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Transgender women and Feminism

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
You want equal representation in high paying fields like STEM jobs. What about the dirty work? Who is stuck in the coal mines? Who builds the skyscrapers you live in, and die when the scaffolding collapses?

Who does all the dangerous jobs like construction and firefighting? At least 90% of occupation fatalities are male. Who gets drafted to war and sacrificed so you can stay safe? When the titanic collapsed, who stayed on board and died to keep women and children alive?

You guys are so blinded with constructing a hierarchy of oppression that you don't realize that both men and women have their specific privileges. At least "white privilege has some basis", but when you shut arguments down with "male privilege" I just laugh.

Also please don't link a retarded comedian as proof of the wage gap. He doesn't even understand why having children contributes to the disparity.

EDIT: A few more things. If women are oppressed, why do men get longer sentences for the same crime? https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
The sources are real, he's just providing a comedic take on the issues.

Feminism address a lot of this stuff you mentioned, but why do you think that men have the jobs with the highest fatality rates? Nice shootin there, Tex.

Also, as a courtesy, could you not use "retarded"? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Who gets drafted to war and sacrificed so you can stay safe? When the titanic collapsed, who stayed on board and died to keep women and children alive?

It wasn't my intention to comment in this thread, because I'm not a transwomen, but I want to address these two points because they are easily factually debunked.

The argument about the draft is a red herring as it's no longer actively used in the United States and most developed nations have abolished it. In any case the reason the draft was entirely male was because of enforcement of arbitrary gender roles. Since the draft has ended, the number of women serving in the military has increased.

The argument about the Titanic is similarly misplaced. In actual facts survival rates in maritime disasters favour men. The "Birkenhead Drill" has never been codified as international maritime law. The Titanic was also an anomalous situation - a lot of things went wrong. It's lifeboats could only accomodate around a third of the people onboard for a start.

EDIT: A few more things. If women are oppressed, why do men get longer sentences for the same crime? https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002

That also stems from stereotypes that present women as being nurturers, dependants, pathological and victims of circumstance, where as men are presented as bad, disruptive and dangerous. So it's two sides of the same coin.

There are also reasons to believe, on a case-by-case basis it's not entirely unjust. Prison can be harsher for women than it is for men. There are fewer vocational and recreational programs available in women's prison's, the prisons are often located a long way from family and friend and women receive fewer visits.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...al_justice/links/55e63e9908aec74dbe74e5dd.pdf
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
B) Cis men are still priviliged in pretty much every area darling.
I don't mean to sound like I believe in everything of what Snorlax is saying but Cis men aren't privileged in pretty much every area and he is right when he said that men aren't privileged in areas that women are privileged in. This is coming from a personal experience but for concealed reasons, my dad had to prove that my mother is an unfit parent. In law, the judge would automatically give the kids to the mother because it's widely believed that mothers are nurturing and someone that every child needs while the father is always a deadbeat who don't know how to look after children. A lot of the time, in child custody battles, the children almost always go to the mother unless under certain circumstances. But of course, this is referring to traditional gender roles.

There's even terms that are mainly used on gender but hey, I say if a man can be called pretty as a compliment then a woman can be called handsome as it too. :D Or how nurses can't be male and if they are, they must be gay or feminine. There are still societal roles that men aren't supposed to lurk into. Like girls can be tomboys and like certain boy stuff but guys can't be girly and show their feminine side or else they'll be mocked by peers. I feel like most industries are male run and men's issues are an underlooked value in equality. But this doesn't mean that feminists should be painted as batshit crazy radicals when that's the vocal minority and many people believe in women's rights but don't call themselves feminists.
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
To be entirely fair, these privileges that women have come from stereotypical gender roles. By abolishing these roles in our society we address those concerns.

EDIT: My reading comprehension is bad. My point still stands, but satoharupika is correct.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
To be entirely fair, these privileges that women have come from stereotypical gender roles. By abolishing these roles in our society we address those concerns.

EDIT: My reading comprehension is bad. My point still stands, but satoharupika is correct.
Yes you're right about that. And the same goes for women like how a man has to feel ashamed if she's the breadwinner, the separation of genders in sports (though women's bodies are naturally weaker than men so many believe they can't take on a man in say, football or wrestling), women in leadership roles, against lesbian parents having children due to not having that strong male figure in their life or the authority of a man, etc.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
It wasn't my intention to comment in this thread, because I'm not a transwomen, but I want to address these two points because they are easily factually debunked.

The argument about the draft is a red herring as it's no longer actively used in the United States and most developed nations have abolished it. In any case the reason the draft was entirely male was because of enforcement of arbitrary gender roles.

https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Women-And-Draft

I believe there was originally a plan for women to register for the draft, but it was dropped by congress. http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/ndaa-women-draft-dropped

The argument about the Titanic is similarly misplaced. In actual facts survival rates in maritime disasters favour men. The "Birkenhead Drill" has never been codified as international maritime law. The Titanic was also an anomalous situation - a lot of things went wrong. It's lifeboats could only accomodate around a third of the people onboard for a start.

