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U.S. Politics 2021: Ignore the Neighslayers

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
I really get annoyed when people try and link Covid to some conspiracy theory. The closest thing to a 'conspiracy' there is on this (and it isn't really a conspiracy as much as it is a fundamental pattern of the natural world) is that it might be the planet's way of saying that humanity is bad for the world and needs to go.
Not so much that humanity is bad and needs to go, COVID is more survival of the fittest. Diseases usually tend to be a natural method of population control, they spread fast in populated areas and cut down a species' numbers.

I do think it's actually somewhat plausible that COVID could be manmade, but it's equally plausible that it just naturally evolved because Mother Nature is saying the Earth can't support 7 billion people. Without any concrete evidence, it's hard to say. Either way though, there's definitely no legitimate reason to tell people not to get the vaccine, that's just a blatant attempt to cull the herd.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
We’ve had diseases and plagues for thousands of years, it’s only a recent thing that we could stop them.

Also more vaccine mandates could be coming on individual levels, but we are at the point where we either punish those who did get the vaccine, or punish those who don’t get it. Even if we offered 500 dollars to get the vaccine it won’t really work, so you need some negative reinforcement.
 

Phillies

Well-Known Member
In previous court cases Fox News has said it is entertainment, not News, so information lawsuits don't apply because obviously people should get that it's just entertainment.

They should call them on it then. Make them change their name to Fox Entertainment and put disclaimers in front of all their shows stating that nothing they say is factual and is for entertainment purposes only. Of course most of their sheep will still believe it but hopefully at least some people will wise up.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Also more vaccine mandates could be coming on individual levels, but we are at the point where we either punish those who did get the vaccine, or punish those who don’t get it. Even if we offered 500 dollars to get the vaccine it won’t really work, so you need some negative reinforcement.

Minor nitpick: negative reinforcement =/= punishment, negative reinforcement is when you take away something unpleasant as a reward (for example, if you offered a tax cut for people who got the vaccine).

As to your overall point, I don't think punishing the people who don't get the vaccine will work. Or at least not entirely. Then they'll just distrust authorities even more. They need to punish the people spreading misinformation about the vaccine and COVID to really get people to accept it.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
If it’s already at this point I don’t see how they improve on it. Being too soft on them now just reinforces their view already. I’d rather start protecting those I can instead.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
We’ve had diseases and plagues for thousands of years, it’s only a recent thing that we could stop them.

Also more vaccine mandates could be coming on individual levels, but we are at the point where we either punish those who did get the vaccine, or punish those who don’t get it. Even if we offered 500 dollars to get the vaccine it won’t really work, so you need some negative reinforcement.
They're discussing various ideas for possible consequences. One idea is for them to pressure (they use the word 'motivate', but we all know what they really mean) employers to make workers get the vaccine (which might already be starting to happen), and various other things (doctors are actually suggesting that politicians come down as hard on anti-vaxxers as they do on DUI offenders).

But the point they seem to be making is this. When it came to the individual mandate for Obamacare, there were still a lot of people that didn't get insurance for one reason or another, and all that happened to them was a slap on the wrist. But they're talking about making it so the consequences for not getting the vaccine are something that someone can't just simply 'shrug off'. The idea is that it might not be popular, but new rules rarely are popular and there is always resistance to them. If the consequences for breaking a rule are something that someone can simply shrug off, then there is no effective difference between having consequences and not having consequences.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
There is a difference at least with several states refusing health care expansion so people still suffered from lack of a healthcare access, when in this situation the vaccine is free and easily available across the US.

But the problem with mRNA vaccines is they get much less effective over time if we don't reach herd immunity, so something actually has to be done. It's not that I like that we have to force consequences, but I don't see any better options.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
Make the vaccines completely free for every nation and not patented, trademarked or copyrighted.

Declare products tainted if the workers aren't vaccinated at the company's expense.

Fine people, non-profits, foreign agents(that can be) and corporations $100,000 by the non-fact about vaccines retroactively for mis/disinformation.

(The latter 2 include social media posts, anonymous or not)

Legally seize the assets and destroy bogus "alternatives" of businesses, and arrest, seize the cash and assets their management and their stockholders that profit off of mis/disinformation as public infohazardous and health threats if they don't comply and/or try to sue their way out of things.

Raise taxes on wealthy citizens of states that do not comply.

Firm up medical and end religious exceptions, with the formation of panels of medical and religious experts to determine if conditions, and ANY kind of religious text, EXPLICITLY give exemptions.

Universal mask requirements, not mandates or suggestions. No exceptions, and $100,000 fines for being unmasked in public. INCLUDING politicians.

