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U.S. Politics: The Biggest Trade in WNBA History

SBaby

Dungeon Master
You know, there is a part of me right now that hopes that all of these sanctions hit Russia hard enough that the citizens who have opposed and protested against Putin's war crimes decide enough is enough and decide to overthrow their government. Its almost damn near impossible, but it would be nice to see them put a stop to Putin's madness themselves. There is no reasoning with this disgusting excuse for a human being. Putin is not gonna walk away until he has the Ukraine fully in his control, and you know he won't stop there. He won't stop until he's conquered and reunited the Soviet Union.
Unfortunately, his endgame is far worse than simply reuniting the Soviet Union. That's only one part of the equation. During COVID, Putin was looking through very old maps and treaties that existed way before the Soviet Union had that name. He's looking to regain ALL of the territory that Russia ever held that they lost over time. That's his endgame, to re-establish it as a full on empire. And he won't stop until he does this. That's why we are in World War III right now, whether we realize it or not. Because he isn't done after Ukraine. He's not done by a longshot. Ukraine is only the beginning. That's why we need to stop him now. If we don't, the time will come when the choice will be made for us. We're joining the battle, whether it's now or later.

And equally unfortunately the idea of the ordinary Russian citizens overthrowing the government is a practical impossibility, because the KGB is FIERCELY loyal to Putin (blindly so), and any time the people have even shown the slightest amount of civil disobedience during this situation, they've been rounded up and imprisoned, likely never to see the light of day again (that is if they're lucky; he could be executing them to make examples). He's calling any kind of protesting 'treason', and treating protesters like they're enemies of the state.

This guy is the next Hitler, and we're going to have to start making some hard decisions. And it will affect ALL OF US.
 
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Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Putin definitely has a horrible plan in play right now. Invading the Ukraine is something he wanted to do for a really long time as previous leaders of Russia before Putin had no interest in the country after the collapse of the USSR and let them be their own culture. Then the civil unrest started over there and I think that’s when Putin started scheming as it is easier to invade and capture a nation if it is weakened from civil unrest. China I believe is only teaming up with Russia because they share a border and China has basically ruined any useable land for resources when they tried to urbanize the entire country and built factories literally everywhere. Trump not getting re-elected is a true blessing because things would be far worse if he was still in charge and he’d probably give Russia some sort of secret aid in the invasion given the very strange relationship he had with Putin. I mean something always seemed off whenever they were seen together and how each praised the other. And Trump probably would have found a way to get away with it too given he managed to get out of trouble for allowing the Capitol Riot to happen and even told the participants to go there while they were at the White House.

Biden I don’t think is “weak” but he is stuck in a horrible spot where he is going to be ripped apart no matter what action he takes to try to resolve the Ukraine Invasion situation. If he sends any troops over there, he’ll be accused of sending soldiers to their deaths over a conflict that is meaningless to the US as we aren’t getting anything if we would win. It would sort of be like Vietnam all over again. But if Biden does nothing then people will say that he doesn’t “care” about the Ukraine or the suffering of the people over there and he’s “too soft” to fight back. I mean what can you really do in a situation like this?
 

nel3

Crimson Dragon
what a classic strategy i will stop this war if you give me these 3 areas. atleast until he decides to find more Ukranian areas with a russian population... thats not even counting the countries once part of USSR. im not sure how this will end up but this seems like a good idea at this point.

 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Putin definitely has a horrible plan in play right now. Invading the Ukraine is something he wanted to do for a really long time as previous leaders of Russia before Putin had no interest in the country after the collapse of the USSR and let them be their own culture. Then the civil unrest started over there and I think that’s when Putin started scheming as it is easier to invade and capture a nation if it is weakened from civil unrest. China I believe is only teaming up with Russia because they share a border and China has basically ruined any useable land for resources when they tried to urbanize the entire country and built factories literally everywhere. Trump not getting re-elected is a true blessing because things would be far worse if he was still in charge and he’d probably give Russia some sort of secret aid in the invasion given the very strange relationship he had with Putin. I mean something always seemed off whenever they were seen together and how each praised the other. And Trump probably would have found a way to get away with it too given he managed to get out of trouble for allowing the Capitol Riot to happen and even told the participants to go there while they were at the White House.