The paper basically says that the "Birkenhead drill" depends on whether the captain issues an order. Most of the times they bail and everyone fights for their own survival, but in certain occasions (such as the Titanic) women and children are given priority. As far as we are concerned, there was never a 'men first' order.

You're right in the sense that it was an anomaly (and by no means is it a law), but my point is that 'ladies first' has been the societal expectation for centuries, and still is today. http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=6209508

Therefore, 'women are oppressed by privileged men' is garbage. Gender roles and societal stereotypes privilege men and women depending on the circumstance.

There are also reasons to believe, on a case-by-case basis it's not entirely unjust. Prison can be harsher for women than it is for men. There are fewer vocational and recreational programs available in women's prison's, the prisons are often located a long way from family and friend and women receive fewer visits.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...al_justice/links/55e63e9908aec74dbe74e5dd.pdf
Don't have any statistics to back me up, but I would much rather (be a girl) and go to a female prison than go to a male prison.

I mean, a lack of board games and family visits would probably be the least of my concerns there. I imagine most of my energy would be devoted to not dropping the soap lol.
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
Wow, rape jokes, so funny.

The point is that our society benefits men over women in most cases. Arguing otherwise distracts from the main point of feminism.
 

Ereshkigal

Well-Known Member
the separation of genders in sports (though women's bodies are naturally weaker than men so many believe they can't take on a man in say, football or wrestling),

Less upper body strength, but women make up for it with slightly higher pain endurance and dexterity. And that difference is easily negated, so I've never understood why it's considered such of a big deal.

And that's the issue with a lot of the physical differences argument; outside of medicine, it really isn't that important.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
"Women and children first" also implies that women are weaker. Modern feminism is for the balancing of gender, it's just the scale is tipped towards men. Modern Feminism is for things like more childcare benefits for men, custody and child support help, things like that. There's even a big question in the behavioral sciences if humans as a species have become so advanced that gender really doesn't matter as much as it did before.

Even stuff like the draft feminists are fine with, it's the people who are in charge of it who aren't the ones changing it.
 

Ereshkigal

Well-Known Member
The draft issue makes me tilt my head. The entire idea for not changing it is based on women being unable to hack it as soldiers. Which, to a degree, is true; most modern women can't hack it as soldiers.

But most modern men can't either.

So, I really don't see a need for keeping the draft.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Yeah a lot of the resistance is less gender issues and more if it should even exist in the first place. Most current military leaders even note that another mandatory draft would be a disaster.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Don't have any statistics to back me up, but I would much rather (be a girl) and go to a female prison than go to a male prison.

I mean, a lack of board games and family visits would probably be the least of my concerns there. I imagine most of my energy would be devoted to not dropping the soap lol.

Sexual abuse occurs in women's prisons too:https://www.prearesourcecenter.org/...8-impunity-sexualabuseinwomensprisons2007.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/jul/18/female-inmate-prison-sexual-abuse

The article I cited actually did make reference to that fact as a justification for sentencing disparities.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
The point is that our society benefits men over women in most cases. Arguing otherwise distracts from the main point of feminism.
Based on what?

Your best shot at institutional sexism against women (and I mean blatant sexual discrimination) is the wage gap, which has been either completely debunked or reduced to a value of at most 10% after accounting for multiple controls. This probably disappears after measuring for every single factor (such as men are more likely to ask for promotions etc...)

Blatant institutional sexism against men?

Drafts (blatantly sexist)
Affirmative action (blatantly sexist)

Sentencing disparity (pretty much indisputable: men are sentenced 60% longer for the same crime, females are twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.)

Reproductive rights: women have the choice of abortion whereas men are forced to pay child support no matter what. He takes responsibility for the woman's decision and has zero say over the matter.

'Privileges' due to gender roles which apparently oppress women:

Homelessness: 80% male, 20% female
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/nur.4770120507/abstract)

Suicide: 78% male, 22% female (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/)

Workplace fatality: 93% male, 7% female (https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0014.pdf)

College enrolment: 43% male, 57% female (http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html)

Custody, as mentioned by Satoharupika.

"Women and children first" in certain emergencies.

Billions spent on domestic violence refugees for women, and none for men.

Alimony received: 97% female, 3% male even though 40% of females are breadwinners. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmajohnson/2014/11/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/#2eb279f654b9)

So yeah, what do you define as "most cases"? It's also not just the quantity, the gravity of the privilege matters too (being drafted for war, or separated from your child have huge impacts).

Please present your case on why women are objectively oppressed by men in this hierarchal society, and justify how you can use "male privilege" to shut down my arguments.

