance of accepting the games as parallel to Ruby and Sapphire, worthy of an expansion to the likening of Emerald. I doubt you truly believe that to be the case, as the evidence can be found in the games with little difficulty.
The animations would not have to be identical to those of Emerald; even the base sprites would be different, at least in Kanto Pokémon's case. I would think that more than a year and a half after Emerald, Game Freak would have had the time to improve the animations drastically, perhaps even using more than two frames - as in Crystal. The equivalent to the Battle Frontier could be the solution for a large portion of the unused ribbons, and using that as an indication, it would be unique on its own right. Further, online communication could be incorporated into one or more of the facilities, much like normal communication in Emerald's Battle Tower. As for contests, a reference in the games alludes to Daisy being a Contest Champion - supporting the possibility of a contest house located at Four Island. The inclusion of contests would bear importance; if there were online communication, only the third game would support battling, trading and such interactions. Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald would not suffice for friend contests held over the Nintendo DS' Wi-Fi.
You once mentioned that this would serve like a tester to the actual thing, but bringing forward my first point again, how much of this testing purpose would it serve if the real thing is coming out within half a year?
If to put it bluntly, there is no telling how far the "real thing" will be from the current games. Unlike Diamond and Pearl, the third game would have to be true to its predecessors, and perhaps that makes the entire difference when tempting consumers to move from the Game Boy Advance to the Nintendo DS. Nintendo seems to rely on the Pokémon franchise for this, but they should be aware that there is need in a "literal bridge". There are those who resent having to buy another system, and it is easy for them to reject Diamond and Pearl using the rationale that they will not be "losing out on something they have not experienced." The third game would be a different story.
From the looks of things, Nintendo is likely pushing this Ranger campaign right towards the 9th movie. After that, it is probably time to start revealing actual information on D/P, and to be frank, there is no room for a purported third game to fit into the schedule at this stage.
You are entitled to your own perception of the matter, as the burden of proof is upon me. Yet, I do believe you have yet to account for the five-game allusion by Pokémon Company USA.
not_awake said:
However, I think some elaboration needs to be made on the event that spurred this idea. With a single transmission boasting the ability and if the service has been dispensed, as you noted in the article, what leads us to speculate that it should suddenly return?
I should first clarify that the event was held in last September; the Joyspot service was ended in April of the same year. By "service" I am referring to ongoing distribution of data at various locations, rather than a designated event. Using this definition, the term applies strictly to Japan.
The distribution of the Old Sea Map, first in Pokémon Festa and later in PokéPark, did not mark the revival of the service. However, bringing the Nintendo DS to use through the PokéPark event showed that so much more could be done. Adding that with the then-upcoming Wi-Fi service, the options for another cycle of the Wireless Communication service became limitless. I am in fact suggesting that nothing has been done regarding the matter
because of the third game, again for reasons that concern only Nintendo's profit. The bulk of the service would not be exclusive to the third game, but the release stands as a condition to its return.
If you are interested in screenshots showing the transmission of the Old Sea Map, you can find them
here.
Any changes made to the story would need to carry a significant weight, in my opinion, to merit the creation of an additional game. Though, to be fair, yellow had little to offer beyond cameos from the series so I can't dismiss this point entirely. Yellow was created, however, during the peak of the Pokemon craze and stood to earn substantially more due to its relation to the anime.
I could not agree more with your assertion that no longer could the storyline merely be tweaked to follow the anime, albeit loosely. The changes that I have in mind are in the vein of Crystal and Emerald, if not more substantial. To clarify, perhaps it would be sufficient to quote pieces of text added in FireRed and LeafGreen:
- It's a photo of Blaine and Mr. Fuji. They're standing shoulder to shoulder with big grins.
- I hear that Mr. Fuji's not from these parts originally, either.
- Could it be in that burned-out mansion? The Gym Leader's friend used to live there, they say.
- A decrepit, burned-down mansion on Cinnabar Island. It got its name because a famous Pokémon researcher lived there.
Taken with text dating to the original games (Team Rocket's attack on Mr. Fuji, records of "Dr. Fuji", the Cinnabar Island diary entries, etc.), as well as the sign on Faraway Island, clearly you can see there is much to be had.
Finally, I wish to say that I have not raised all my points - there is only so much that can fit into a condensed post. I hope that you have further queries or points of your own, from which we can continue building the discussion.
