Ubers Thread

[Caluminousdugtrio]

I never denied that. But tell me... why exactly should the fine line between "a Pokémon weak enough to be OU" and "a Pokémon strong enough to be Über" be drawn between Terrakion (probably the best OU Pokémon currently) and Manaphy (probably the worst current Über)? Do you not think that this line is drawn at a completely arbitrary point?

Übers is a banlist consisting of the Pokémon that are considered to be too powerful for the OU metagame, and thus causing imbalance and overcentralization in it, but if the OU metagame can be balanced after only Arceus is banned from it (and as someone who is extremely experienced with the Übers metagame, I can tell you that that would indeed be the case), then why should the Übers tier consist of any Pokémon besides Arceus? The fine line between "a Pokémon weak enough to be OU" and "a Pokémon strong enough to be Über" should be drawn between the Pokémon that are capable of being balanced in a certain metagame, and a Pokémon which cannot be balanced in any metagame.

Read this post, which explains in detail exactly what I am getting at.



No one ever denied that Reshiram, Dialga, Mewtwo, and Soul Dew Latias and Latios would be overpowered and overcentralizing if they, and they alone were to be moved to the current OU metagame. But just because the Pokémon that are currently Über would be overpowered and overcentralizing if just one, or even a few of them were to be moved to OU, does not mean that any of them would be overpowered or overcentralizing if all of them except for Arceus were to be moved to OU at once, since all of them existing in the same metagame creates a situation such that no particular Pokémon would be significantly more powerful or dominant than most of the other commonly-used Pokémon in the metagame. Once again, read this post to see exactly what I am talking about here.

Basically, imagine that the OU metagame begins with no initial banlist, and then, through suspect testing, things get banned from it over time as they prove themselves to be broken. At the very first instant, with as few things banned as possible when the OU metagame reaches a state in which it is balanced, then suspecting testing and subsequent banning should stop. I believe that an OU metagame that begins with no initial banlist would reach said state of balance after only Arceus is suspect tested and subsequently banned from it.



"If you have a problem with their decisions, then get over there and become good enough to actually make them. It's not exactly hard to get people to listen to you if you make valid points and support them." does not make any sense. There is no causal relationship whatsoever between being good/having valid and supported points and being able to make decisions and be listened to on Smogon, as evident from the fact that, despite possessing a level of skill and knowledge about the Übers metagame far exceeding that of even those who are widely considered to be the best Übers battlers on Smogon, given that I have never lost to Hugendugen or Furai (who are widely regarded to be the joint best Übers battler on Smogon and the runner-up for that title respectively in 2012), and have also reached #1 on eighteen different Generation V Übers ladders across six different servers between Pokémon Online and Pokémon Showdown! (I did not take a screenshot of three of those ladder peaks), all I have ever been met with by the Smogon community is blindness to the truth, having my application for the Smogon Ubers Council disrespectfully deleted by an Administrator for no good reason at all, and being unable to vote even once in all four of the Übers suspect tests so far, despite having gained voting requirements for all of them (well, I actually did vote for the Moody Clause test, but Furai deleted my vote after he later found out who I was).

And judging by the fact that Smogon is a community whose moderators and Administrators are capable of kicking and banning people from their forums, IRC channels and online Pokémon battling simulator servers, as well as deleting people's posts and changing their avatars and signatures while taking away their ability to edit them back for absolutely no reason at all, I would not want to give them any of the wisdom and thus-far secret knowledge about Pokémon that serve as the basis of the Greatness of my Pokémon Mastery anyway.

Um, guys, this person here is ands SASHA the Master are probably two of the greatest Uber players I've ever seen...

Lets not get into some heated arguments here. This thread is meant for exchanging strategies and sets, not bashing each other. Everyone has their own opinions.

 

[Ultimate Champion]

Well said indeed.

