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U.S. Politics: The Biggest Trade in WNBA History

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Most of the world hated Hitler.

For like 7 years prior to WWII, this wasn't actually true. Hitler and the Nazi party were very popular among American business moguls and conservative politicians (big shocker, I know), at least until Hitler started his whole world conquest thing and photos of concentration camps started making their way back to the states, but even then America was largely non-interventionist until Pearl Harbor. Americans frankly didn't care until we were attacked, and the same could be said for a lot of other countries as well.

We didn't step in when Hitler invaded Poland unprovoked, or France, or started bombing Britain. We didn't step in when we found out he was wiping out massive swaths of his own people for the sake of some twisted idea of racial purity (an idea very similar to ones held by many Americans at the time). We only stepped in when a) we were attacked without warning by one of Hitler's allies and b) it was quite possible that the entirety of Europe would fall to Germany if we didn't, and why would he have stopped there? And when we finally broke down the German war machine at a scarcely imaginable human cost, did we focus on making sure that the atrocities that occurred during the Holocaust and WWII would never happen again? No, we immediately became paranoid about the Soviet Union and took it as an opportunity to build a buffer against them to protect our own political interests.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is nationalist and fascist rhetoric is very appealing to a not insignificant portion of the population. Hitler is definitely hated by most of the world after the fact, but before the true extent and nature of his crimes was known, he and his dangerous ideology were not hated by most of the world, they were quite popular for such extremist rhetoric.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
For like 7 years prior to WWII, this wasn't actually true. Hitler and the Nazi party were very popular among American business moguls and conservative politicians (big shocker, I know), at least until Hitler started his whole world conquest thing and photos of concentration camps started making their way back to the states, but even then America was largely non-interventionist until Pearl Harbor. Americans frankly didn't care until we were attacked, and the same could be said for a lot of other countries as well.

We didn't step in when Hitler invaded Poland unprovoked, or France, or started bombing Britain. We didn't step in when we found out he was wiping out massive swaths of his own people for the sake of some twisted idea of racial purity (an idea very similar to ones held by many Americans at the time). We only stepped in when a) we were attacked without warning by one of Hitler's allies and b) it was quite possible that the entirety of Europe would fall to Germany if we didn't, and why would he have stopped there? And when we finally broke down the German war machine at a scarcely imaginable human cost, did we focus on making sure that the atrocities that occurred during the Holocaust and WWII would never happen again? No, we immediately became paranoid about the Soviet Union and took it as an opportunity to build a buffer against them to protect our own political interests.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is nationalist and fascist rhetoric is very appealing to a not insignificant portion of the population. Hitler is definitely hated by most of the world after the fact, but before the true extent and nature of his crimes was known, he and his dangerous ideology were not hated by most of the world, they were quite popular for such extremist rhetoric.
What you're saying is correct. It usually does take an inordinate amount of time for the US and the Allies to get militarily involved in major wars. And self-preservation does tend to take precedence. But at some point, countries get involved militarily. That's the thing. And it might happen faster here because of how much the world hates Putin. The last part you mentioned has already happened in this instance and the world knows about it.

Do I WANT a major World War to happen? No. Do I think one is inevitable? Yeah, probably. At the end of the day, regardless of anyone's opinions here (mine included), they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Irrespective of our actions here, it won't affect their choices in this.
 
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Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Is it really a "World War" if it's just Russia vs. the rest of the world? The last two World Wars involved entire alliances of two different countries, so would a faction consisting of just one country really be enough for it to fit the definition of a "World War"? Might just be a semantic issue, but then again a major where we're fighting multiple countries instead of just one could be even more dangerous and deadly and might draw even more countries into the conflict.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Is it really a "World War" if it's just Russia vs. the rest of the world? The last two World Wars involved entire alliances of two different countries, so would a faction consisting of just one country really be enough for it to fit the definition of a "World War"? Might just be a semantic issue, but then again a major where we're fighting multiple countries instead of just one could be even more dangerous and deadly and might draw even more countries into the conflict.

Technically as long as most of the major nations of the world are involved, it's a world war, even if it's literally one country vs every other country. That being said, I don't think Russia is without allies. I think it could potentially have support from China, which would be dangerous, and it could foster relations through China with North Korea.

I also don't think a world war is inevitable, or even likely at this very moment. China's support for Russia is not guaranteed, and Putin has to be aware of the fact that there is absolutely no way a full-blown world war ends favorably for him without at least having China's sizeable military forces at his back, especially after he bungled his little 'blitzkrieg' on Ukraine so hard.

