Tropes VS Women In Video Games

[1rkhachatryan]

This thread has been approved by Kreis.

Hey guys, so I recently came back to this series and found that another episode was released. This is part 5 of a 12 part series.

Here are all the videos in order by part:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs
Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM
Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA
Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZPSrwedvsg&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA
Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA

Also you can go here for more info if you are new to the series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropes_vs._Women_in_Video_Games

So what do you guys think of the series?? I personally agree with a lot of what she says and have really had my eyes opened to how women have been treated in video games.

Anyways, have fun and enjoy the discussion guys, however, please be at least decent towards each other and please follow the rules of the forum.

Enjoy !!

Edit: Apparently something was wrong with the 5th video link. I think I fixed it so let me know if it isn't working still...

 

[Jb]

I dislike how she worked around details of the game Bastion to make it look like it's sexist she never mentioned Zia by name only as "The Female" but she is far from being labeled "just the female". She went on to say that Zia was a damsel in distress yet not once did she mention that it is actually revealed that Zia left the camp of her own accord, willing to brave the wilderness to discover the truth behind their world. Also she conveniently left out that the main character doesn't have a name, he's only referred to as "The Kid"

 

[junkieloser]

I dislike how she worked around details of the game Bastion to make it look like it's sexist she never mentioned Zia by name only as "The Female" but she is far from being labeled "just the female". She went on to say that Zia was a damsel in distress yet not once did she mention that it is actually revealed that Zia left the camp of her own accord, willing to brave the wilderness to discover the truth behind their world. Also she conveniently left out that the main character doesn't have a name, he's only referred to as "The Kid"

She has valid points, like games in general should be more varied, however she presents them in a way that caters to tumblr feminist agenda. aka i'm right and you're wrong because i'm right

i agree with the first part but complaining about the "tumblr feminist agenda" lmao what

what agenda is that even, i don't think that word is the word you meant to use (i hope it isn't)

 

[Jb]

no, i actually went to edit my post with a clarification but it didnt stick. i mean her videos are aimed at feminist bloggers, not really for feminist in general.

 

[shadow wolf]

All I'll say right now since I don't feel like re-watching her stuff right now is I agree with the message but not the presentation. Should things be better for women; representation, treatment etc... most definitely. I'll do everything I can on my part to better the situation, but I can only do so much.

Same as JB I have problem with her representation of Pandora's Tower, no just no... If she didn't misrepresent the way she does it'd be easier to listen to her points. But smeh...not much I can do about that.

 

[Kiruria]

I think a lot of the misrepresentation comes from her simply having not played the game. You simply can't expect a gamer to have played every single video game in existence, not even most of them. And it's very easy for someone who hasn't played a game to miss out on certain details about that game. In making videos about games, all one can do is a bit of quick research into the games one's not familiar with.

Well anyway, I just watched a couple of videos about FeministFrequency, and the comments section of both was absolutely appalling, containing a lot of hateful comments about her and feminists in general. It really made me understand why comments are disabled in the actual videos, because the actual videos would be littered with those sort of comments too. I've even seen comments bashing her complaining about all the hateful remarks, and criticism in the actual videos about how her disabling of comments amounts to her not wanting to hear anyone else's opinion. I actually had thoughts of suicide while reading some of these comments.

 

[Hitchslapmon]

I think a lot of the misrepresentation comes from her simply having not played the game. You simply can't expect a gamer to have played every single video game in existence, not even most of them. And it's very easy for someone who hasn't played a game to miss out on certain details about that game. In making videos about games, all one can do is a bit of quick research into the games one's not familiar with.

Well anyway, I just watched a couple of videos about FeministFrequency, and the comments section of both was absolutely appalling, containing a lot of hateful comments about her and feminists in general. It really made me understand why comments are disabled in the actual videos, because the actual videos would be littered with those sort of comments too. I've even seen comments bashing her complaining about all the hateful remarks, and criticism in the actual videos about how her disabling of comments amounts to her not wanting to hear anyone else's opinion. I actually had thoughts of suicide while reading some of these comments.

