Transgender women and Feminism

[Bananarama]

Legendary feminist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is currently under fire for implying that trans women are not real women and that they play no real role in feminism.

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has sparked outrage for suggesting transgender women are not real women.

The feminist author’s argument stems from the idea trans women have been culturally conditioned to be men from birth until the point they decide to transition. Ngozi Adichie believes their male privilege fundamentally sets their experiences apart from non-transgender women.
Appearing on Channel Four earlier in the week, the Nigerian novelist said: “When people talk about, ‘Are trans women women?’ my feeling is trans women are trans women.”

As a recently-out trans woman, this story had me thinking: Do trans women inherently have a different perspective when it comes to feminism than cisgender women do? What can we as trans women bring to the table that cisgender women can't? Does our cultural upbringing as male significantly affect our perspectives? And will mainstream feminism as a whole ever fully accept us as women?

I personally believe that we need to play a valuable role in the feminist movement, and we should acknowledge that. We should affirm our identities as real women and work to have ourselves recognized as such. We should use our previous experiences identifying as male to assert that we have a unique perspective on the male-female dichotomy that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Ereshkigal]

Do trans women inherently have a different perspective when it comes to feminism than cisgender women do?

Yes. And unfortunately, it's often a much more antagonistic one. To a certain degree, trans women have been fighting against quite a few feminist groups ever since the public first became truly aware that trans women exist. There is a pretty deep anti-feminist stance running through parts of the trans community because of how feminism has been one of our enemies. The modern intersectual aspects have sought to address this, but still run across a problem that the fragmented nature of feminism means that often the majority of the message people are getting is not the message being sent out.

There really is no way I can come up with to fix this that doesn't involve feminism making a huge sacrifice. Unfortunately, given feminism's history of acceptance even by women, that sacrifice is probably necessary anyway.

What can we as trans women bring to the table that cisgender women can't?

An actual understanding of how society helps program people to think certain ways about gender.

As much as I love feminists and as much as I agree with their message, they're often unwitting hypocrites on this issue. It's not that they're conscious of it; they're often not. But when you have sites such as Jezebel rail against the image of women being obsessed with men and then turn around and post five articles where they do nothing but obsess with men, with the comments section of all six articles being primarily people posting obsession with men... you really get the idea that a lot of feminists are not even getting the very message they're trying to broadcast. And unfortunately, I've found this is a consistent problem throughout the movement.

It's part of what helps make their message ineffective, because any outsider or enemy can instantly see that they are not practicing what they preach, even if they are not aware of the contradiction.

Does our cultural upbringing as male significantly affect our perspectives?

That's a good question. I would say it makes trans women a lot more aware of societal messages, but I'm certain it has other effects as well.

And will mainstream feminism as a whole ever fully accept us as women?

Twenty years ago, I would have said yes. Now... I don't believe they will. I believe they are trying, but I don't believe they ever truly will. Trans people are still having the same exact struggles on the same exact levels with feminism now as back in the 1990s. And I'm tired of trying to educate people who obviously won't listen.

I do think part of the problem is that we tend to talk about feminism as though it's one movement. It's not. It would be far better to do away with the umbrella term and start labeling the individual movements for what they are. Because otherwise, you have to deal with a movement where the noise to signal ratio is appalling.

I personally believe that we need to play a valuable role in the feminist movement, and we should acknowledge that. We should affirm our identities as real women and work to have ourselves recognized as such. We should use our previous experiences identifying as male to assert that we have a unique perspective on the male-female dichotomy that shouldn't be ignored.

I wish you good luck in this.

These days? I find myself supporting multiple movements, each with their own goals. I find it easier than trying to get them to work together when, really, half of them hate each other.

 

[Bananarama]

I agree with much of what you posted, but I wanted to add a few more things.

With the rise of third-wave feminism and intersectionality, along with the growing visibility of trans women (Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc.) and their issues (bathroom access, etc), I have a feeling that the relationship between feminism and the trans community is going to improve greatly in the next few years.

I think it's been going strong for the past couple years too, since trans people in general are (with the exception of from some conservatives and fringe radicals) no longer seen as deviants by society. We are being accepted at a larger scale, and our issues are top stories in the news. We aren't the side show freaks of the Jerry Springer days anymore, and I'm seeing more and more mainstream feminists accept us into their communities.

As intersectional feminism becomes the new face of feminism, I'm becoming more optimistic of our potential role in the movement.

 

[snorlax512]

I don't like Milo but if there's one thing we agree about, it's third wave feminism.

 

[chess-z]

I don't like Milo but if there's one thing we agree about, it's third wave feminism.

I don't like Milo either. He holds consistently awful views about nearly everything. Milo is wrong about third wave feminism. Do you have something else to contribute to this discussion other than saying that you don't like intersectional feminism? If you don't I recommend lurking around this thread so you can begin to form an opinion on these matters.

