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Ubers Thread

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UbersSuck20

#FreeGenesect
Starmie sucks in Ubers. It doesn't hit hard enough, has bad bulk for a spinner(by Uber standards), and is outclassed as a spinner by Excadrill and Forretress and as a special water-type attacker by Palkia. TrickSpecs Starmie is not much better, considering that there are many special attackers in Ubers and I don't think Arceus is going to waste time and set up on Starmie, it'll just use ExtremeSpeed for the OHKO.
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
But after a Shell Smash, Cloyster can KO both Formes of Giratina in a single Icicle Spear, as well as Arceus-Ghost in two Icicle Spears, something neither Forretress nor any other Rapid Spinner can possibly hope to do. It is this extremely important advantage which makes Cloyster by far the best Rapid Spinner in the Übers tier in my opinion.
 

UbersSuck20

#FreeGenesect
Turn 1: Your Pokemon attacks!
Cloyster survived thanks to the Focus Sash!
Cloyster used Shell Smash!
Turn 2: You switch to Giratina!
Cloyster used Icicle Spear!
Giratina fainted!
Turn 3: You switch to Arceus-Normal/Ghost/Scizor!
Arceus-Normal used ExtremeSpeed!/Scizor used Bullet Punch!
Cloyster fainted.

And so, Cloyster fails to do its job.

Forretress is actually capable of taking a special hit(especially in rain, though many prefer Ferrothorn) and can predict Giratina/Arceus-Ghost switching in and get out of there with Volt Switch. You can then switch to Soul Dew Latios or any other dragon and kill the spinblocker.
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
Or, you know, you can simply use Rapid Spin on the first turn, or the opponent may immediately switch to their Giratina on the first turn in anticipation of a Rapid Spin on that turn (although this rarely happens for obvious reasons) while you Shell Smash - prediction is something that works both ways, and I never said Cloyster was perfect as a Rapid Spinner - just that it is the best at that role. And realistically, more often than not, the opponent just doesn't even consider switching their Ghost-type Pokémon into Cloyster at all since Rapid Spin is a relatively rare and unexpected move on this Pokémon.
 

Caluminousdugtrio

class on my back
Starmie? I'm actually going to try that. It may help against Groudon and Reshiram, but its pathetic bulk wont allow it to tank. Tricking a Specs/Scarf may be fun though, as Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Forretress, Blissey, Lugia, etc., wont expect it at all.
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
What is your favorite moveset for the Normal Forme of Deoxys? As much as I have never liked using this site, mine would be the one listed on Smogon's analysis of this Pokémon I guess, as I can't seem to think of any other way to differentiate it from the other three Formes of Deoxys. Yeah, I guess there's not much to talk about in regards to Deoxys's Normal Forme due to how overshadowed it is in general, but I feel that we should discuss it anyway, as it is still an Über after all.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
What is your favorite moveset for the Normal Forme of Deoxys? As much as I have never liked using this site, mine would be the one listed on Smogon's analysis of this Pokémon I guess, as I can't seem to think of any other way to differentiate it from the other three Formes of Deoxys. Yeah, I guess there's not much to talk about in regards to Deoxys's Normal Forme due to how overshadowed it is in general, but I feel that we should discuss it anyway, as it is still an Über after all.

I feel like it's only an Uber because it would be broken in OU. There's literally no reason to use it over its Attack forme. The slightly improved bulk is still terrible and you're still not surviving any attacks that Deo-A wouldn't survive (which is like nothing. IIRC he's OHKO'd by Forre's Gyro Ball.)
 

Hack He Must

New Member
Lemme join in here lol. Introduction-wise, since I am new, I am Hack He Must of the Dragon Masters clan. I have reached #1 several times on Pokémon Showdowns! Uber ladder and Lance rocks. I love killing people with Ho-oh and Genesect is a Pokémon I use for all of my teams because it's ****ing amazing. Now you guys know me.

Cloyster pwns badly on offensive teams because because compared to Forretress it has the exact same utility in support (spin, spikes) with larger offensive presence due to Shell Smash and a 125 BP STAB move that beats spin-blockers to hell and back. Except Ghostceus, but it's 2HKOd after a smash. I use the Cloyster set Sasha posted some time ago in this thread for my best team, Droughtfest [the choice of a new generation].

