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Troubles of modern society

rook09

Of science.
I was thinking the other month whilst watching the August riots and recession troubles on TV and asked myself, 'Is modern society a good thing?'

My point is that if we had not created a society of which we all need to conform, would there be any troublemakers or stereotypes? If we hadn't created money, would the recession and thefts exist? If we hadn't have created jobs, would we have people depressed over losing their jobs and monetary troubles? If we hadn't created weapons, armies and bombs, would their be wars?

In all, I'm asking: 'In attempting to create a better society, have we destroyed any chances of a good modern society?'

I personally believe that this is the case, as when we look at animals who live in the wild with the most basic of societies, we see a life which is troubled with minimal problems, whereas humans are now constantly plagued by fears of war, recession and negativity. But what's your outlook on this?
 

Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy

Well-Known Member
I was thinking the other month whilst watching the August riots and recession troubles on TV and asked myself, 'Is modern society a good thing?'

Considering you even have a TV to watch that and the computer to post this, it seems to be working out pretty well for you.

My point is that if we had not created a society of which we all need to conform, would there be any troublemakers or stereotypes?

How exactly are we all conforming? If anything, to me people appear to conform on the idea that nonconformism is good. Students are told all the time what special snowflakes they are in schools, for example, but they're far more unruly today than back when the teacher whacked them with a cane and told them to sit down and shut up like all the others.

I'm not saying that that was great, but there's certainly less discipline these days than back when people were actually compelled to conform more often.

If we hadn't created money, would the recession and thefts exist?

Why do you think a trade and barter system would be so much better? We wouldn't have recessions because we wouldn't have an economy. Surely you can see how that would be a bad thing, yes? Stealing is obviously also going to happen, since if you look to several tribal nomad societies they had no money but were still very eager to loot and rape their way through rich places when they had the opportunity.

If we hadn't have created jobs, would we have people depressed over losing their jobs and monetary troubles?

You know, a job is a job, whether it's called that or not. Even if you're working for yourself to grow crops in your backyard or hunting something, that's still work that needs to be done for yourself. If there are no jobs, there is no food, and you die. Now it's a bit more abstracted by that people need jobs to get money with which to purchase food, but the bottom line is that if they don't do anything, they die.

If we hadn't created weapons, armies and bombs, would their be wars?

Yes, because someone else would have created them and used them on you! There were some really isolated and peaceful tribes of people with no real concept of weapons, they got wiped off the face of the Earth. If you have weapons, it gives you some degree of safety since the person who might otherwise attack you has to balance that impulse with the question, "But is that worth potentially getting hurt or dying?"


I personally believe that this is the case, as when we look at animals who live in the wild with the most basic of societies, we see a life which is troubled with minimal problems,

Which animals are these that you speak of? There are animals that engage in wars, that torture for the fun of it, ones that live in constant fear of being devoured, ones that engage in rape and cannibalism... I can specify those if you want me to, but I don't think I should need to do that.

whereas humans are now constantly plagued by fears of war, recession and negativity. But what's your outlook on this?

We need something to complain about, don't we? But overall, we're living far better lives than our forefathers could have dreamed of. For example, wars: which wars are you talking about? Ones like the war in Afghanistan and Vietnam are absolutely miniscule when compared to the massive costs of either World War, for example. The recession might be bad, but certainly not so when compared to the Great Depression, or any time when economic hardship meant literally starving to death.

I will agree that we're much more negative now. It seems strange that the happiest people in the world are living in some of the worse conditions while incredibly privileged first-world nations are leading in rates of suicide, but there you go.
 

Ludwig

Well-Known Member
I don't know a lot about the society, but it seem to give negative effects to (Swedish) schools, at least the current politics give those effects.

To get good grades, you need to give answers to questions that the question doesn't ask for (and there is no indication about what else you need to answer). Knowledge got less priority than being able to "discuss" and argue for your opinion. Being able to analyze is important if you are going to work as a researcher, but the grade criteria ask for more, you need to have an opinion even if the information isn't sufficient for a definite fact or something that is extremely likely. That applies to all subjects, even science and to some extent mathematics. One example is to discuss how you think that the first form of life was created, but there is no definite answer and the most accurate answer that is possible to give is to list everything that is chemically possible, which isn't considered a discussion (thus won't give a good grade). Summarizing: It's more important to have an opinion with a non-perfect basis than knowing something definite or very likely.

Whatever else the society affects doesn't concern me.
 

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
We live in a post-modern world, twit. Modernity is over.
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
Your question is entirely subject to what "good" and "better" mean. What is good, what is better? I think you are posing this question from a very narrow-minded perspective. If the world ran as you wanted it, you'd find yourself on the back foot as people take advantage of the utopianism - because that's just how people work.