The anger arises from her having used biased reasoning to support claims and for we to have raised thousands of dollars to produce a few videos that contain no valid research links and are solely the opinion of a small minded bigot. What about the men in video games that are often only represented as meat shields? There is no conscious effort to make women "objects" in video games. She goes out of er way, doing things in video games that NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE to "prove" that women are somehow exploited, like when she uses the game "hitman" (which I own) and kills a bunch of strippers and drags their bodies around. She ignores: You get PENALIZED for doing so, it isn't even part of the mission. SHE went out of HER way to kill women, and then says "it causes some sort of sexual rush because it empowers the player over the woman..." WHAT!? Watch her crap for a moment and analyze it critcally, and you'll see through it to watch she is: a scam artist, a spiteful cow, and lazy. Do I support equal rights rights? Of course. Do I support a scamming, bitter and useless youtuber who only fosters the stereotype that feminists whine about things they don't uderstand? No. And no feminist should support her, either. Unless that is what feminism has become.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

One cannot deny that there are still DiD tropes in video games; however, there are tons of strong female characters, and the use of DiD tropes isn't as strong as it used to be.

In fact, a video game with a female protagonist is likely to sell well for that reason alone. Heroines are hot these days.

 

[はるひ]

when it comes to the non playable sex objects, she's right in a way. notice how when you talk to a non playable character (meaning the ones who are not main characters), you can learn a little about them. such as where they work, what class they are in, if they hate their bosses etc etc. you make connections from their lines. they can even give you information to help out. they can sell you useful items and they could also be teachers etc. so in a way, they fulfill more than one function in a game.

with non playable sex objects, their sole and primary function is to have sex with you, that's it (and in some games, be a killable ATM machine). i don't mind having sex in a game (there i said it) but if they are going to fulfill the same function as say... a can of soda but with tits... then what's the point of them even existing? i mean one even was still propositioning your character for sex while being kidnapped! it's getting old.

edit: i do want to point out that as a girl of color, i to hate when they portray us to be mysterious and exotic creatures. it's a love/hate relationship actually. while being different can be good, portraying a character from a different background was mysterious and exotic solely for their race is a bit insulting and says "they are not normal people because of their race". i really hate to complain but...

 

[shadow wolf]

The problem itself is due to lazy writing. Since video games are an industry that entertains, why risk profits for an unproven idea. Really that's where the problem lies, DiD is such an easy trope that it creates the plot/gives the main character/player motivation to play the game, and it sells so... Are developers being sexist in intent, I doubt it, but they could be, and I won't deny that some of these ideas and lazy writing can be harmful, and if you interpret it as such, downright sexist. So to me better writing will result in better representation and the like for all involved. Vote with your wallet, bring up your concerns with developers(they need to know such complaints exist), tell them your desires(what you'd like to see more of). Oh yeah and don't stand for backwards thinking from publishers, developers, and gamers.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

The anger arises from her having used biased reasoning to support claims and for we to have raised thousands of dollars to produce a few videos that contain no valid research links and are solely the opinion of a small minded bigot. What about the men in video games that are often only represented as meat shields? There is no conscious effort to make women "objects" in video games. She goes out of er way, doing things in video games that NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE to "prove" that women are somehow exploited, like when she uses the game "hitman" (which I own) and kills a bunch of strippers and drags their bodies around. She ignores: You get PENALIZED for doing so, it isn't even part of the mission. SHE went out of HER way to kill women, and then says "it causes some sort of sexual rush because it empowers the player over the woman..." WHAT!? Watch her crap for a moment and analyze it critcally, and you'll see through it to watch she is: a scam artist, a spiteful cow, and lazy. Do I support equal rights rights? Of course. Do I support a scamming, bitter and useless youtuber who only fosters the stereotype that feminists whine about things they don't uderstand? No. And no feminist should support her, either. Unless that is what feminism has become.

I'm sorry but unless you specifically paid money to her(voluntarily may I add), you have no right to use that as an argument. Also considering she states in almost every video that you can enjoy a game and criticize it at the same time, she isn't telling you to not play a game.

What about the men used as meat shields?? She has nothing to do with that and is talking about FEMALES in video games. Seriously this is like asking why there isn't talk about Yugioh in a video about pokemon.