Biden I don’t think is “weak” but he is stuck in a horrible spot where he is going to be ripped apart no matter what action he takes to try to resolve the Ukraine Invasion situation. If he sends any troops over there, he’ll be accused of sending soldiers to their deaths over a conflict that is meaningless to the US as we aren’t getting anything if we would win. It would sort of be like Vietnam all over again. But if Biden does nothing then people will say that he doesn’t “care” about the Ukraine or the suffering of the people over there and he’s “too soft” to fight back. I mean what can you really do in a situation like this?
Most politicians currently in office would do it wrong. When you have a war on your doorstep (and make no mistake, it is on our doorstep whether we like it or not), you have to expect a certain degree of risk. Every major war that the United States has EVER fought, has carried with it a considerable risk. Sometimes Presidents have to make decisions that aren't the most popular among constituents. When Lincoln went after slavery, it caused a Civil War. When Kennedy made the compromises he made, the consequences that he suffered are well, pretty obvious.

But the thing is, these Presidents did what was necessary at the time. Now it's our turn. We have a choice here. We can wait until the war comes to our shores (and it will) to do anything, or do something materially to stop them before it gets to that point. It would be far, FAR better to start now.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Lincoln didn’t go after slavery until the war started, it was the Confederate states that pushed for succession after John Brown’s raid and the federal government not helping with runaway slave laws.

But overall there’s 0 good reason to start an open war now, especially with things as is. Russia’s military having an incredibly poor showing on what was expected to be an easy march also shows that the country in no way could stand to a unified NATO response.

Especially since there’s somewhat of an argument that Sanctions hurt regular citizens the most and don’t affect the top nearly as bad, but and open war is that but worse.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Lincoln didn’t go after slavery until the war started, it was the Confederate states that pushed for succession after John Brown’s raid and the federal government not helping with runaway slave laws.

But overall there’s 0 good reason to start an open war now, especially with things as is. Russia’s military having an incredibly poor showing on what was expected to be an easy march also shows that the country in no way could stand to a unified NATO response.

Especially since there’s somewhat of an argument that Sanctions hurt regular citizens the most and don’t affect the top nearly as bad, but and open war is that but worse.
Like it or not, this is the beginning of World War III. So the fantasy of 'if we start an open war' is a crossed bridge that we're watching burn right now. Russia already started an open war. So it's too late to say that.

The problem is if we don't act now, we'll be forced to later when the situation is worse and it's harder to do. Russia is not done after they take Ukraine (and they will, make no mistake about it). They're going after other countries (which is why I said what I said about the old maps and treaties; read my post at the top of this page if you want to see that). If we're serious about protecting the free world, we need to make hard decisions. Wars always carry risks. This is no different from any other war that's been fought in history. The only difference is the form the risks take.
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Honestly if you’re so Pro-War we need to be in the best position to take out Russia, you kind of want them to spend as much time and resources as possible taking over Ukraine, as it’s clear the army is not as capable as described where a week in they’re out of fuel and food for soldiers.

Obviously that shouldn’t be the case, but Russia can’t even handle a one country war without devastating losses, let alone a unified NATO. Part of the calculus was even Ukraine not having protections and being an easy takeover, which it proved not to be. The second Russia tried to take any other country I don’t see how they could make any progress
 

SoHowAreYou

Well-Known Member
The problem is if we don't act now, we'll be forced to later when the situation is worse and it's harder to do. Russia is not done after they take Ukraine (and they will, make no mistake about it). They're going after other countries (which is why I said what I said about the old maps and treaties; read my post at the top of this page if you want to see that). If we're serious about protecting the free world, we need to make hard decisions. Wars always carry risks. This is no different from any other war that's been fought in history. The only difference is the form the risks take.

There's a lot wrong here. While I do agree that the Russians will probably "take" Ukraine eventually, the insurgency will consume the resources of the Russian armed forces. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan caused it to disintegrate. Ukraine will be so much worse for Russia. They have already proven to be horribly corrupt and inept. And here's the thing, despite all of the Russian chest thumping that they do to make people think that they're a credible military it's garbage. They're using old Soviet equipment that's horribly out of date because they can't afford to modernize.Their new wonder weapon tank that they wanted to replace their old T-72 variants, broke down and caught on fire in a parade. There's more stories like that but they're clownshoes. If this army went up against the Poles they would be slaughtered whole sale by a military that's been preparing for 30 years for a Russian invasion.

Also that hard decision to "protect" the free world would doom it. While I'm sure some of Russia's nuclear weapons are not usable given how awful everything about their military is, they definitely have enough to vaporize NATO. If war comes to our shores it will be in the form of the double flash, not a bunch barely trained conscripts. I don't know where you live but I live close enough to a high priority target that I will probably be dead within an hour of world war 3 starting. So uh yeah let's not do that.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Also that hard decision to "protect" the free world would doom it. While I'm sure some of Russia's nuclear weapons are not usable given how awful everything about their military is, they definitely have enough to vaporize NATO. If war comes to our shores it will be in the form of the double flash, not a bunch barely trained conscripts. I don't know where you live but I live close enough to a high priority target that I will probably be dead within an hour of world war 3 starting. So uh yeah let's not do that.
It takes courage to fight a war. Sometimes you have to take risks and have the guts to say enough is enough. Like I said, wars always carry risks. Also in the unlikely event of a nuclear war (more likely, Putin is just making empty threats; I doubt he has the guts to launch), you want to be the country that strikes first. If they hit you first, you are in big trouble. Simple as that. Also, let's pretend for a moment that Putin is just insane enough to use nukes. Who's to say he doesn't just get angry enough at the sanctions and failures of his forces and launch anyway?