As for the whole animals thing... I cannot begin to express how wrong you are. Almost every wildlife documentary you will ever see will prove this point. No worries? How about-
-Finding reliable food sources
-Constantly adapting to climate
-Staying clear of predators
-Not getting bested by rivals
-Keeping hold of territory (links to above)
-Avoiding infection from one of the myriad of diseases which will indubitably catch up to you sooner or later
-Finding a mate in the short time between maturity and inevitable death from one of these causes

Funnily enough, we can apply a lot of these to ourselves. Why, it's almost as if we're nothing more than...animals. Difference being, this heavily flawed society we have makes the consequences far, far less disastrous if things go wrong.
 

rook09

Of science.
Okay, well so far you've torn apart my argument XD
Let's change a couple of things around to make my point clearer.

Okay, maybe animals was a bad idea, but if we look at simplistic lifeforms then we see that, yes, their life maybe mundane and bland, but do they fear each other? No. Look at humans; we've attempted to make things better with our intelligence AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S A BAD THING! I'm saying that because we are intelligent we should use this for good things. Like being prepared for natural disasters. Like being prepared for monetary problems. Not seeing who can put the biggest holes in the globe with nukes. To put it bluntly, I find that we've screwed ourselves because of intelligence mixed with stupidity. We always seem to find the negatives in situations which would benefit us much better if they were a lot more simple. Now, I'm not meaning every situation. I'm meaning situations like the bartering situation mention above. If it wasn't for humans desiring to steal, kill, rape, loot, pillage etc. other 'colonies' then the bartering system would be much more effective. So we create money. That's just the same, but instead a waste of resources. If we could strip things back and make people realize that in their acts of negativity we create negativity by trying to stop this negativity.

And society creates rules to prevent this negativity, which is a way of making us conform. A recent discussion we had in my psychology class came to a conclusion that humans wish not to conform. We have to conform, which makes people want to break those rules and not conform (which therefor means we would always conform anyway, but that paradox is a bit off topic).

If humans didn't perform these negative acts, then we would be able to help each other, and create things to make our society better without feeling the desire to blow holes in the globe. If a famine occurs in a third world country, then we could help, without leaders feeling the need to gain bragging rights over who supplied the most aid. If a volcanic eruption threatens to wipe a state off the face of the Earth, then we could help them and ourselves without running around panicking about some doomsday scenario which won't occur.

Call me naive, call me a wishful thinker, call me a 'twit' (a bit harsh), but that's how I view things. I know most of you probably won't agree with me, but, hey, that's what a debate is, isn't it?
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
Okay, maybe animals was a bad idea, but if we look at simplistic lifeforms then we see that, yes, their life maybe mundane and bland, but do they fear each other? No.
That's because they simply don't have the capacity to care. And at any rate, we don't die all the time. They die by the billions, every day.

Look at humans; we've attempted to make things better with our intelligence AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S A BAD THING!
What do you mean "attempted"? I'd say we've done a brilliant job of it. When was the last time anyone close to you died of cholera, smallpox, or a hungry bear?

I'm saying that because we are intelligent we should use this for good things. Like being prepared for natural disasters. Like being prepared for monetary problems.
So we should be looking over our shoulders without ever looking ahead? Being prepared is good and all, but what you're suggesting is globalised paranoia. Besides, you can't prepare for everything.

Not seeing who can put the biggest holes in the globe with nukes. To put it bluntly, I find that we've screwed ourselves because of intelligence mixed with stupidity.
I find this only applies to Iran and Syria atm. Which are developing countries. They'll learn, hopefully.

We always seem to find the negatives in situations which would benefit us much better if they were a lot more simple. Now, I'm not meaning every situation. I'm meaning situations like the bartering situation mention above. If it wasn't for humans desiring to steal, kill, rape, loot, pillage etc. other 'colonies' then the bartering system would be much more effective. So we create money. That's just the same, but instead a waste of resources. If we could strip things back and make people realize that in their acts of negativity we create negativity by trying to stop this negativity.
You're under the impression that you can actually make people forget their natural instincts? Not just suppress them, but actually remove them? Please, if you have some magic trick that can do this, enlighten me.

And society creates rules to prevent this negativity, which is a way of making us conform. A recent discussion we had in my psychology class came to a conclusion that humans wish not to conform. We have to conform, which makes people want to break those rules and not conform (which therefor means we would always conform anyway, but that paradox is a bit off topic).
But the whole point is that it's necessary, otherwise you end up with a dog-eat-dog/ every-man-for-himself society.

