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Tropical Monsoon (Rain Dance team)

R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
I've loved Kingdra ever since GSC, and now he finally has the potential to sweep beyond the usual water with Surf and Ice Beam. And seeing he works best in stormy weather, I decided to make a fairly competetive rain dance team. I'm not too concerned with this being the ultimate team on wifi, but I would like it to be able to hold its own in the competetive field. This is all from scratch, so I'm expecting a lot of fixes...

GYARADOS @ Leftovers
(Adamant)
Ability~Intimidate
212HP/16ATK/180DEF/100SPD
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Ice Fang
-Stone Edge

A common starter, and I think he'll work well with the team. Waterfall will be boosted after I've got rain up, and he'll help lure out something to get Electivire's motor running. Ice Fang helps with Garchomp, and Stone Edge for type coverage. Hopefully he won't need to Taunt TWavers since I can sneak in Electivire.

ELECTIVIRE @ Expert Belt
(Jolly)
Ability~Motor Drive
6HP/252ATK/252SPD
-Thunderpunch
-Ice Punch
-Cross Chop
-Earthquake

Works well with Gyarados, and should scare off any Skarms. He could work with the Lonely set and Thunder over Tpunch, but I'm probably going to bring him out right from Gyarados, and there might not be any rain going yet. I know Gyaravire is terribly OU, but he's a good sweeper and I've been wanting to use him for a while. Plus, he's more versatile than Magnezone.

LUDICOLO @ Wet Rock
(Calm)
Ability~Rain Dish
204HP/76SPATK/228SPDEF
-Rain Dance
-Surf/Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Leech Seed

My attempt at a special sponge. I really want Wet Rock for the item, so I went with Rain Dish to hopefully work as an alternative leftys. Still not sure about Surf or Giga Drain. I was thinking Giga Drain to help with other waters, even though Leech Seed should be enough.

BRONZONG @ Leftovers
Ability~Levitate
(Relaxed)
252HP/230DEF/28SPDEF
-Gyro Ball
-Hypnosis
-Reflect
-Stealth Rocks

Physical wall, and hopefully stops a lot of things that hurt this team. He still lacks recovery (and I don't have any wish-passer or anything), but hopefully once I've set up Kingdra, he can deal with a few threats too.

TOXICROAK @ Shell Bell/???
(Adamant)
Ability~Dry Skin
6HP/252ATK/252SPD
-Stone Edge/Poison Jab
-Focus Punch
-Cross Chop
-Sucker Punch

I like using eccentric, non-standard Pokemon, and who better than Toxicroak? Basically just a bunch of hard-hitting moves, and FP for if he can manage to scare off someone.

KINGDRA @ Leftovers
(Modest)
Ability~Swift Swim
252HP/242SPATK/16SPD
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rain Dance

Ice Beam is pretty much filler and to hit grass types a little harder, DP and Surf are his main sweeping moves. He needs the Leftys recovery, even though I'd like to use Wet Rock. Still not sure about EVs, is that too much for speed?

So that's the team. I think a physical wall with Wish might help out the team, considering I don't have a lot of recovery, but I really have no idea. I'm a little concerned about my only special attackers being water types, but I guess they don't share any weaknesses so it's alright.
 
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R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
Okay, a few changes...

I've loved Kingdra ever since GSC, and now he finally has the potential to sweep beyond the usual water with Surf and Ice Beam. And seeing he works best in stormy weather, I decided to make a fairly competetive rain dance team. I'm not too concerned with this being the ultimate team on wifi, but I would like it to be able to hold its own in the competetive field. This is all from scratch, so I'm expecting a lot of fixes...

GYARADOS @ Leftovers
(Adamant)
Ability~Intimidate
212HP/16ATK/180DEF/100SPD
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Taunt

A common starter, and I think he'll work well with the team. Waterfall will be boosted after I've got rain up, and he'll help lure out something to get Electivire's motor running. And I don't mind people bringing out TWavers, so I'm not sure I need Taunt except for phazing phear.

ELECTIVIRE @ Expert Belt
(Jolly)
Ability~Motor Drive
6HP/252ATK/252SPD
-Thunderpunch
-Ice Punch
-Cross Chop
-Earthquake

Works well with Gyarados, and should scare off any Skarms. He could work with the Lonely set and Thunder over Tpunch, but I'm probably going to bring him out right from Gyarados, and there might not be any rain going yet.