That could change if China does decide to completely throw in with Putin in the near future, but China and the U.S. have mutually dependent economic relationships so they have a strong incentive not to.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Technically as long as most of the major nations of the world are involved, it's a world war, even if it's literally one country vs every other country. That being said, I don't think Russia is without allies. I think it could potentially have support from China, which would be dangerous, and it could foster relations through China with North Korea.

I also don't think a world war is inevitable, or even likely at this very moment. China's support for Russia is not guaranteed, and Putin has to be aware of the fact that there is absolutely no way a full-blown world war ends favorably for him without at least having China's sizeable military forces at his back, especially after he bungled his little 'blitzkrieg' on Ukraine so hard.

That could change if China does decide to completely throw in with Putin in the near future, but China and the U.S. have mutually dependent economic relationships so they have a strong incentive not to.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. In practice a one country vs every other country would probably never happen, or at the very least that one country would have to be a superpower that feels they're militarily and/or economically dominant enough to be able to take on everyone else themselves (the U.S. could be that kind of country, but I don't think the stars are going to align for that to happen anytime soon). If the feeling is that Russia is alone in this, less countries around the world will feel a need to take up the fight anyway since they're not handling this competently and letting the local Eastern European countries fight off the Russians seems to be sufficient.

As far as Russia potentially gaining allies, as I've said a couple of times I'm most afraid of a Republican-controlled U.S. siding with Russia and China (North Korea and Japan would also probably be part of that alliance as well, but I would be less concerned about them than the other 3). Fighting off 1 of those countries should be doable. 2 might be a stretch, but if the third lends its support to the remaining allies it could probably be done. All 3 though? Then worldwide democracy is in serious danger. Those countries would all be some of the biggest economic and military powers, who could stop that alliance? I'd be very afraid of the future of democracy if a scenario like that came to pass for WWIII, that kind of alliance would pose a very serious threat of world domination and worldwide authoritarianism.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
North Korea has a very large standing army so I wouldn't totally disregard them. That being said, it's questionable how well-equipped that army is, as well as how many people would just desert it the second they step onto foreign soil due to the atrocious conditions in North Korea. I genuinely have no idea how indoctrinated/brainwashed the average North Korean soldier is, but the fact that many of them chose to brave a literal minefield patrolled by death squads to defect to South Korea tells me that they're probably not all that loyal to their crazy dictator.

I don't think a three-way alliance between the U.S., Russia, and China is all that likely in the near future, even under a Republican regime. Republicans universally despise anything they think even remotely resembles communism (and a whole bunch of stuff that has literally nothing to do with communism but Tucker Carlson said it does so it's bad), so major Republican support for Russia and China is unlikely on that basis alone.

That being said, if the other two join forces and start invading nearby countries, American non-interventionism could still screw us over in the long run. There's a chance that meaningful American military support wouldn't be approved until Russia and China had already reached a sort of critical momentum, where de-escalation would be impossible and an all-out world war would be inevitable.

I think we'd still probably ultimately win, but even if nobody decides to go nuclear (and with Russia, China, and North Korea involved I wouldn't bet a dime against that possibility) the human cost would probably dwarf even WWII. We didn't have ICBMs and MLRS's and thermobaric weapons and all the other horrific devices we've devised to kill each other over the past 80 years in WWII. The best we could expect is a Pyrrhic victory, the worst a nuclear apocalypse.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
North Korea has a very large standing army so I wouldn't totally disregard them. That being said, it's questionable how well-equipped that army is, as well as how many people would just desert it the second they step onto foreign soil due to the atrocious conditions in North Korea. I genuinely have no idea how indoctrinated/brainwashed the average North Korean soldier is, but the fact that many of them chose to brave a literal minefield patrolled by death squads to defect to South Korea tells me that they're probably not all that loyal to their crazy dictator.

Oh no, I'm not saying North Korea isn't a threat, just that the other three dwarfs its threat. NK has some weapons, but it doesn't have a superpower level military or economy to the point where it would stand a large chance of conquering nearby countries (of course their only mainland neighbors are South Korea and China which limits their path to expansion, but even then I don't think they're quite equipped to invade other countries in the same way as Germany or Russia was). North Korea is far less likely to win an "us vs. the world" sort of world war than the other 3.

I don't think a three-way alliance between the U.S., Russia, and China is all that likely in the near future, even under a Republican regime. Republicans universally despise anything they think even remotely resembles communism (and a whole bunch of stuff that has literally nothing to do with communism but Tucker Carlson said it does so it's bad), so major Republican support for Russia and China is unlikely on that basis alone.