If humans didn't perform these negative acts, then we would be able to help each other, and create things to make our society better
We do.
without feeling the desire to blow holes in the globe.
We don't.

If a famine occurs in a third world country, then we could help, without leaders feeling the need to gain bragging rights over who supplied the most aid.
You're forgetting that normal people donate to good causes too.
If a volcanic eruption threatens to wipe a state off the face of the Earth, then we could help them and ourselves without running around panicking about some doomsday scenario which won't occur.
I have no idea what you're getting at here.
 

rook09

Of science.
I have no idea what you're getting at here.

I'm trying to get at the point that in bad situations most (not all I'll grant you) countries simply think of themselves, when often that bad situation will only affect some countries which we should help out together. And yes, normal people do donate to charity and causes, but often that money simply 'vanishes' amongst goverment files and such like (again, not all countries). I know I shouldn't, and this will probably contradict my entire argument by showing negativity at our attempts to make things better, but I'm rather skeptical on that sort of thing.
 
I thought of posting yesterday, but Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy had already expressed basically what I wanted to say. However, a few more things popped up, and I thought they needed attention:

I'm saying that because we are intelligent we should use this for good things. Like being prepared for natural disasters. Like being prepared for monetary problems. Not seeing who can put the biggest holes in the globe with nukes. To put it bluntly, I find that we've screwed ourselves because of intelligence mixed with stupidity.
I don't think it's merely stupidity. I'll explain in just a moment.


We don't.
I would disagree with you meteor64. It is quite apparent that some people do desire to devastate the planet. I don't think this can be chalked up to ignorance, but instead to humanity's potential for heinous acts.



On an entirely different note:

What do you mean "attempted"? I'd say we've done a brilliant job of it. When was the last time anyone close to you died of cholera, smallpox, or a hungry bear?
[IMG139]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Winniethepooh.png[/IMG139]
It seems bears have been going soft for quite some time now.
 

Cruisin'

Well-Known Member
It's ok rook09, I know what your saying bro, and I agree. :)

The world will never be the way any of us want, but that's not our problem. We gotta make the best of what we got without burdening anybody in the process, and life will work it's way out as long as you don't give up and take the easy path.

I just laugh at all the BS that exists in this world. People are F'ing stupid, can't change that. Just be at peace with yourself and your surroundings. Debates like this are quite pointless as they lead no where, and if anything only strengthen the walls we put between us since they usually just cause us to argue and disagree with one another to no end.

Trust me, I've tired talking to my friends about how religion and money and all that are taking over the world in a terrible way, but nobody wants to hear that crap. Sure a few of them may agree, but most are just so integrated in their beliefs that you are only going to annoy or offend them. They can be so close minded, that no amount of sense or logic can penetrate their thick skulls. Like I sad, people are F'ing stupid. Gotta live and let live, and ignore the ignorant haters...
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
Narrow-minded thinking and money are just symptoms of the vices that humans just have. It's not the device, but the driver. Humans are somewhat helpless to their own form and limitations. We can imagine all sorts of possibilities, but only actually achieve a fraction of what is possible. It's no good scolding the human race for not being everything we can imagine, we're not perfect.

It's kind of funny, really. We blame all these external causes for keeping the human race behind, when really it's the human race that is flawed. And if the human race is flawed, then the best thing for the human race is to lead a flawed existence, but we always defer to this idealistic vision and ask for the human race to constantly outperform ourselves. So we're kind of functioning on burnout constantly, overexerting ourselves and getting swept back by our own glitches. It's like we're always running on a treadmill, or a hamster wheel, running in place.
 

rook09

Of science.
if we hadnt created war, we wouldnt have created peace either. yin yang rules out all your arguements

But why is it humans have to have war to get to peace, when we could just skip the killing, maiming and destruction of war and have peace? We don't need war to have peace; we need no war to have peace.
 

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
It's because at our heart we ARE savage beasts. In times of calamity we see it in looting robbing and all the rest of the barbaric behavior we see. SO to insure peace we must prepare for war. Because If we had something nobody else did they would be willing to crush our skulls in to get it from us. Seriously have you seen the news air have a story of two parties settling things like grown ups?
 

Schade

Metallic Wonder
My point is that if we had not created a society of which we all need to conform, would there be any troublemakers or stereotypes? If we hadn't created money, would the recession and thefts exist? If we hadn't have created jobs, would we have people depressed over losing their jobs and monetary troubles? If we hadn't created weapons, armies and bombs, would their be wars?

All this is important for a society to work out. People loosing their jobs and be depressed about it is their problems, not the society
 
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