LUDICOLO @ Leftovers/Wet Rock
(Calm)
Ability~Rain Dish
204HP/76SPATK/228SPDEF
-Rain Dance
-Surf/Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Leech Seed

My attempt at a special sponge. I really want Wet Rock for the item, so I went with Rain Dish to hopefully work as an alternative leftys. I might just go with Giga Drain to help fight off waters.

BRONZONG @ Leftovers/Light Clay
Ability~Levitate
(Impish)
EVS???
-Gyro Ball
-Reflect
-Hypnosis
-Earthquake

No more fire weakness, sets up physical barrier to help rest of team, statuses, and kills those fast sweepers. I don't like dropping Leftys healing, but I think the extended defense boost might be worth it. And I'd rather not explode, considering he's my only way to stop physical attackers.

TOXICROAK @ Black Sludge
(Adamant/Careful)
Ability~Dry Skin
244HP/148ATK/116SPD
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Poison Jab
-Sucker Punch

I like using eccentric, non-standard Pokemon, and who better than Toxicroak? I don't think I need him to take Ice Beams from waters considering I have Ludicolo, so I went with a more offensive EV spread (which I'm guessing needs help). And since he doesn't need Rain Dance, I threw in Poison Jab for extra STAB. No idea what to do for item.

KINGDRA @ Wet Rock/Shell Bell
(Lonely)
Ability~Swift Swim
252ATK/242SPATK/16SPD
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance

With Electivire, I don't think I really need another mixed sweeper, so maybe Modest with Ice Beam over Waterfall?

So that's the team. I think a physical wall with Wish might help out the team, considering I don't have a lot of recovery, but I really have no idea. I'm a little concerned about my only special attackers being water types, but I guess they don't share any weaknesses so it's alright.
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
Phione has been suggested as a physical wall. I know Manaphy makes a great bulky water, what about Phione? It's stats don't seem as great as Bronzong (besides having slightly better HP), so how's its movepool?
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
Please! Will anybody at least do a quick rate. I don't need any massive help, just a few pointers or even pointing out any glaring weaknesses!
 
D

deaths_avenger

Diehard Trainer
Uh... Waterfall has been changed to a physical attack? So it won't do much damage...? I have yet to find a move to substitute. I personally would put Ice Beam on it without looking at what it can learn...but Iono
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
Yeah, Waterfall is physical, and the nature/EV spread allow it to be a mixed sweeper, which can help with Bliss. But Electivire kills Skarmbliss/most other Bliss/wall combos, so I don't think I need Kingdra to be mixed. But the only good substitutes are Ice Beam (which won't kill anything special the other two attacks can't handle) or Signal Beam (which might be fun for grass types maybe?).
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
But I want him to be a RDer since his movepool isn't as good as the other guys, and therefore hold the Wet Rock. I could always throw in Hydro Pump without Wide Lens for a sort of Hyper Beam OHKOer. Then, I can go with Modest nature with max SPATK.
 
D

DMFG

Aim for the horn!
Rainy_Day said:
GYARADOS @ Leftovers
(Adamant)
Ability~Intimidate
212HP/16ATK/180DEF/100SPD
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Taunt

I have mixed feelings about Taunt on a bulky spread. Then again, Metagross is hardly a threat to your team and you have Bronzong for Garchomp so.. yeah, why not

ELECTIVIRE @ Expert Belt
(Jolly)
Ability~Motor Drive
6HP/252ATK/252SPD
-Thunderpunch
-Ice Punch
-Cross Chop
-Earthquake

Best not to rely on rain if you don't have to. This guy is hard to bring in at the best of times now the gyara/vire combo has been done to death, and it's even worse for you as only Gyara attracts electric attacks, but with Rain Dance up things like Starmie won't be afraid to Surf Gyara, hitting Vire for about 75% (especially as they know Tbolt won't OHKO bulkier Gyara anyway, but will after a Surf).

Meanwhile Weezing will wall you utterly even if you come in on its Tbolt, Dusknoir's Willowisp prevents you coming in on him and other Gyara don't even use electric attacks to counter Gyara. That's every common Gyara counter that exists that you either can't come in safely on or can't come in at all on.