Since we're talking about sand, am I the only one that actually prefers to use the Hippo > Tyranitar? Yes, it's special defense is pathetic for Ubers level, but it has great physical bulk that can be super helpful in sand stall. Hippowdon has saved my *** against physical attackers, and it's combinations of sand/toxic/whirlwind hazards can wear down physical attackers. It definitely doesn't get the utility T-tard has, but I usually pair it with Latias to achieve a Specially Defensive-Physically Defensive bulk.

If Smogon was up, I'd link my old RMT, Elements of the Desert, which was a sand stall team featuring a core of Hippowdon, Giratina and Ferrothorn. I prefer Tyranitar more nowadays because its higher offensive presence, as offensive teams are much better than stall teams in the current metagame.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Lemme join in here lol. Introduction-wise, since I am new, I am Hack He Must of the Dragon Masters clan. I have reached #1 several times on Pokémon Showdowns! Uber ladder and Lance rocks. I love killing people with Ho-oh and Genesect is a Pokémon I use for all of my teams because it's ****ing amazing. Now you guys know me.

Cloyster pwns badly on offensive teams because because compared to Forretress it has the exact same utility in support (spin, spikes) with larger offensive presence due to Shell Smash and a 125 BP STAB move that beats spin-blockers to hell and back. Except Ghostceus, but it's 2HKOd after a smash. I use the Cloyster set Sasha posted some time ago in this thread for my best team, Droughtfest [the choice of a new generation].



If Smogon was up, I'd link my old RMT, Elements of the Desert, which was a sand stall team featuring a core of Hippowdon, Giratina and Ferrothorn. I prefer Tyranitar more nowadays because its higher offensive presence, as offensive teams are much better than stall teams in the current metagame.

I saw that RMT a while ago, nice job. Welcome to our corner of the community.

Is Choice Deo-A viable? If so, would I go with Band or Specs?
 
I saw that RMT a while ago, nice job. Welcome to our corner of the community.

Is Choice Deo-A viable? If so, would I go with Band or Specs?

Well personally I do not like any variant of Deo-A but that is not important. I dont think a Choice Deo-A would do much good. The Focus Sash it usually has is pretty important if it is going to last even for a little while especially with all the Extremekiller Arceus that are around as well as scarf Pokemon (Maybe to a lesser extent . . . Deo-A max speed is 438 but I think some scarfers will still outspeed). Without the Sash those two kinds of threats will probably make quick work of a Deo-A without a sash then they do already. I mean I guess if you Espeed some of those threats can be lessened but I dont know that you can OHKO all of them or any of them without hazards (I really dont want to do calculations x_x . . . ) and locking into Espeed leaves you stuck againsts Giratinas which could become a problem quickly especially if it were Giratina-O (Free sub etc etc)
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
Welcome to this thread, Hack He Must!

Anyway, the main reason why I don't like Choice Band or Choice Specs Deoxys-A in general is because I find little reason to use such items on it over Life Orb, considering how effective a mixed attacker Deoxys-A is, as well as the fact that the subtraction to Deoxys-A's bulk by Life Orb recoil hardly matters anyway as this Pokémon faints in one hit by just about any attack.

In any case, here is my favorite moveset for Deoxys-A:

386-attack.gif


Discipline (Deoxys-A) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Psycho Boost
- Shadow Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Superpower

Just an offensive Stealth Rock lead with maximized offensive coverage. The EVs maximize its Special Attack, allow it to outrun Timid Mewtwo with max. Speed, and everything else is thrown into its Attack stat. I used this briefly in my Extreme BattleMasters team before I replaced it with Dialga, as my team desperately needed a Pokémon immune to Toxic in order to somewhat deal with Lugia.
 

Hack He Must

New Member
I like that set too, but I prefer using Spikes as well. Probably over Shadow Ball, but I have never really made a good team with it. I know a Showdown! player known as Warawanai uses it with moderate success, though (the reason I say it's moderate despite him being upfront on the ladder is because I have infact never lost to him).

Now I have an interesting topic to bring up- I started thinking for a while yesterday, it was about weather in Ubers. Almost all teams utilize a a weather (or even two) on their teams- and while weatherless teams are good (Skyless World made by my fellow clan-member Bossness is excellent) I noticed a strange pattern. This is large generalization but:

Sand teams have and advantage against sun teams.
Sun teams have an advantage over rain (!!!) teams.
Rain teams have an advantage over sand teams.

I have found this to be a bit correct to be honest, after countless of battles with all team archetypes. Of course this is generalization, I could still beat a less experienced player using a sun team with my rain team. Anyway, I might have to explain how I came to my conclusion.