Also the world would not outright end if there was a nuclear war. Earth would survive and heal itself over time. Even if humanity got wiped out (and it wouldn't, even in a full scale nuclear war), the planet would heal itself and cleanse itself. It would take awhile, but Earth would be fine.

The fact that almost the entire world dislikes Russia (Putin, really) and that Russia (Putin, really) hates everyone should tell anyone that another World War is rather impossible.
Most of the world hated Hitler.
 

Phillies

Well-Known Member
I read an article earlier this week that stated Putin is more likely to start a cyber war than a nuclear one. I don’t know how accurate that is but I think it’s probably true.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
We literally are seeing an example right now that saying enough is enough and attacking first that’s backfiring horribly. The idea that Putin would openly go for more, including several better prepared and armed countries, after this disaster I don’t think is the correct idea.

Worst case they do completely take Ukraine, but can’t reliably install a puppet state because of their crippled economy and a population that hates them.
 

Divine Retribution

No war but class war
Most of the world hated Hitler.

For like 7 years prior to WWII, this wasn't actually true. Hitler and the Nazi party were very popular among American business moguls and conservative politicians (big shocker, I know), at least until Hitler started his whole world conquest thing and photos of concentration camps started making their way back to the states, but even then America was largely non-interventionist until Pearl Harbor. Americans frankly didn't care until we were attacked, and the same could be said for a lot of other countries as well.

We didn't step in when Hitler invaded Poland unprovoked, or France, or started bombing Britain. We didn't step in when we found out he was wiping out massive swaths of his own people for the sake of some twisted idea of racial purity (an idea very similar to ones held by many Americans at the time). We only stepped in when a) we were attacked without warning by one of Hitler's allies and b) it was quite possible that the entirety of Europe would fall to Germany if we didn't, and why would he have stopped there? And when we finally broke down the German war machine at a scarcely imaginable human cost, did we focus on making sure that the atrocities that occurred during the Holocaust and WWII would never happen again? No, we immediately became paranoid about the Soviet Union and took it as an opportunity to build a buffer against them to protect our own political interests.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is nationalist and fascist rhetoric is very appealing to a not insignificant portion of the population. Hitler is definitely hated by most of the world after the fact, but before the true extent and nature of his crimes was known, he and his dangerous ideology were not hated by most of the world, they were quite popular for such extremist rhetoric.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
For like 7 years prior to WWII, this wasn't actually true. Hitler and the Nazi party were very popular among American business moguls and conservative politicians (big shocker, I know), at least until Hitler started his whole world conquest thing and photos of concentration camps started making their way back to the states, but even then America was largely non-interventionist until Pearl Harbor. Americans frankly didn't care until we were attacked, and the same could be said for a lot of other countries as well.

We didn't step in when Hitler invaded Poland unprovoked, or France, or started bombing Britain. We didn't step in when we found out he was wiping out massive swaths of his own people for the sake of some twisted idea of racial purity (an idea very similar to ones held by many Americans at the time). We only stepped in when a) we were attacked without warning by one of Hitler's allies and b) it was quite possible that the entirety of Europe would fall to Germany if we didn't, and why would he have stopped there? And when we finally broke down the German war machine at a scarcely imaginable human cost, did we focus on making sure that the atrocities that occurred during the Holocaust and WWII would never happen again? No, we immediately became paranoid about the Soviet Union and took it as an opportunity to build a buffer against them to protect our own political interests.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is nationalist and fascist rhetoric is very appealing to a not insignificant portion of the population. Hitler is definitely hated by most of the world after the fact, but before the true extent and nature of his crimes was known, he and his dangerous ideology were not hated by most of the world, they were quite popular for such extremist rhetoric.
What you're saying is correct. It usually does take an inordinate amount of time for the US and the Allies to get militarily involved in major wars. And self-preservation does tend to take precedence. But at some point, countries get involved militarily. That's the thing. And it might happen faster here because of how much the world hates Putin. The last part you mentioned has already happened in this instance and the world knows about it.

Do I WANT a major World War to happen? No. Do I think one is inevitable? Yeah, probably. At the end of the day, regardless of anyone's opinions here (mine included), they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Irrespective of our actions here, it won't affect their choices in this.
 