Exactly...this is what I meant
However I need to test this but I don't have time for that now at all
Also having espeon AND deoxys Iin the same team is not a good idea...because already while using cloyster (which is considered half bulky) I find trouble with the team's capability of stalling my opp till the right moment...so having three weak pokemon defensively would be too much
However Groudon can play his role of setting a stealth rock very well...since I already have a filling move (rock polish) if I have nothing to do....happens very often against thunder of a kyogre lead hence espeon will play instead of cloyster...our moves will be way more risky but we may really get a new advantage
Still I can't say anything untill I test which means after like one month from now

Groudon will remain in the team anyway as a Pokémon to remove Sandstorm and Hail is necessary for SmashPass, and sacrificing Groudon against opposing Kyogre in order to allow Smeargle to Shell Smash against Kyogre in the Sun (and thus creating a situation in which Smeargle does not need to use Spore and risk the opponent sending out a Lum Berry Arceus on that turn) is just way too big of an advantage to pass up

 

[OceanicLanturn]

Speaking of which, can anyone tell me how viable Wobbufapfet is in Ubers? Shadow Tag is great and all, but it is BL, not enough to be OU. I've been wondering how good Wobbufet will do in Ubers. Can someone tell meh?

 

[SASHA the master]

Well said indeed.



Groudon will remain in the team anyway as a Pokémon to remove Sandstorm and Hail is necessary for SmashPass, and sacrificing Groudon against opposing Kyogre in order to allow Smeargle to Shell Smash against Kyogre in the Sun (and thus creating a situation in which Smeargle does not need to use Spore and risk the opponent sending out a Lum Berry Arceus on that turn) is just way too big of an advantage to pass up

Ofc we can't let go of Groudon lol. .I never said so because it would be dumb...I just said we can set sr using groudon easily if we replace cloyster with espeon
And this sacrifice is amazing imo the best thing is that it's very surprising. ..this one can't be predicted . There is no way of letting Groudon go

 

[Ultimate Champion]

I never said you said we should get rid of Groudon, just that putting both Espeon and Deoxys-S in the team doesn't mean we remove Groudon (which I thought you assumed I meant as you were defending Groudon's merits in your previous post). Sorry for the misunderstanding...

Speaking of which, can anyone tell me how viable Wobbufapfet is in Ubers? Shadow Tag is great and all, but it is BL, not enough to be OU. I've been wondering how good Wobbufet will do in Ubers. Can someone tell meh?

Wobbuffet has a great niche in Übers by being able to use Shadow Tag + Encore to give set-up sweepers a much easier time setting up. It is definitely worth using, especially in teams that depend heavily on the use of a set-up sweeper as a win condition.

 

[SASHA the master]

I never said you said we should get rid of Groudon, just that putting both Espeon and Deoxys-S in the team doesn't mean we remove Groudon (which I thought you assumed I meant as you were defending Groudon's merits in your previous post). Sorry for the misunderstanding...



Wobbuffet has a great niche in Übers by being able to use Shadow Tag + Encore to give set-up sweepers a much easier time setting up. It is definitely worth using, especially in teams that depend heavily on the use of a set-up sweeper as a win condition.

Wobbuffet has actually impressed me with how benefitly he can do in übers
I have personally battled an awesome set of wobbuffet with custap berry. ..if the plan wirks well it can destroy an entire arceus with counter or mirror coat and then use it's custap berry against the next pokemon to use destiny bond...this way it probably ruins the opps team

 

[Caluminousdugtrio]

Wobbufet? It's actually quite annoying in Ubers imo.

It can come in after a Pokemon has died, and can take out at lest one Poke with Countercoat, and can possibly take out another with Destiny Bond + Custap Berry

 

[Ultimate Champion]

What is your favorite moveset for Kyogre? Mine is:

Leviathan (Kyogre) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout

Choice Specs Kyogre is a Pokémon I have used quite extensively across numerous (albeit, overall far from excellent) teams throughout my time playing Generation V Übers, as I find myself very much drawn towards its sheer, destructive power. While pretty much all other Kyogre find themselves walled to various extents by Latias, Arceus-Grass, Ferrothorn, specially defensive Giratina-A, and Palkia assuming its field isn't too cluttered by entry hazards, Choice Specs Kyogre can blast straight through all of such Pokémon, given proper prediction.