Some Republicans have disturbingly been coming out in support of Putin and Russia, more than just Trump, I don't put anything past them as the only thing they truly seem to care about is money and power. They opposed communism in the Cold War because they didn't want Marxist philosophy putting ideas of fairer compensation and worker power in people's heads, but times have changed. Russia is no longer communist (and really the countries we identify as "communist" in the present day have more in common with Hitler than Marx), and Republican policy isn't really resonating with U.S. citizens so they're turning to fascism to retain control. Russia, China, and NK are closer to what the Republicans aspire to be, so I can easily see them siding with that faction should they gain power.
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO
Since there is a lot of disinformation about Ukraine, I think it might be better to clear some things up:
*Primary Russian target remains Eastern Ukraine and Odessa. Most of the actual war is happening there, because most of the Ukrainian troops are situated there, specifically the Azov guys. Russia's primary goal is to take the Black Sea ports and establish a land corridor to Transnistria.

*Secondary Russian target, Kiev, is being surrounded by all sides, but Russia's large convoys have not arrived yet. The current Russian troops situated are largely exploratory troops, which is why there is the illusion of Ukraine winning (yes, Russia is taking insane casualties, but remember, Russian troops' lives literally don't matter). This is another traditional Russian tactic learned from the Turkic peoples and Mongols, as it allows for tactical victory by increasing the casualties from the opposing side at the cost of your own cannon fodder. It worked in the previous Crimean War in the 19th century, it worked in WWII, and it will likely work here.

*While the official position of Russia is to install a pro-Russian regime in Ukraine, most likely outcome is really full annexation at this point. Without permanent Russian presence in Odessa (and I don't mean militarily, I mean demographic change), Russia cannot keep its presence in the Black Sea otherwise, which is absolutely vital for Russia to remain as a global hegemon.

*Russia will not bother with urban warfare, once they have strengthened their positions in the east and in the south, they will move to flattening cities, Chechnya-style. It is a tried and true Russia method of culling the insurgency, and since they are destroying historical buildings (historical RUSSIAN buildings in Ukraine, that is), that is the most likely outcome.

*If somehow Ukraine wins militarily, which is very unlikely, their first objective would be to ethnically cleanse Ukraine of its non-ethnic Ukrainian members, starting from ethnic Russians, then slowly moving on to all the other minorities, Yugoslav Wars-style. This is because the primary fighting force in Ukraine remains the Azov Battalion (since the actual army is busy defending the capital and civilians), and their international fascistic and Islamist allies. So, Zelensky, being Jewish, is kind of f*cked either way.

*The overall war is expected to last a few months, rather than a few weeks, but Ukraine will almost certainly fall by this year, and Russians will move to next target, which will likely be Georgia or Idlib, though that will likely take a few years since Russian economy will be in life support, kept alive by the Chinese. That is saying nothing on the brain drain that will happen in Russia due to internal repression.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally
I didn't post this before since I didn't know, but Biden has also declared Colombia a Major non-NATO ally. Biden previously named Qatar as a MNNA a month ago.

Next MNNA is expected to be UAE, though due to the invasion of Ukraine, Sweden and Finland apparently want MNNA status. US will not give them that, obviously, and instead will force them into NATO membership, just like they did with Georgia, Ukraine, and, to lesser extent, Moldova.

This has been a couple of good weeks for arms manufacturing side of US military expansionism, because neo-cons were proven right, which is a relative rarity.

On the whole NATO thing, it is likely Russia will force Serbia to invade Serbian parts of Bosnia and Kosovo, but how successful that will be depends on how the EU and UK can sufficiently bribe Serbia to turn away from Russia. If such a thing happens, US will likely seriously intervene, as Bosnia is the next prospective NATO member in the pipeline.

Edit 2:
Stoltenberg made an unconfirmed but huge personal claim about Russian strikes on NATO supplies violating Article 5. This claim is obviously farcical, since Stoltenberg will soon leave his position to become Norges Bank's governor (Central Bank of Norway, that is), but if it becomes true (and it will not), we are going to see a limited thermonuclear war (though that will likely happen in our lifetimes anyway). Oh joy.
 