That's how harsh it needs to be with this.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Make the vaccines completely free for every nation and not patented, trademarked or copyrighted.

Declare products tainted if the workers aren't vaccinated at the company's expense.

Fine people, non-profits, foreign agents(that can be) and corporations $100,000 by the non-fact about vaccines retroactively for mis/disinformation.

(The latter 2 include social media posts, anonymous or not)

Legally seize the assets and destroy bogus "alternatives" of businesses, and arrest, seize the cash and assets their management and their stockholders that profit off of mis/disinformation as public infohazardous and health threats if they don't comply and/or try to sue their way out of things.

Raise taxes on wealthy citizens of states that do not comply.

Firm up medical and end religious exceptions, with the formation of panels of medical and religious experts to determine if conditions, and ANY kind of religious text, EXPLICITLY give exemptions.

Universal mask requirements, not mandates or suggestions. No exceptions, and $100,000 fines for being unmasked in public. INCLUDING politicians.

That's how harsh it needs to be with this.
Well, these are pretty delicious ideas. Everything except the first part and the social media part would be relatively easy to do. If the vaccine is free (and it is in most places), then most people should have no trouble getting one.

But I was just thinking job loss for people that refuse to get the vaccine. Also no-fly lists for unvaccinated persons and no-bus lists for likewise (an extreme would be making it so unvaccinated people couldn't go into stores or buy things online). I think that would be enough. And by the way, it's easy to determine if someone got the vaccine. Everyone that gets this vaccine gets a card or paper certifying that they've been vaccinated. I have mine in my wallet right now. All they have to do is ask for it. And because I know SOMEONE will bring this up, you can easily get a replacement for the card if it's lost or stolen. Just go to your healthcare facility where you got the vaccine, or the Pharmacy or whatnot. They will have a record of you getting it, and they'll be able to give you a replacement card. So no excuses there either.

And by the way, if everybody got the vaccine, then the government would stop imposing the bad consequences.
 

Zora

perpetually tired

CDC two months ago: pandemic over
CDC now: actually it's not

I'll wait until the press release and for epidemiologists to weigh in, but I have a gut feeling this really is an indictment on people just refusing to vaccinate. Unfortunately, waiting around hoping people will "just" get over vaccine hesitancy is *not* a reliable endgame; government leaders need to take the kid gloves off if we want to vaccinate the population at large. Even so, since we're not sure how much delta transmits via vaccinated folks and there's still a chance of breakthrough infections, wearing masks is still a good tentative policy--better safe than sorry, etc..
 

AuraChannelerChris

"Tis an honor to be recognized."
We can all agree that the CDC made a MASSIVE MISTAKE saying that it was okay to take off masks for unvaccinated people when the virus was still going around.

Especially around the red states.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I think they really miscalculated that masks got too political, but obviously people will get vaccinated at a healthy level.

But instead we get states that barely get 40%, and we basically have to force mandatory restrictions if we want something done about it
 

Zora

perpetually tired
We can all agree that the CDC made a MASSIVE MISTAKE saying that it was okay to take off masks for unvaccinated people when the virus was still going around.

Especially around the red states.

they never actually said that.

They only ever said masks off was fine only for vaccinated folks† however, with no system in place for verifying vaccination status (and governors like Abbott taking pre-emptive measures to make sure no such passport system could be in place), it was an honor system. And signage in Texas is like "VACCINES OPTIONAL (if you're vaccinated)." So while the actual science was sound (i.e. breakthroughs and transmission are rare), CDC recommendations made poor policy because it completely ignored that honor systems do not work and without checks people would reap the reward (no masks) without the requisite effort (being vaccinated). Basically a "biologists do not make good social scientists" situation.

----------------------------------
†technically, they allowed masks off irrespective of vaccination status for certain situations--e.g. socially distanced and outdoors--where transmission was never documented, at least for alpha and beta variants.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"Tis an honor to be recognized."
they never actually said that.
Oh. Well, I do remember there was something they did wrong that people were against it.
 

Zora

perpetually tired
Oh. Well, I do remember there was something they did wrong that people were against it.
The screw-up was the lack of checks.

Even if the policy was "no masks if you're vaccinated" on paper, anyone with the slightest understanding of sociology knew the de facto policy would be "no masks period." CDC expected the former; the latter panned out.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I do think there was some pressure from above, where you could have had a push for some kind of vaccine passport for verification, but it would have been seen as potentially too politically unpopular.
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
She thinks she's MTG but using a Democrat label.

Not cute. Not funny.

And civic duty overrides vacations.
Exactly.

She needs to be voted out.
 
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