Also, I know that the following moveset isn't usable anymore, but I'll post it anyway as I recall having a lot of fun using it during the Übers OHKO Clause test on Pokémon Showdown! (and as such, if not for the existence of the OHKO Clause, this would likely be my number one favorite and commonly-used Kyogre moveset):

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Scald
- Sheer Cold
- Sleep Talk

Despite the unreliability of Sheer Cold due to its mere 30% accuracy, I personally believe that, in a metagame without the OHKO Clause, this would easily be the overall best Kyogre moveset, as in addition to providing excellent defensive synergy for its own team thanks to its combination of physical and special bulk (which allows it to serve as a decent temporary switch-in to Pokémon such as Leftovers Ho-Oh) as well as being a weather summoner with great staying power thanks to its aforementioned bulk combined with recovery (unlike Choice Scarf and Choice Specs Kyogre), this moveset is, in some ways, simultaneously even more dangerous than Kyogre's two main flagship offensive sets, especially against stall teams. This is not only because Pokémon such as Latias and specially-defensive Giratina-A are extremely common, but a huge number of teams used in Übers consist of even four or five Pokémon resistant to Water, making Choice Scarf and even Choice Specs Kyogre actually less practical and viable as offensive Pokémon than many people make them out to be, and the fact that offensive Kyogre almost always carry a Choice item, combined with the fact that its most powerful move decreases in power with its HP also creates a risk of having Kyogre locked into a pitifully weak move, something that people often do not speak of. But with Sheer Cold, Kyogre instantly gains a 30% chance of eliminating the opponent's Latias, Arceus-Grass, Ferrothorn or specially-defensive Giratina-A on the switch, and against the last two, Kyogre can even afford to stay in on the next turn and fire a second Sheer Cold, resulting in a 51% chance of knocking out the opponent's Kyogre check, making it a deadly wall-breaker, all while being incredibly bulky! Using Sheer Cold twice against the opponent's Ferrothorn (with the first use of this move being on the turn when Ferrothorn switches in), and therefore gaining a 51% chance of instantly eliminating it is just awesome, and it is especially satisfying when the opponent's Ferrothorn gets destroyed in this way before it gets the chance to set up any annoying Stealth Rock, Spikes or Leech Seed.

 

[Caluminousdugtrio]

Sheer Cold...?
Anyways, I haven't played Ubers long enough to experience the tier without the OHKO Clause
I'm a lot more familiar with the Choice Specs set, but I personally like the Choice Scarf set as it ouspeeds things and with Rain up, its boosted Water Spouts and Surfs already do plenty of damage imo. Sad thing is, Grass Knots severely cripples this giant whale, and with the popularity of the Lati@s twins, Kyogre becomes a lot more easy to play around.

 

[Ultimate Champion]

Yes, Sheer Cold. For a brief period of time late last year, one-hit KO moves were, for the purpose of a suspect test, usable on Pokémon Showdown!'s Uberssuspecttest ladder.

 

[OceanicLanturn]

I've used this rather rare Latias set. It's a really great check to Specs Kyogre.

Latias @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SDef / 136 Spe
Calm Nature
- Light Screen
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Roar

Via this Latias set, it can even switch in into a Specs Kyogre's Ice Beam, which is a 2HKO, Meanwhile, this set outspeeds all non-Scarf versions and set up Light Screen, which halves Ice beam's damage into 25%, which after it roosts off. If the foe is locked into Water Spout, it's even better for Latias, which takes even less damage, and Dragon Pulse away! This set is not the best for physically defensive, so it's better paired off with a more physically defensive wall that can tank dragon and bug moves well. Roar can be used to stack hazard damage and blow away Pokemon trying to set up on it. Roost is for healing btw (you should get a knock on the head if you're into competitive battling and don't know that).