It's a tricky subject, as I've found. I've dealt with lots of TERFs in my day and it's pretty demoralizing, they make it clear that we as a society have a lot of growing up to do. I really want to know what our role is in modern feminism, but I don't. We can and should try to support cis women and hope that they support us back, but due to being trans, we experience a whole different set of prejudices and bigotry.

I guess we should listen to what they have to tell us, and ask that they listen back, and then work towards common goals.

 

[satopi]

Whether you consider yourself a woman or not, all of you believe in one common thing and that's feminism. It doesn't matter if you a man, woman, LGBT, or not, people of all walks come together to support women's rights and continue to enhance equality. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie may believe that trans women aren't "real" women based on the gender they were originally born with but it doesn't stop trans women, people in general from not having to deal with struggles.

Do trans women inherently have a different perspective when it comes to feminism than cisgender women do?

Yes I think they do. As a natural born straight woman, I feel that trans women may overthink some things that not many people have to think about. I feel like they know how it's like from both sides. They have the perspective of knowing how guys from the other spectrum feel towards the topic by observing how they act or talk towards women and now that they transitioned into accepting themselves as apart of the women community, they can hear different women talk about their experiences and maybe even relate to how it is. Trans women can in some way understand from both sides and it can be a huge contribution to the community.

What can we as trans women bring to the table that cisgender women can't?

I'm not trans but as someone who were raised with boys, understand boys much more than girls, but would never want to be one, trans women know how it's like being a boy. They can bring in the perspective of how they think or the arguments men make against feminism and counter it with their knowledge.

Does our cultural upbringing as male significantly affect our perspectives? And will mainstream feminism as a whole ever fully accept us as women?

Yes because a cisgender woman can never understand what it's like transitioning into the gender they were already biologically born as, trans women still struggle with being accepted as a woman due to that fact. I believe trans women are apart of feminism seeing that feminism in itself is further rights for women. It never was about how men are evil, women must be strong, independent, and not let a man support them, nor was it whether you were born biologically female or not. It was always about equality in gender and to see feminist groups shun trans women based on how they're not real women is dismissing their own beliefs that are still limiting women. They're contributing to "the struggle". One must progress and accept new things in order to achieve what they were fighting for in the first place. Overtime, feminist groups will come to the understanding that trans women aren't that different from them themselves as some women can't get their period or have children naturally but does that make them less than a woman? For now, I don't believe that mainstream feminism will fully accept trans women based on how the topic is being stuck down our throats in the media and how we're supposed to accept it based on our nation as always accepting and progressive as opposed to people feeling comfortable around the idea at their own pace. There are still negative thoughts on the topic but I believe trans people in general want to be treated just like the gender they identify as and help their fellow woman kind in the same cause.

 

[chess-z]

satoharupika, it's posts like these that make me wish that serebiiforums had a system for liking posts. This was a delight to read. A good post.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

Are we allowed to talk about feminism in general as well in this thread? Just asking since I'm a bit of a feminist myself :3

 

[chess-z]

Are we allowed to talk about feminism in general as well in this thread? Just asking since I'm a bit of a feminist myself :3

I mean in the thread about AA we ended talking about racism and sexism as a whole, so I really don't see why not. Can't talk about trans women's role in feminism whithout talking about feminism.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

I mean in the thread about AA we ended talking about racism and sexism as a whole, so I really don't see why not. Can't talk about trans women's role in feminism whithout talking about feminism.

Great!

So, I'm not exactly a devout feminist, but I do believe that women aren't really being treated equally to men in society at all, even nowadays. A prime example is Donald Trump, who treats women awfully and is an extremely sexist man, yet he still became America's president. Looking at sport, certain sports have some sort of woman/man division in some ways. For example, women can't take part in Decathlons while men can, and women can't do best of five matches in tennis. There are many more examples, but I think my point has gotten over. As a female person, I don't think that women are exactly superior to men, but women still need to be treated equally. I do understand that women are meant to be naturally built as weaker than men, but it still doesn't mean that we can't do as much sport as men (although you'd never se me specifically wanting to do sport). I just feel that girls need more role models in the more stereotypically "boyish" activities like football - so possibly giving women's football more recognition. By the way, I do feel likewise for men - boys should have more role models in stereotypically "girlish" activities. Both of those things might help reduce discrimination.

Also, why do I have to wear a skirt in school as part of my uniform? I prefer trousers.

 

[Ereshkigal]

I wish I could like posts in this thread. There's only two posts I wouldn't like, and one of them because it's mine.

In particular, I have to agree with chess-z, satoharupika, and Nerdy McNerdface. Bananarama also makes an excellent point, but that I expected from the very first post and the amount of thought.

Ultimately, we have a chance to make things better. Even if people like me are demoralized on the issue, that doesn't mean we should stop fighting. Just because it may not happen in my lifetime is no reason to give up. Women's right to vote took over 100 years to come about. I don't want my granddaughters to deal with the problems I am.