The gist of it is that Gyara/Vire combo is seriously overrated and you need to have a better plan than just slapping them together if you want to make it work

LUDICOLO @ Leftovers/Wet Rock
(Calm)
Ability~Rain Dish
204HP/76SPATK/228SPDEF
-Rain Dance
-Surf/Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Leech Seed

Leech Seed will beat bulky waters fine. If you want a Wet Rocker take Manaphy - your team isn't exactly short of bulky water counters after all. This guy won't stop any real special threat like Specsmence or Azelf anyway, and just stalls forever against Manaphy without achieving anything

BRONZONG @ Leftovers/Light Clay
Ability~Levitate
(Impish)
EVS???
-Gyro Ball
-Reflect
-Hypnosis
-Earthquake

You can't afford Light Clay on him - his lack of healing is bad enough as it is but without Lefties you'll find yourself in serious trouble against physical pokes. EVs aren't hard, just max HP, dump EVs into def until you're happy and put the rest in sp def. Relaxed if Gyro Balling

TOXICROAK @ Black Sludge
(Adamant/Careful)
Ability~Dry Skin
244HP/148ATK/116SPD
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Poison Jab
-Sucker Punch

This is a tough one. You definitely need more attack and Adamant - this guy doesn't hit very hard even then so you very much need the boost. Neither HP nor Speed are vital, given that you can't make 101 HP subs and are mainly going to be using priority modifier attacks. His defences are so bad that I don't think sub will achieve much.

Assuming you can predict, I'd put Pursuit over it and go max Attack and Speed, Adamant on this guy. Of course, you need some kind of incentive for them to switch and I don't think Poison Jab will cut it - I'd put Cross Chop over it. You then have fighting + dark coverage whether they stay in (CC, Sucker Punch) or switch out (Pursuit, Focus Punch).

KINGDRA @ Wet Rock/Shell Bell
(Lonely)
Ability~Swift Swim
252ATK/242SPATK/16SPD
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance

He makes a great late game sweeper once a Wet Rock'd Rain Dance is up, but really only special. He can't really take on Blissey even going mixed, so I just wouldn't bother.

I don't think you should use Wet Rock on him - it doesn't suit him at all. By all means keep Rain Dance but I'd stick with Life Orb or Leftovers.

So that's the team. I think a physical wall with Wish might help out the team, considering I don't have a lot of recovery, but I really have no idea. I'm a little concerned about my only special attackers being water types, but I guess they don't share any weaknesses so it's alright.
Click to expand...

T-tar is awkward for you. While it is hard for them to bring it in, once it gets in you're in a lot of trouble as CBTar does 45 - 52% to 338 / 352 Bronzong, which is really ouch.

Specsmence is also a big problem. You might think not because Bronzong walls him pretty well (he does), but then you realise that Garchomp, Specsmence, T-tar, Azelf and probably lots more as well are only countered by Bronzong.

That's pinning a lot of very dangerous, hardhitting pokemon (all of which can take big chunks out of Bronzong) on a poke which can only really sleep opponents, has no recovery outside of Leftovers, and will just generally die really fast for a wall.

So, I'd start by drop Ludicolo for something to help out with all these threats. I'd also want to fit a Wet Rock Manaphy there somewhere as it sets up Rain Dance so well.
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
DMFD, thank you so much for the high-quality rate. That one post is more help than I've gotten from many posts with this team on 3 boards (including smogon) in the past week.

GYARADOS: I'm not really sure about Taunt either. Considering it'll only help against Breloom and maybe a Gengar with Hypnosis really, I might as well just go with 3 attacks. Any suggestion with Earthquake vs. Ice Fang?

ELECTIVIRE: My thoughts with throwing him in weren't only to work with Gyarados; it's more to prevent anyone else from abusing my rain for Thunders, plus he's just a strong physical sweeper (which is pretty important, considering Toxicroak is so fragile). I'm thinking of dropping Ludicolo for Vaporeon, which might make this guy a little more useful, since I'll then have 2 weak to electric.

LUDICOLO: I really like him, but if he isn't helping the team out much besides setting up rain, I guess I'm willing to drop him. I really don't want to use Manaphy (I don't have easy access to one, and there's so many people who consider it uber or ban all legendaries). What about Vaporeon? Wish-passing will really help Bronzong (and the rest of the team of course), he can pass better subs to Toxicroak or Aqua Ring healing to guys w/out Leftys, and absorbs water attacks. This could work with Starmie, forcing it to switch or go to Tbolt, making it easier for Electivire to come in.

Still, why can't Ludicolo stop CSpecsMence? Draco Meteor will still hit hard, but everything else shouldn't do much, and Ice Beam should be a OHKO.