 

[SASHA the master]

I will introduce one exceptional and unique set of a lead Excadrill since I am the only one whom would need it for a precised purpose
Basicallly works as spinner And a hazard setter

Excadrill@salac berry
Trait : mold breaker
EVs:252atk/200s.def/52spd
Adamant nature
-earthquake
-sleep talk
-rapid spin
-stealth rock

So basically this set is for setting rox and not getting spin blocked
I need to take a hit from Arceus while predicting a switch from Deoxys-s after setting rox
This way I can earthquack arceus ghost or Giratina-O on the predict switch then with the raise of speed I can outspeed them aftr taking a hit...normally Arceus is 2HKOed and sometimes 3HKOed which is something I can do...then I have a +1 speed to spin against the next pokemon
Also mold breaker lets me set a stealth rock without fearing any type of magic bouncers
And lets me hit both Giratina-O and the 2 latis neverminding levitate

 

[jireh the provider]

Sheer Cold...?
Anyways, I haven't played Ubers long enough to experience the tier without the OHKO Clause
I'm a lot more familiar with the Choice Specs set, but I personally like the Choice Scarf set as it ouspeeds things and with Rain up, its boosted Water Spouts and Surfs already do plenty of damage imo. Sad thing is, Grass Knots severely cripples this giant whale, and with the popularity of the Lati@s twins, Kyogre becomes a lot more easy to play around.

The bold italic one is the very one set I find too overrated during my early days in Ubers. Yes, it owned my cutest legendary team with this set. Heck, no thanks to said set, I developed a sense of extreme hatred and jealousy to Kyogre in general, with only Arceus topping both Kyogre and Rayquaza for being the Legendaries that I call BOASTFUL BASTARDS in every asset. This is why I had a rather odd perception of winning in Ubers. If I can MURDER Kyogre on the opponent's team, I call that an automatic win for my team even if I will lose in the end of a "hopeless battle" with my "weak" team for a few Jerkass Elitists that I fought in Pokemon Online. I will say it the same to Rayquaza and Arceus if they Replace my said vendetta.

Imagine me owning kyogre with a Manaphy or Celebi. Sounds like only dreaming. Right? For me, I'd rather do that than use the Obvious Palkia, Arceus, and Latias. Maybe Jirachi, my favorite of all the legendaries, can defeat most Arceus Forms one-on-one.

Anyways. Recently, I've been pondering as to how a Mixed set for Reshiram would do: especially with the move Flame charge. I mean, it might work to bluff the Obvious Choice Item. Look, I know he benefits of choiced Items. I'm just not a very good user of it.

Reshiram
item: Life orb
EVs: 252 speed, 126 to both attack Stats.
Nature: something with more speed but minus on Physical defense
Moves:
-Flame Charge
-Dragon Pulse / Outrage
-Earthquake / Earth Power? (does she know this move or not? dunno)
-Hidden Power Ice / Electric / Grass Knot

 

[Divine Retribution]

The bold italic one is the very one set I find too overrated during my early days in Ubers. Yes, it owned my cutest legendary team with this set. Heck, no thanks to said set, I developed a sense of extreme hatred and jealousy to Kyogre in general, with only Arceus topping both Kyogre and Rayquaza for being the Legendaries that I call BOASTFUL BASTARDS in every asset. This is why I had a rather odd perception of winning in Ubers. If I can MURDER Kyogre on the opponent's team, I call that an automatic win for my team even if I will lose in the end of a "hopeless battle" with my "weak" team for a few Jerkass Elitists that I fought in Pokemon Online. I will say it the same to Rayquaza and Arceus if they Replace my said vendetta.

Imagine me owning kyogre with a Manaphy or Celebi. Sounds like only dreaming. Right? For me, I'd rather do that than use the Obvious Palkia, Arceus, and Latias. Maybe Jirachi, my favorite of all the legendaries, can defeat most Arceus Forms one-on-one.