 

[snorlax512]

Why would you support a movement that so toxic that it excludes people based on attributes out of their control?

 

[bobjr]

Feminism is moving to accept Trans Women, there's just the vocal minority, which will always exists in some form or issue. Big movements rarely are single issue. People shouldn't let a bad subgroup stop them from supporting the general message, they change it from within so they can be publicly denounced by the main group.

Otherwise you just start a similar group and that leads to infighting instead of progress.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

Why would you support a movement that so toxic that it excludes people based on attributes out of their control?

Wait what you you mean?

 

[chess-z]

Why would you support a movement that so toxic that it excludes people based on attributes out of their control?

This seems like a compostion/division fallacy. Feminism as a movement is too large for you to reasonably make vague and broad statements like this.

I'll give you a chance to clarify your stance, but you're logically on thin ice.

 

[snorlax512]

I don't particularly care for third wave feminism, it's a movement that's gone astray but I presume this

And will mainstream feminism as a whole ever fully accept us as women?

implies that it's not a 'subgroup' which does not accept trans women.

 

[chess-z]

Again, it's nore nuanced than you let on. I personally think that mainstream feminism is pretty inclusive. TERFs are a vocal minority that most feminists try not to associate with. I can't presume to speak for all feminists, but I have more faith in feminism.

 

[Ereshkigal]

Feminism is moving to accept Trans Women, there's just the vocal minority, which will always exists in some form or issue. Big movements rarely are single issue. People shouldn't let a bad subgroup stop them from supporting the general message, they change it from within so they can be publicly denounced by the main group.

Otherwise you just start a similar group and that leads to infighting instead of progress.

It's already happened, unfortunately.

This is what led to the egalitarian movement and certain women-led antifeminist groups (a surprising amount of the woman-led anti-feminist stance is that they think feminism is just patriarchy with a fresh coat of paint).

There's also the wave battles. The woman-led antifeminist groups I referred to were actually founded by second-wave feminists, who see third-wave feminism as completely missing the point of what feminism fought for, and even a lot of the second-wavers I've met who are still allied with feminism think those antifeminists are right but approaching it the wrong way. And then there's the growing pro-life stance with the next generation, typically personified by groups like New Wave Feminists, who are fighting to become the fourth wave; they're why the last few rounds of arguments about abortion have had feminists on both sides of the fight.

So, even within feminism, you have fights between the second-wavers, the third-wavers, and the pro-lifers. And that's without the complications brought about by the TERFs, the supremacists, the suffragists (who very much don't like being labelled as feminists), and other fringe groups that provide black eyes to the movement.

You're about thirty years too late to the party to stop the infighting you're talking about, unfortunately. It's part of why some people want feminism replaced by egalitarianism; they see feminism as a movement too broken at current to ever be truly functional again.

Of course, we both know the living embodiment of the reason why feminism is still very much necessary thinks Obama wire tapped him. And a certain recent march reveals that despite that infighting, feminists still come together when it's important.

 

[snorlax512]

The face of third-wave feminism has been hijacked to a movement which

a) diverts from it's definition (supposed to be equality for all, but feminists don't care about men's issues)

b) they want equality on issues that men are privileged in, but not on issues that women are privileged in (hypocritical)

c) fabricates lies or at the very least, manipulates data (a.k.a woman earns 77 cents a dollar than a man for the same work, which people feed on like sheep without thinking deeper in. Also, you have people spouting that 1 in 5 people in college are raped which is nonsense). You also have celebrities who who earn millions and jump on the bandwagon, but have no idea what they are talking about.

d) I don't know if this is just the vocal minority, because a lot of feminists seem to be more about hating men than achieving equality between the sexes. (Patriarchy, male privilege, all men are pigs, blah blah blah.)

e) leads to the creation of retarded terminology (man spreading, man splaining etc...)

f) You have subgroups which focus on non-issues and make everything about sexism. (I have seen stuff like tampons are sexist, but there are ones with millions of viewers like Anita Sarkeesian). and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNH0bmYT7os

g) It breeds feminists (they are the radicals, but still) who are absolute batshit crazy.

 

[chess-z]

Snorlax, honey, you're gonna have a hard time pitching "feminism is bad" to a thread full of feminists.

A) Please list these "men's issues"
B) Cis men are still priviliged in pretty much every area darling.
C) This is patently wrong. Here is John Oliver's bit on the wage gap. You'll find it's very well sourced (Warning, this is a HBO show so lot's of swearing.)
D) Vocal minority.
E) Yeah, you've lost all semblance of reason here. There really isn't much wrong with the terminology, except for the fact that it hurts your felings.
F) The tampon tax was a real thing, and sexism plays into all facets of life.
G) Yeah, radfems are frustrating but they comprise a minority of the moveme