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Litleonid

Well-Known Member
It absolutely disgusts me that there really isn't much hope for Ukraine and their freedom unless the west intervened significantly, though that would result in the true escalation to WWIII. There's been talks to de-escalate, but Putin is not going into these talks with them in good faith. He is beyond reason. In all his greed and delusions, he will not settle for anything short of Ukraine's surrender and them cutting all ties with the west. He truly is a disgusting excuse for a human being. That man will not stop until the Soviet Union and then some is re-established.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I feel a bit sad for the average Russian citizen and soldiers. None of them wanted this war and the military officials lied to the soldiers and told them that they were going on a “drill” and they can’t really quit because of legal consequences. This is all Putin’s selfish desires. The Russians were perfectly happy letting the Ukraine have their own identity and no interest in reclaiming the land. It sort of like Taiwan and China’s relationship where China wants to reclaim Taiwan and say that the Taiwanese citizens want to be a part of China when that isn’t remotely true.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
I feel a bit sad for the average Russian citizen and soldiers. None of them wanted this war and the military officials lied to the soldiers and told them that they were going on a “drill” and they can’t really quit because of legal consequences. This is all Putin’s selfish desires. The Russians were perfectly happy letting the Ukraine have their own identity and no interest in reclaiming the land. It sort of like Taiwan and China’s relationship where China wants to reclaim Taiwan and say that the Taiwanese citizens want to be a part of China when that isn’t remotely true.
And if Putin manages to take Ukraine (and despite the war of attrition going on, it looks likely that this will happen at some point), China will probably make a bid for Taiwan before long. The difference being that China can put out a standing army that dwarfs Russia's army (I think someone mentioned a few years back that if they went all-out, China could potentially have a standing army of about 200 million, far more than any one military in the world could muster).

A side effect of all of this is that gas prices are going way up. In fact, gas prices are so high that Tom Brady came out of retirement.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
If anything I think this deters China only because of the mess it made and how much it would cost. If the demographics and optics change in a decade or so maybe, but with Taiwan you actively have to engage with the American military.

Plus there are secondary reasons for the oil cost, especially with the KSA mad he isn’t getting special treatment anymore that lets him murder people on US soil. Though this is letting us work out deals with Iran and Venezuela that are favorable to both sides, which will alleviate most short term issues.
 

SoHowAreYou

Well-Known Member
China is not served by an invasion of Taiwan. One it would crash the world economy, the US would intervene, because unlike Ukraine we have an alliance with them, and China may be able to hand 200 million rifles out to barely trained conscripts, but I would love to see the PLAN transport even 1% of that to Taiwan. In the end Taiwan is a fortress, and if China's big military partner Russia can't manage the logistics of an invasion 60 miles from friendly borders, how is China going to launch a maritime invasion?
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
China isn’t really taking sides right now because they are afraid of retaliation from the US. North Korea I don’t think are getting involved for pretty much the same reason and they also don’t have anything to gain from the war. Putin screwed up big time and he definitely won’t be re-elected. The Russian citizens seem to be really upset that he made their nation look so bad now after two decades of trying to rebuild diplomatic relations and creating a more positive image than before.
 

masdog

What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
China will probably make a bid for Taiwan before long. The difference being that China can put out a standing army that dwarfs Russia's army (I think someone mentioned a few years back that if they went all-out, China could potentially have a standing army of about 200 million, far more than any one military in the world could muster).
A large standing army means nothing when you don’t have the sealift capacity to get them across the Taiwan Straight and onto the beaches and keep them supplied. A military conquest of Taiwan would require a massive air campaign followed by a Normandy-scale operation across a narrow body of water. The casualties from that operation would be so massive that I don’t think China would risk it. Everyone would also see it coming and would have time to prepare.

Another thing to consider is that Taiwan is the leading producer of semiconductors. A good chunk of the microchip manufacturing that the global economy relies on, including China, are in Taiwan. Any military operation against Taiwan would result in these going offline, possibly permanently, and significantly hampering China’s technical capabilities. This is above and beyond any sanctions.

If China makes a move on Taiwan, it won’t be a direct military operation. It will be through subverting the government of Taiwan.
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
Well, looks like the Ukraine and Russia are getting into peace talks again today, though you know it won't go anywhere with Putin's ridiculous demands.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Well, looks like the Ukraine and Russia are getting into peace talks again today, though you know it won't go anywhere with Putin's ridiculous demands.
Putin is the main problem and everyone knows it. Why is he so obsessed with the Ukraine when Boris Yeltsin and Dmitry Medvedev had shown no interest in getting it back after the Soviet collapse? He’s fighting a losing war where no one is willing to help him and it seems like the Russian army is starting to refuse to continue the war. I am so glad Trump is no longer in the White House because things would have been 10x worse with some secret agreement between him and Putin in action.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Well, looks like the Ukraine and Russia are getting into peace talks again today, though you know it won't go anywhere with Putin's ridiculous demands.
Putin: Please lose and let me punish you all for all this.
Zelenskyy: Wh-?! No.
Putin: *sigh* Fine then. Punishment it is. *turns around and makes a call* U-um, China? I need help. I can't deal with this comedian alo-
China: lol no.
 

SoHowAreYou

Well-Known Member
What are you saying? I'm sure that China would love to give Russia aid, that will go towards financing [insert stereotypical Russian name here]'s life threatening yacht addiction. No but seriously China may help Russia, but oh boy, the price they will extract will be brutal.
 
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