 

[SILVER XD]

I'm agree that the idea of the series is good in trying to acknowledge inequalities in the medium but her Peres ration and examples aren't completely sound and could have been done much better. Female characters in video games have gotten much better than the worst of them(read: Princess Peach) with actual agency and characterization past just being eye candy or a DiD(read: Ellie, Faith, etc.) but there are still those out there that keep the old tropes whose numbers are, thankfully, dwindling but are still present. It does seem like she hasn't actually played some of the titles she references(or is just stretching it a bit to make a point) and misses other actually good female characters completely.

On the point of men being constantly portrayed as big muscular tough guys... That is definitely a problem as it seems to set a standard of "this is what men should be". At the same time, this characterization of men is often less about objectifying men than it is to give the male audience a role model or guy they can root for. Is this objectively good thing? No, you can't just place every male into this box of "masculinity". However, I do think that it is a bit better than being placed into a role with very limited agency and only visual appeal or love interest stays going for you. At the same time, all instances that are claimed to be feminine objectification are not so. Sexuality and having actual characterization and agency are not mutually exclusive, characters can be either eye candy/love interests or characters that move the story along and have actual personalities or *gasp* both or neither. Some who make these claims act as if sexuality is bad, it isn't, it becomes a problem when it's the character's defining characteristic or their entire persona to just be "sexy".

On the topic of male idealism in the video game industry I suggest this video: http://youtu.be/hR9UMgOFeLw
I don't agree with some things said but it raises some good points.

This is also something I wasn't aware of, the attitudes of some in the industry towards femal protagonists. I'd have to ask, are these studios worried about appeal without basis, simply assuming the general reactions? Is it that the general populace actually reacts to competent female protagonists in this way? Or is it the fear of company's to really fund games featuring female protagonists that undermines their types from the start, perpetuating a fear of failure by causing said failures?
http://youtu.be/7wnTunPrQJo

 

[1rkhachatryan]

I'm agree that the idea of the series is good in trying to acknowledge inequalities in the medium but her Peres ration and examples aren't completely sound and could have been done much better. Female characters in video games have gotten much better than the worst of them(read: Princess Peach) with actual agency and characterization past just being eye candy or a DiD(read: Ellie, Faith, etc.) but there are still those out there that keep the old tropes whose numbers are, thankfully, dwindling but are still present. It does seem like she hasn't actually played some of the titles she references(or is just stretching it a bit to make a point) and misses other actually good female characters completely.

On the point of men being constantly portrayed as big muscular tough guys... That is definitely a problem as it seems to set a standard of "this is what men should be". At the same time, this characterization of men is often less about objectifying men than it is to give the male audience a role model or guy they can root for. Is this objectively good thing? No, you can't just place every male into this box of "masculinity". However, I do think that it is a bit better than being placed into a role with very limited agency and only visual appeal or love interest stays going for you. At the same time, all instances that are claimed to be feminine objectification are not so. Sexuality and having actual characterization and agency are not mutually exclusive, characters can be either eye candy/love interests or characters that move the story along and have actual personalities or *gasp* both or neither. Some who make these claims act as if sexuality is bad, it isn't, it becomes a problem when it's the character's defining characteristic or their entire persona to just be "sexy".

On the topic of male idealism in the video game industry I suggest this video: http://youtu.be/hR9UMgOFeLw
I don't agree with some things said but it raises some good points.

This is also something I wasn't aware of, the attitudes of some in the industry towards femal protagonists. I'd have to ask, are these studios worried about appeal without basis, simply assuming the general reactions? Is it that the general populace actually reacts to competent female protagonists in this way? Or is it the fear of company's to really fund games featuring female protagonists that undermines their types from the start, perpetuating a fear of failure by causing said failures?
http://youtu.be/7wnTunPrQJo

Basically they don't want to make more games with females because they are afraid guys won't play or buy them(since they are still the majority buyers). I personally don't believe this since I love playing as a bad *** female but I guess that's the minority.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

These ******s should have just stayed on tumblr, since they nothing more than lousy Social Justice Warriors with a Kickstarted video series.

Feminism doesn't want equality, it wants women to non-consensually shame, emasculate and dominate men as a revenge scheme. That is why people like this fail so hard:They sound like cheesy amazonian stereotypes.