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Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Is it really a "World War" if it's just Russia vs. the rest of the world? The last two World Wars involved entire alliances of two different countries, so would a faction consisting of just one country really be enough for it to fit the definition of a "World War"? Might just be a semantic issue, but then again a major where we're fighting multiple countries instead of just one could be even more dangerous and deadly and might draw even more countries into the conflict.
 

Divine Retribution

No war but class war
Is it really a "World War" if it's just Russia vs. the rest of the world? The last two World Wars involved entire alliances of two different countries, so would a faction consisting of just one country really be enough for it to fit the definition of a "World War"? Might just be a semantic issue, but then again a major where we're fighting multiple countries instead of just one could be even more dangerous and deadly and might draw even more countries into the conflict.

Technically as long as most of the major nations of the world are involved, it's a world war, even if it's literally one country vs every other country. That being said, I don't think Russia is without allies. I think it could potentially have support from China, which would be dangerous, and it could foster relations through China with North Korea.

I also don't think a world war is inevitable, or even likely at this very moment. China's support for Russia is not guaranteed, and Putin has to be aware of the fact that there is absolutely no way a full-blown world war ends favorably for him without at least having China's sizeable military forces at his back, especially after he bungled his little 'blitzkrieg' on Ukraine so hard.

That could change if China does decide to completely throw in with Putin in the near future, but China and the U.S. have mutually dependent economic relationships so they have a strong incentive not to.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Technically as long as most of the major nations of the world are involved, it's a world war, even if it's literally one country vs every other country. That being said, I don't think Russia is without allies. I think it could potentially have support from China, which would be dangerous, and it could foster relations through China with North Korea.

I also don't think a world war is inevitable, or even likely at this very moment. China's support for Russia is not guaranteed, and Putin has to be aware of the fact that there is absolutely no way a full-blown world war ends favorably for him without at least having China's sizeable military forces at his back, especially after he bungled his little 'blitzkrieg' on Ukraine so hard.

That could change if China does decide to completely throw in with Putin in the near future, but China and the U.S. have mutually dependent economic relationships so they have a strong incentive not to.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. In practice a one country vs every other country would probably never happen, or at the very least that one country would have to be a superpower that feels they're militarily and/or economically dominant enough to be able to take on everyone else themselves (the U.S. could be that kind of country, but I don't think the stars are going to align for that to happen anytime soon). If the feeling is that Russia is alone in this, less countries around the world will feel a need to take up the fight anyway since they're not handling this competently and letting the local Eastern European countries fight off the Russians seems to be sufficient.

As far as Russia potentially gaining allies, as I've said a couple of times I'm most afraid of a Republican-controlled U.S. siding with Russia and China (North Korea and Japan would also probably be part of that alliance as well, but I would be less concerned about them than the other 3). Fighting off 1 of those countries should be doable. 2 might be a stretch, but if the third lends its support to the remaining allies it could probably be done. All 3 though? Then worldwide democracy is in serious danger. Those countries would all be some of the biggest economic and military powers, who could stop that alliance? I'd be very afraid of the future of democracy if a scenario like that came to pass for WWIII, that kind of alliance would pose a very serious threat of world domination and worldwide authoritarianism.
 

Divine Retribution

No war but class war
North Korea has a very large standing army so I wouldn't totally disregard them. That being said, it's questionable how well-equipped that army is, as well as how many people would just desert it the second they step onto foreign soil due to the atrocious conditions in North Korea. I genuinely have no idea how indoctrinated/brainwashed the average North Korean soldier is, but the fact that many of them chose to brave a literal minefield patrolled by death squads to defect to South Korea tells me that they're probably not all that loyal to their crazy dictator.

I don't think a three-way alliance between the U.S., Russia, and China is all that likely in the near future, even under a Republican regime. Republicans universally despise anything they think even remotely resembles communism (and a whole bunch of stuff that has literally nothing to do with communism but Tucker Carlson said it does so it's bad), so major Republican support for Russia and China is unlikely on that basis alone.

That being said, if the other two join forces and start invading nearby countries, American non-interventionism could still screw us over in the long run. There's a chance that meaningful American military support wouldn't be approved until Russia and China had already reached a sort of critical momentum, where de-escalation would be impossible and an all-out world war would be inevitable.

I think we'd still probably ultimately win, but even if nobody decides to go nuclear (and with Russia, China, and North Korea involved I wouldn't bet a dime against that possibility) the human cost would probably dwarf even WWII. We didn't have ICBMs and MLRS's and thermobaric weapons and all the other horrific devices we've devised to kill each other over the past 80 years in WWII. The best we could expect is a Pyrrhic victory, the worst a nuclear apocalypse.
 
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