BRONZONG: I figured he'd need Leftys healing. And should I not max DEF, or just put 160+ and then a good amount into SPDEF? Anything into ATK for Quake?

TOXICROAK: Is 311 attack high enough to go with Jolly nature? I might do both CC and FP, but I'm not sure about Pursuit; it's not STABed, and he doesn't exactly have the power/scare factor of Heracross. And even thought poison isn't a very good offensive type (well, not that great a type at all really), I think the STAB might help him hit a bit harder. He'll get walled by Weezing/Skarm/any physical wall anyways.

KINGDRA: If I have Vaporeon passing Aqua Ring, would it be alright to keep Wet Rock? I'd really like to have both RDers with Wet Rock, but it's not necessary. I don't know about Life Orb, considering he doesn't have abysmal defenses, but it would help him get more OHKOs (in which case a bit of "recoil" damage wouldn't be so bad). Any idea whether Ice Beam or Signal Beam is better in that extra moveslot? And what should I do for EVs? I'd like to do a more bulky spread, but just going max speed/SPATK is alright too (or w/e speed he needs to be ultimate-fast with SS).

Are there any other bulky guys to help with the sweeper-threats that would fit in well? What about dropping Gyarados for someone and starting with Electivire?
 
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D

DMFG

Aim for the horn!
Rainy_Day said:
DMFD, thank you so much for the high-quality rate. That one post is more help than I've gotten from many posts with this team on 3 boards (including smogon) in the past week.

You're welcome :)

GYARADOS: I'm not really sure about Taunt either. Considering it'll only help against Breloom and maybe a Gengar with Hypnosis really, I might as well just go with 3 attacks. Any suggestion with Earthquake vs. Ice Fang?

Taunt's usefulness against other leads is very limited, true, but the point is that it will allow him to set up against a lot of things he couldn't otherwise. So it's more of a lategame threat. That said, it also completely annihilates Ninjask leads, though Sash Ninjask is a crappy strat anyway IMO.

For EQ vs Ice Fang (not just on this team but also in general) - ask yourself: "Do I need a Garchomp counter? Do I need a Metagross counter?" If you need to counter Chomp then take Ice Fang, if you need to counter Gross take EQ and if you fear neither and just want to sweep then EQ is generally better.

ELECTIVIRE: My thoughts with throwing him in weren't only to work with Gyarados; it's more to prevent anyone else from abusing my rain for Thunders, plus he's just a strong physical sweeper (which is pretty important, considering Toxicroak is so fragile). I'm thinking of dropping Ludicolo for Vaporeon, which might make this guy a little more useful, since I'll then have 2 weak to electric.

He is a good sweeper, even without the Motor Drive boost, so fair enough. I don't think you need to worry too much about enemy Thunders - noone thinks "I could take Tbolt but I'll take Thunder just in case my opp is a Rain Dance team".

LUDICOLO: I really like him, but if he isn't helping the team out much besides setting up rain, I guess I'm willing to drop him. I really don't want to use Manaphy (I don't have easy access to one, and there's so many people who consider it uber or ban all legendaries). What about Vaporeon? Wish-passing will really help Bronzong (and the rest of the team of course), he can pass better subs to Toxicroak or Aqua Ring healing to guys w/out Leftys, and absorbs water attacks. This could work with Starmie, forcing it to switch or go to Tbolt, making it easier for Electivire to come in.

I've been thinking a bit more about Ludi and perhaps I was a little harsh on him. While it's true he's not stopping Specsmence/Azelf/etc any time soon, he does do a pretty decent job of setting up Rain Dance, and that's a crucial enough element of your team that just that one job alone might earn him a spot.

He's probably better at setting up rain than Vaporeon, who really suffers from lack of any healing, whereas Ludi has the very effective Leech Seed. I'd probably take Swift Swim over Rain Dish but if you have Rain Dish that will heal too.

If you use Vaporeon don't bother with Aqua Ring - Wish will already pass 50% instant healing and you can't afford the moveslot nor the extra setup turn for Aqua Ring

Still, why can't Ludicolo stop CSpecsMence? Draco Meteor will still hit hard, but everything else shouldn't do much, and Ice Beam should be a OHKO.

CSMence does 70% minimum to Ludicolo with Draco Meteor so obviously taking those won't be fun. Yes, you do resist his other attacks, but.. what exactly is his incentive to use them? CSMence tend to fire off Meteors early on just to get a feel for what your counter is. Once he realises you're a Rain Dance team using Bronzong to soak his attacks, he has no reason to use any other attack (NVE Draco Meteor does more than SE Flamethrower in rain).