Sexual abuse occurs in women's prisons too:https://www.prearesourcecenter.org/...8-impunity-sexualabuseinwomensprisons2007.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/jul/18/female-inmate-prison-sexual-abuse

The article I cited actually did make reference to that fact as a justification for sentencing disparities.

I know there is sexual abuse in female prisons too.

The important question: would you rather be in a female prison or a male one?
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Comparing levels of rape and sexual assault is kind of gross when it's all a problem. Plus it's a problem with the US Prison system in general compared to other comparable countries.

Also women attempt suicide more often, just using less lethal methods. Modern Feminism wants to fix these problems and more, it's not like they go "Well it's good more men kill themselves so women can take over"
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
I apologise if this thread has become off topic as it was supposed to be about Transwomen and it seems to have ended up being about whether sex discrimination exists, but I want to follow up a few of Snorlax512's points:

Based on what?

Your best shot at institutional sexism against women (and I mean blatant sexual discrimination) is the wage gap, which has been either completely debunked or reduced to a value of at most 10% after accounting for multiple controls. This probably disappears after measuring for every single factor (such as men are more likely to ask for promotions etc...)

Political and economic institutions in the United States and globally are dominated by men - these are the institutions whose decisions and influence dictate and direct the political economy:

US Congress: 80% male, 20% female

State Legislatures: only 24.4% women

Notice also that the lower the proportion of women in the legislature, the more likely that state is to have restrictive abortion and reproductive rights laws: http://www.self.com/story/these-6-maps-show-the-insanity-of-abortion-restrictions-in-the-u-s

President's of the United States: 100% male

Courts: Women are still vastly underrepresented

CEO's: only 14% women

And disparities within professions: http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publi...-at-occupational-obstacles-and-opportunities/

The gravity in these matters is also extremely great - women are largely shut out of positions of political and economic decision making but still bare the brunt of many of those decision - States with Republican and male dominated legislatures have passed abortion restriction that really only impact women.

Sentencing disparity (pretty much indisputable: men are sentenced 60% longer for the same crime, females are twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.)

Which as I highlighted earlier is not necessarily unjust when you look at disparities of impact prison has on women compared with men - you said you wanted to account for factors?

Reproductive rights: women have the choice of abortion whereas men are forced to pay child support no matter what. He takes responsibility for the woman's decision and has zero say over the matter.

Not a fair comparison. Being forced to physically go through a pregnancy and give birth is not the same as being required to pay child support. Control over one's body is vastly different to a wallet.

In addition it's debatable whether it's just for a fathers not to have to pay child support where the result is the child will be forced to grow up poorer or in poverty.

The best argument I can find to debunk this may be the legal one - You're argument was rejected by both the district court and the Sixth Circuit in Duaby v Wells:

The plaintiff's claims have been rejected by every court that has considered similar matters, and with good reason. The plaintiff's suggestion that the support provisions of the Michigan Paternity Act implicates the Equal Protection Clause does not find support in the jurisprudence. First, the Act's provisions apply only if a child is born and essentially do not concern anyone's right to choose to be a parent. Second, the statutory provisions are facially neutral, requiring both parents equally to support the child. Third, the plaintiff argues that enforcing the Act's provisions, without any deviation from the neutral language of those provisions, still can implicate the Equal Protection Clause because of an underlying inequality: the State's recognition that women can choose to be parents and men cannot. This argument in turn is based on the existence of a right supposedly grounded in substantive due process, as the plaintiff acknowledged at oral argument. But the Sixth Circuit has squarely rejected the argument that fairness or reciprocity generates a substantive right to avoid child support on the theory that a woman has the right to bring to term or terminate a pregnancy on her own. Finally, the plaintiff has failed to demonstrate in even the most remote way that state action plays a role in the interference with his choice to reject parenthood. The consequences of sexual intercourse have always included conception, and the State has nothing to do with this historical truism. Because the plaintiff has failed to state a colorable claim in his amended complaint, the Court will dismiss the complaint against all the defendants. In addition, the Court finds that the plaintiff's claim is frivolous, unreasonable, and without foundation. Therefore, the Court will grant the State's motion for attorney fees under 42 U.S.C. § 1988(b).

https://casetext.com/case/dubay-v-wells

And Critically from the appeal case

Dubay’s claim that a man’s right to disclaim fatherhood would be analogous to a woman’s right to abortion rests upon a false analogy. In the case of a father seeking to opt out of fatherhood and thereby avoid child support obligations, the child is already in existence and the state therefore has an important interest in providing for his or her support

http://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/07a0442p-06.pdf

The discussion of the 14th amendment arguments concerning the Michigan paternity statute are interesting. The 6th Circuit seems to have essentially "bench slapped" the argument.

Custody, as mentioned by Satoharupika.