Anyways. Recently, I've been pondering as to how a Mixed set for Reshiram would do: especially with the move Flame charge. I mean, it might work to bluff the Obvious Choice Item. Look, I know he benefits of choiced Items. I'm just not a very good user of it.

Reshiram
item: Life orb
EVs: 252 speed, 126 to both attack Stats.
Nature: something with more speed but minus on Physical defense
Moves:
-Flame Charge
-Dragon Pulse / Outrage
-Earthquake / Earth Power? (does she know this move or not? dunno)
-Hidden Power Ice / Electric / Grass Knot

I sense a lot of futile bitterness here.

Mixed Reshiram is viable, but why? Mixed Kyurem-B is MORE viable, outclassing him in just about every way. As for a special Flame Charge set, that's something I've been experimenting with for a while. It lacks the raw power of SpecsShiram but it has more versatility. Kind of reminds me of my boy Flame Charge Heatran except... Well, different.

 

[UbersSuck20]

I think Prankster Riolu works better in Ubers than in lower tiers. Arceus with ExtremeSpeed and Scizor with Bullet Punch(who is slower anyway) are the only priority users you will encounter, Espeon and Xatu are pretty rare, and Magic Guard users are practically non-existent.

EDIT: Forgot about Giratina-O with Shadow Sneak, but I think standard Giratina-O(252 Atk/252 SpA/4 Spe) is slower than max speed Riolu.

I've used this rather rare Latias set. It's a really great check to Specs Kyogre.

Latias @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SDef / 136 Spe
Calm Nature
- Light Screen
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Roar

Via this Latias set, it can even switch in into a Specs Kyogre's Ice Beam, which is a 2HKO, Meanwhile, this set outspeeds all non-Scarf versions and set up Light Screen, which halves Ice beam's damage into 25%, which after it roosts off. If the foe is locked into Water Spout, it's even better for Latias, which takes even less damage, and Dragon Pulse away! This set is not the best for physically defensive, so it's better paired off with a more physically defensive wall that can tank dragon and bug moves well. Roar can be used to stack hazard damage and blow away Pokemon trying to set up on it. Roost is for healing btw (you should get a knock on the head if you're into competitive battling and don't know that).

Timid Specs Kyogre actually outspeeds Latias and 2HKOes her with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock damage.

 

[OceanicLanturn]

I think Prankster Riolu works better in Ubers than in lower tiers. Arceus with ExtremeSpeed and Scizor with Bullet Punch(who is slower anyway) are the only priority users you will encounter, Espeon and Xatu are pretty rare, and Magic Guard users are practically non-existent.

EDIT: Forgot about Giratina-O with Shadow Sneak, but I think standard Giratina-O(252 Atk/252 SpA/4 Spe) is slower than max speed Riolu.



Timid Specs Kyogre actually outspeeds Latias and 2HKOes her with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock damage.

Timid Specs hit 306 speed while the above mentioned Latias set hits 319 speed, so it's a counter to all variants barred Scarf.

 

[Agonist]

Calm 136 Spe hits 290 Spe.

Anyways. Recently, I've been pondering as to how a Mixed set for Reshiram would do: especially with the move Flame charge. I mean, it might work to bluff the Obvious Choice Item. Look, I know he benefits of choiced Items. I'm just not a very good user of it.

Reshiram
item: Life orb
EVs: 252 speed, 126 to both attack Stats.
Nature: something with more speed but minus on Physical defense
Moves:
-Flame Charge
-Dragon Pulse / Outrage
-Earthquake / Earth Power? (does she know this move or not? dunno)
-Hidden Power Ice / Electric / Grass Knot

This Reshiram set is awful. You're literally taking everything good about Reshiram, and ignoring it. The only reason to bother with mixed Reshiram is to smack Ho-Oh with Stone Edge. There's no reason to bother with Hidden Power, or Earth Power, since Reshiram already gets perfect coverage with just STAB moves.