The other problem is that neither of Ludi's "secret weapons" are terrible usefu against Specsmence. Rain Dish will mean that specsmence can't guarantee 2HKOing you with successive Meteors but he will just switch out. Swift Swim allows you to outspeed and OHKO with Ice Beam, but the lack of Rain Dish recovery will give it away and he will realise and switch

BRONZONG: I figured he'd need Leftys healing. And should I not max DEF, or just put 160+ and then a good amount into SPDEF? Anything into ATK for Quake?

EVs give diminishing returns to the point where it's generally not worth maxing a defence. However, on a poke like Bronzong with relatively low defences, you can if you like.

I wouldn't bother pumping attack - T-tar and Metagross aren't going to be terribly afraid of your EQs regardless. I'm not sure of the exact Gyro Ball formula, but if it hits the max power (150) then it will 2HKO Sally and Azelf without Attack EVs.

In fact, EQ on this guy isn't really useful for anything and you don't have Stealth Rock anywhere. I'd put SR over EQ (how did I miss that first time? lol)

TOXICROAK: Is 311 attack high enough to go with Jolly nature? I might do both CC and FP, but I'm not sure about Pursuit; it's not STABed, and he doesn't exactly have the power/scare factor of Heracross. And even thought poison isn't a very good offensive type (well, not that great a type at all really), I think the STAB might help him hit a bit harder. He'll get walled by Weezing/Skarm/any physical wall anyways.

You might go Jolly but I'm not sure what the advantage is. 295 isn't great as you are still slower than base 100ers and most base 90/95 take a +speed nature so you don't outspeed those either. It could work I guess but I wouldn't personally.

Pursuit is a bit iffy I'll agree - you might put Stone Edge over it seeing as Fighting + Rock is nice coverage

KINGDRA: If I have Vaporeon passing Aqua Ring, would it be alright to keep Wet Rock? I'd really like to have both RDers with Wet Rock, but it's not necessary. I don't know about Life Orb, considering he doesn't have abysmal defenses, but it would help him get more OHKOs (in which case a bit of "recoil" damage wouldn't be so bad). Any idea whether Ice Beam or Signal Beam is better in that extra moveslot? And what should I do for EVs? I'd like to do a more bulky spread, but just going max speed/SPATK is alright too (or w/e speed he needs to be ultimate-fast with SS).

IMO you shouldn't be using a sweeper to set up other pokes. Kingdra is too fragile and lacks any kind of healing. The lack of weaknesses is a bit of a red herring IMO as on the other hand he lacks useful resistances, making him tough to actually bring on. The reason I think you should keep Rain Dance at all is because even Wet Rock'd Rain Dance ends much sooner than you'd like, and you don't want your sweep interrupted by clear skies. Kingdra has the defences to take a hit whilst bringing the rain back up (for his own purposes only).

Ice Beam is definitely better than Signal Beam - neutral Surfs will hit anything you might have wanted to Signal Beam harder.

For EVs I'd just go Modest, max Sp Atk and HP, but I'm not very imaginitive.

Are there any other bulky guys to help with the sweeper-threats that would fit in well? What about dropping Gyarados for someone and starting with Electivire?
Click to expand...

Gyara can be used for Chomp coverage with Ice Fang. I wouldn't drop him as he's the only thing that's stopping things like Heracross from running all over you.

I would never start with Vire - one of his biggest strengths is the threat that he poses when you don't even know if he's there or not. I nearly lost a game a while back where I'd only seen 5 of his pokes including Gyara and was too afraid to Tbolt it with Starmie as he'd taken out my Vire counter by this point. He bravely stayed in, got an extra DD and nearly swept me, and it turned out he didn't even have Vire in the first place.

Giving up a huge advantage like that at turn 1 seems like a complete waste to me.

Anyway, just some thoughts for you to mull over - to be honest there are millions of things you could change on the team, so probably the best way is just to fiddle some, battle some, see what works and what doesn't.
 
R

Rainy_Day

Swimmer
Alright, I think I'll just edit the first post instead of trying to reply to all those.

And I agree that the best way to really help the team at this point is to just start testing it. I wish we had an online D/P battling system up (if we do, please let me know, but as of now I don't know of any), because I'd hate to raise the 6 of these only to find out I have to re-breed almost everyone.
 
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