This is also due to other factors.

For a start, only about 4% of cases actually make it court: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html

For another, in the majority of cases where fathers apply for contact orders, the orders were successful: http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/s...es/Executive Summary with full disclaimer.pdf
http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/sites/default/files/files/Full report.pdf

Thirdly, the governing principal of family orders is the best interests of the child: https://theconversation.com/child-custody-parental-rights-vs-the-childs-best-interest-33620
A lot of so called fatherhood groups who claim a bias against them exist work on their presumption that their rights are more important than the child's: http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/bias-against-fathers/
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Political and economic institutions in the United States and globally are dominated by men - these are the institutions whose decisions and influence dictate and direct the political economy:

US Congress: 80% male, 20% female

State Legislatures: only 24.4% women

Notice also that the lower the proportion of women in the legislature, the more likely that state is to have restrictive abortion and reproductive rights laws: http://www.self.com/story/these-6-maps-show-the-insanity-of-abortion-restrictions-in-the-u-s

President's of the United States: 100% male

Courts: Women are still vastly underrepresented

CEO's: only 14% women

And disparities within professions: http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publi...-at-occupational-obstacles-and-opportunities/

The gravity in these matters is also extremely great - women are largely shut out of positions of political and economic decision making but still bare the brunt of many of those decision - States with Republican and male dominated legislatures have passed abortion restriction that really only impact women.
Women are the majority of the voting base, and the effect of these institutions are what I'm interested in. What benefits do men reap from having political influence? Drafts? Affirmative action? Reproductive rights?

Just saying I'm pro-choice, but I believe that the debate concerning abortion is a philosophical one that goes deeper than just 'a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body'. It has to do with the ethics of killing a human being.

Which as I highlighted earlier is not necessarily unjust when you look at disparities of impact prison has on women compared with men - you said you wanted to account for factors?
You still haven't answered my question though.

Would you rather go to a male prison or a female prison?

Not a fair comparison. Being forced to physically go through a pregnancy and give birth is not the same as being required to pay child support. Control over one's body is vastly different to a wallet.
Just because one issue has greater impact does not mean the lesser shouldn't be a choice. They can both be given choices.

In addition it's debatable whether it's just for a fathers not to have to pay child support where the result is the child will be forced to grow up poorer or in poverty.
Women have the choice to opt out of parenthood, so why shouldn't men? The privilege of having a choice comes with responsibility, and you cannot force that responsibility on the father when you are the one who have the choice.

The case you presented seems to argue that it's not unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean it should be the case.

This is also due to other factors.

For a start, only about 4% of cases actually make it court: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html

For another, in the majority of cases where fathers apply for contact orders, the orders were successful: http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/s...es/Executive Summary with full disclaimer.pdf
http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/sites/default/files/files/Full report.pdf

Thirdly, the governing principal of family orders is the best interests of the child: https://theconversation.com/child-custody-parental-rights-vs-the-childs-best-interest-33620
A lot of so called fatherhood groups who claim a bias against them exist work on their presumption that their rights are more important than the child's: http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/bias-against-fathers/

Yes, but the large disparity ultimately stems from gender roles which in this case, privilege women.
 
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Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Women have the choice to opt out of parenthood, so why shouldn't men? The privilege of having a choice comes with responsibility, and you cannot force that responsibility on the father when you are the one who have the choice.

Men and women have the same legal obligations in terms of parenting. When thier child is born, they have a responsibility to provide it with necessities of life including finance. And both men and women have the legal right to claim child support - the assessments are made based on the needs of the child and the relative incomes of the parents: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support#Legal_theory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support_in_the_United_States

Whether or not to continue a pregnancy only affects the women and hence the right of choice in that situation can only belong to her.

.You still haven't answered my question though.

Would you rather go to a male prison or a female prison?

I do not intend to.

I do not possess either the personal insight or experience of prisons nor the lived experience of prisoners requisite to be able to make that sort of judgement.

I can only highlight the evidence from the research.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
I'm saying that before the child is born, the man should have the right to decide whether to opt of parenthood. The woman can then make a choice whether to have an abortion or not, knowing that if she chooses to have the child, she might bear the resposnibility of it. Is giving men any reproductive rights too much to ask for?

While I agree that abortion is ultimately a woman's choice, I absolutely disagree that this only affects her. This is your child. He is part of you, he has your genes, and to say that killing him/her doesn't affect you just isn't true.

I'll do some research on prison later on, but stuff like this doesn't happen in female prisons.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...an-raped-2000-times-male-prison-a6989366.html
 

chess-z

campy vampire
It is INFINITELY easier for men to get a vasectomy than it is for a woman to get her tubes tied. Men shouldn't have any say in someone else's abortion. It doesn't matter if he's in a romantic relationship with the woman, he should not get to obstruct her right to choose.
 
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