 

[Ultimate Champion]

Here is the ultimate Flame Charge and mixed Reshiram set:

Fire Dragon (Reshiram) @ Flame Plate
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Blue Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Flame Charge
- Stone Edge

Life Orb is an incredibly bad item for any Flame Charge Reshiram that does not have Roost, since the item's recoil tends to quickly weaken the Vast White Pokémon's health, to the point where it can be easily revenge-killed by priority moves such as the ExtremeSpeed of the ever-so-common Arceus-Normal, especially considering said recoil kicks in even while it is setting up, as well as the fact that Reshiram very often finds itself setting up on Ferrothorn with Flame Charge, and therefore accumulating even more damage due to Iron Barbs. As such, Flame Plate is the item of choice for this Pokémon, as while the boost it provides for the power of Reshiram's Fire-type moves is not as great as that provided by Life Orb, a Sun and Flame Plate-boosted Blue Flare from the fiery dragon still boasts unbelievable power, being able to KO a 4 HP Arceus 68.75% of the time with a single neutral hit.

Although Draco Meteor may seem counterproductive for a set-up sweeper, I still believe it is better than Dragon Pulse on this set, due to its ability to deal a large chunk of damage to Kyogre on the switch, since this Pokémon very often switches into Reshiram. Stone Edge is for Ho-Oh, Flame Charge and the EV spread are self-explanatory, and the justification for the Nature is the same as that of the Reshiram set in this post.

I will introduce one exceptional and unique set of a lead Excadrill since I am the only one whom would need it for a precised purpose
Basicallly works as spinner And a hazard setter

Excadrill@salac berry
Trait : mold breaker
EVs:252atk/200s.def/52spd
Adamant nature
-earthquake
-sleep talk
-rapid spin
-stealth rock

So basically this set is for setting rox and not getting spin blocked
I need to take a hit from Arceus while predicting a switch from Deoxys-s after setting rox
This way I can earthquack arceus ghost or Giratina-O on the predict switch then with the raise of speed I can outspeed them aftr taking a hit...normally Arceus is 2HKOed and sometimes 3HKOed which is something I can do...then I have a +1 speed to spin against the next pokemon
Also mold breaker lets me set a stealth rock without fearing any type of magic bouncers
And lets me hit both Giratina-O and the 2 latis neverminding levitate

Here is my favorite moveset for Excadrill:

Sk8rboy (Excadrill) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

Taken from the Dragon Rush member Iridescent/Hack He Must's famous Elements of the Desert team, this Excadrill, with sand support, is simultaneously an excellent sweeper as well as a great Rapid Spinner which, with the help of Sand Rush and Swords Dance, has a good chance of getting past the great Spin-blockers of the Übers tier. Air Balloon protects this Excadrill from Spikes and Toxic Spikes, allowing it to come in many more times throughout a match, which is crucial for a Rapid Spinner, and also protects this Pokémon from the Earthquake of Gliscor, a Pokémon that is generally quite problematic for sand teams.

 

[OceanicLanturn]

Calm 136 Spe hits 290 Spe.



This Reshiram set is awful. You're literally taking everything good about Reshiram, and ignoring it. The only reason to bother with mixed Reshiram is to smack Ho-Oh with Stone Edge. There's no reason to bother with Hidden Power, or Earth Power, since Reshiram already gets perfect coverage with just STAB moves.

Thought it was Timid. Oh well, timid then, or I screwd up the EVs.

 

[Caluminousdugtrio]

Yeah, Mixed Reshi isn't too great besides the CS + Stone Edge imo.

And I never actually successfully used Excadrill in Ubers. I find it extremely weather-reliant and uh, just too frail.

What do you guys think of the Arceus-Forms? I mean, there are like what, SEVENTEEN DIFFERENT TYPES LOL.
Out of those, only about 2 of those are commonly used. Arceus-Normal (the famed Extremekiller) and Arceus-Ghost(arguably the most versatile)