Just ignore them, and don't give in and make our future female protagonists to be emasculating as possible.

 

[shadow wolf]

Basically they don't want to make more games with females because they are afraid guys won't play or buy them(since they are still the majority buyers. I personally don't believe this since I love playing as a bad *** female but I guess that's the minority.

To add on, as this article is what that episode of the Jimquisition is based on. http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...se-publishers-dont-support-them#/entry/signin

What this says to me is video games as an industry is still very immature. Publishers believe that the male gamer majority are incapable of handling the fairer sex; ew cooties. Also, publishers so called evidence is sadly inconclusive. Since it appears as the publishers have been creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where games with the inclusion of playable female characters what-so-ever sells less, but because they don't invest the money necessary for it to have a chance to succeed, by pulling the same number of units as the male counterpart. If games are selling less not because of publisher missteps but because the male gamer majority perception is a very juvenile immaturity that girls are icky and somehow playing as them emasculates their perception of what being a man constitutes along with believing games are some kind of Boys Club, is frankly sad and pathetic. The thing I feel is important is the fact that this whole situation maybe suffering the chicken or the egg causality dilemma.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

These ******s should have just stayed on tumblr, since they nothing more than lousy Social Justice Warriors with a Kickstarted video series.

Feminism doesn't want equality, it wants women to non-consensually shame, emasculate and dominate men as a revenge scheme. That is why people like this fail so hard:They sound like cheesy amazonian stereotypes.

Just ignore them, and don't give in and make our future female protagonists to be emasculating as possible.

So wanting a bad *** female main character in a game=wanting no more games with male leads??

Wow, try watching the actual videos next time *sighs*...

Also this thread isn't about Feminism in general, go to the debate section for that, this is about Women in video games.

 

[bobjr]

These ******s should have just stayed on tumblr, since they nothing more than lousy Social Justice Warriors with a Kickstarted video series.

Feminism doesn't want equality, it wants women to non-consensually shame, emasculate and dominate men as a revenge scheme. That is why people like this fail so hard:They sound like cheesy amazonian stereotypes.

Just ignore them, and don't give in and make our future female protagonists to be emasculating as possible.

Just as a warning this isn't the "Whine about wrong things" thread. This is to discuss the series, not complain about feminism.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

Sorry about my feminism rant....

I do want bad*** females. I just don't want them at the other extreme of depiction of women, which I believe Tropes Vs. Women in Gaming is shooting for.

These people have good points, but they present them in a ham-fisted way that make it seem like they don't actually PLAY THE DARN GAME to see if it actually matches their agenda. Gamers will find your editing seams and poke holes in your presentation, thusly underlying your message. TvWiG needs to also use less Social Justice Warrioresque speech to speak to the common man(emphasis on man), instead of just other feminist SJWs.

I ask that they try harder to appeal to the industry, rather than emasculate and shame them about writing for a old-school, tried-and-true target audience.

 

[Baba Yaga]

Uh. Who is being "emasculated" by who, and how? I don't see how criticizing certain tropes in gaming amounts to anyone or anything being emasculated.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

I ask that they try harder to appeal to the industry, rather than emasculate and shame them about writing for a old-school, tried-and-true target audience.

1) If someone is emasculated by being called out on sexist attitudes, they should probably base their fragile masculinity on something else.

2) The analysis she offers isn't about changing the industry per se. Or rather that isn't the primary purpose of her videos. She is trying to give us, the audience a new perspective and the tools to analyze these games, because the media is an active contributor to our socialization. In the last video she even brings up the Third-Person Effect, which is a real thing, just google it.

3) The only reason why straight men are the "tried-and-true" demographic is because they are the only demographic who are ever targeted. If games are made for straight males and games are marketed to straight males. Then of course it's gonna become a boys club. To imply that the video games are a guy thing just because that's how it is, is completely asinine. If gaming is a boys club, it is so by design. But then again this argument is moot because gaming ISN'T a boys cub.

women make up 45 percent of all gamers and 46 percent of all “habitual video game purchasers.” In fact, adult women make up 31 percent of the video game population and boys under 17 only make up 19 percent. And in a study by Magid Advisors of people ages 45 to 64, about 61 percent of women play video games compared with only 57 percent of men.