Sand teams have and advantage against sun teams:
This one is quite straightforward- Hippowdon and Tyranitar a both decent answers to the most threatening sun-based Pokémon Ho-oh, and Hippowdon also checks Groudon and sets Stealth Rock. Sun offense (which I consider the only viable sun-team archetype) usually use Espeon with Focus Sash or Cloyster using the same item. Sand Stream breaks the possibility of living any hit, which makes getting the rocks up much easier. Also, concerning Arceus-Formes used on sun- the three best in my opinion being Rock, Water and Fighting, you can clearly see and advantage here. The Arceus-Figthing I am talking about is using the moves Judgment, Toxic, Recover and Stone Edge (its best overall set) and can easily send Ho-oh flying, toxic Arceus-Ghost, and destroy E killer- common Pokémon on sun offense. Arceus-Water and especially Arceus-Rock are also big roadblocks for sun teams as both utilize a Calm Mind set that cannot be walled by Ho-oh in the sand (in Arceus-Rocks case, Ho-oh won't ever have the chance), meaning Groudon has to switch on Arceus-Water, taking damage before Ho-oh can beat it. If a sand team uses Arceus-Grass, then the sun team might win, but as I said Arceus-Grass is incredibly overrated and is very liable to fall to rising stars of BW2 Ubers such as Ho-oh, Genesect, Kyurem-W and Latias, making it worse than in BW1.

Sun teams have an advantage over rain teams:
This is a bit vague to be honest, but Ho-oh is a big reason why this can be true. Life Orb Ho-oh completely tears rain stall apart, Specs-Kyurem white is also great against these teams. Not to mention Palkia. The sun which can be set up in Kyogre's face can sometimes provide a very easy set-up for Arceus Extremekiller or Calm Minding Arceus-Ghost. I also consider rain stall being much better than rain offense, because as strange as it sounds, I'd rather use sun offense than rain offense as it is much better. Some rain Pokémon are good, some are really bad against sun to be honest. Here is a list of common rain mons and how they fare.

Good:
Omastar- Doesn't mind a Groudon switching in to remove the weather, unlike Kabutops. Omastar has Shell Smash and attacks from the special side so it can actually come in on Earthquake-less Ho-oh.
Dialga- is hard to Magic Bounce. But an Earth Plate Groudon can wreck it before it can move.
Kingdra- same as Omastar to begin with. Threatens Dragons walling its Water-STAB.
Excadrill- Even though it has Mold Breaker SR, it is slow and can be KOed by Ho-oh. If it gets up rocks it's actually decent.

Bad:
Kabutops- Unless the weather war is won, it can't do much because Groudon can switch in on it relatively easy. Sun teams won't mind the surprise Rapid Spin as much, because they are mainly focusing to keep Stealth Rock off their own side of the field, rather than spikes-stacking.
Ferrothorn- OMG it is balls vs sun. A liability, because Ho-oh gets in for absolutely nothing. Forry sets up on it, Xatu stone walls it, these are common mons on sun.
Tentacruel- if it gets a layer of toxic spikes maybe. But it has trouble with Latias, fast Groudon, and Ho-oh.

Rain teams have an advantage over sand teams:
I think this might be true because a combo of Deoxys-S+specs Kyogre+Genesect can really do work here. First turn, Deoxys-S vs TTar- Ttar must crunch as Deoxys gets rocks. Then Kyogre comes in. Nothing enjoys the water spout, Giratina is almost 2HKOed, and Latias is a liability because Genesect. It is quite obvious why rain works well vs sand, considering specsOgre is incredibly dangerous when the weather never decreases its STAB move's power.

Now these are just some thoughts, and obviously you can alter different weather archetypes to combat what can beat you. What are you guys thoughts?
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
Upon reading that post of yours, I can't help but wonder whether or not you have the power to read my mind, Hack He Must... I have actually long ago thought about almost the exact idea that you just described in detail...

But actually, in my mind, it's a bit more specific. The way I see it, Sun offense/balance (come on, you know Sun balance is viable too :) ) beats rain stall, rain stall beats sand stall, and sand teams regardless of its archetype beats Sun offense/balance as long as it has Arceus-Rock or Arceus-Water (Arceus-Grass variants are, I would say, actually at a disadvantage against Sun offense/balance though), but I personally wouldn't generalize further than that. As you mentioned yourself, rain stall loses to Sun offense/balance largely because of the former's passivity combined with the fact that it often has no way of defending against a Life Orb Ho-Oh at all, but I don't think the situation is that bad for more offensive rain teams, since they can actually offensively threaten Sun offense and balance teams (much moreso the former from my experience) in return. Rain stall beats sand stall from my experience not just because of what you mentioned, but also because a battle between a rain stall team and a sand stall team inevitably comes down to a stall war, in which the former has one extremely huge advantage over the latter: Rain stall teams typically have an incredibly useful Toxic Spikes user in Tentacruel, whereas not only do sand stall teams tend not to utilize this entry hazard, but they more often than not do not even have a Pokémon to absorb Toxic Spikes. And when Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Arceus-Rock/Water and other Pokémon that don't have a way to cure their status get poisoned, the user of the sand stall team is placed at a significant disadvantage against rain stall. And additionally, the dangerous thing about Toxic Spikes is that as long as a Pokémon has no way to cure its poison, all it has to do is step on the field once with Toxic Spikes up, and that entry hazard would have done its job, even if it does get removed from the field later on in the match. And you also perfectly summed up why sand teams with Arceus-Rock or Arceus-Water (or just about any team with them, though they are by far most common in sand teams) beat Sun offense/balance.

Something else I would like to mention in regards to this topic is that from my experience, rain offense is generally at an incredible disadvantage against rain stall, mainly due to how much the offensive abusers of rain typically struggle against Ferrothorn, Dialga, Giratina and Latias.
 

UbersSuck20

#FreeGenesect
Welcome to this thread, Hack He Must!

Anyway, the main reason why I don't like Choice Band or Choice Specs Deoxys-A in general is because I find little reason to use such items on it over Life Orb, considering how effective a mixed attacker Deoxys-A is, as well as the fact that the subtraction to Deoxys-A's bulk by Life Orb recoil hardly matters anyway as this Pokémon faints in one hit by just about any attack.

In any case, here is my favorite moveset for Deoxys-A:

386-attack.gif


Discipline (Deoxys-A) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Psycho Boost
- Shadow Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Superpower

Just an offensive Stealth Rock lead with maximized offensive coverage. The EVs maximize its Special Attack, allow it to outrun Timid Mewtwo with max. Speed, and everything else is thrown into its Attack stat. I used this briefly in my Extreme BattleMasters team before I replaced it with Dialga, as my team desperately needed a Pokémon immune to Toxic in order to somewhat deal with Lugia.

I like the Life Orb set:

Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Thunder
- Ice Beam / ExtremeSpeed
- Superpower

With this set Deoxys-A is sure to destroy. ExtremeSpeed is a replacement for Ice Beam if you really need to revenge kill weakened Arceus and Rayquaza.

Has anyone tried Liepard in Ubers?
 

Hack He Must

New Member
Yes, but as its strategy relies on too much chance to perform, one can never win consistently with it, thus making it a bad choice for a serious team.
 

Caluminousdugtrio

class on my back
Lemme join in here lol. Introduction-wise, since I am new, I am Hack He Must of the Dragon Masters clan. I have reached #1 several times on Pokémon Showdowns! Uber ladder and Lance rocks. I love killing people with Ho-oh and Genesect is a Pokémon I use for all of my teams because it's ****ing amazing. Now you guys know me.

Cloyster pwns badly on offensive teams because because compared to Forretress it has the exact same utility in support (spin, spikes) with larger offensive presence due to Shell Smash and a 125 BP STAB move that beats spin-blockers to hell and back. Except Ghostceus, but it's 2HKOd after a smash. I use the Cloyster set Sasha posted some time ago in this thread for my best team, Droughtfest [the choice of a new generation].



If Smogon was up, I'd link my old RMT, Elements of the Desert, which was a sand stall team featuring a core of Hippowdon, Giratina and Ferrothorn. I prefer Tyranitar more nowadays because its higher offensive presence, as offensive teams are much better than stall teams in the current metagame.


*bows* Welcome ;)

I really have nothing to say to the team advantages. I just can't lol.

Btw, has anyone tried Sun Stall?
 

Ultimate Champion

The Great Pokémon Master
I have, but I don't think it is that viable since the deadliest wall-breakers in the tier happen to be most dangerous under harsh sunlight, making it rather impractical to use a team that attempts to stall under this weather condition in my opinion.
 
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