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UK General Election and Politics 2015 - The time has come for change!

Scammel

Well-Known Member
I used to feel that Gordon Brown was a very good Prime Minister when he was in No.10, until I found out just exactly how much more of the deficit he's brought down on us and how bad of a Chancellor of the Exchequer he was under Blair. I think the problem with Labour today is that they're becoming too divided between 'New Labour' (Which is just really liberalism) and 'Old Labour' before Tony Blair came into power which was what worked. The other problems are Ed the 'Unelectable PM' and that we're living in the aftermath of two previously poor Labour PMs. I think with a strong leader like David Miliband though, if he manages to bring the party together as one and outlines his vision for Labour whether New or Old, then Labour can become an effective party again.

In fairness to Brown, I gather that he didn't do much that the Tories or other finance ministers across the globe didn't/wouldn't also do, and almost single-handedly prevented a much worse European fall-out after the crash with his whistle-stop world tour. I can thoroughly recommend 'The End of the Party' by Andrew Rawnsley - it's a hefty book but you probably won't find a better account of the Labour years.
 
I used to feel that Gordon Brown was a very good Prime Minister when he was in No.10, until I found out just exactly how much more of the deficit he's brought down on us and how bad of a Chancellor of the Exchequer he was under Blair. I think the problem with Labour today is that they're becoming too divided between 'New Labour' (Which is just really liberalism) and 'Old Labour' before Tony Blair came into power which was what worked. The other problems are Ed the 'Unelectable PM' and that we're living in the aftermath of two previously poor Labour PMs. I think with a strong leader like David Miliband though, if he manages to bring the party together as one and outlines his vision for Labour whether New or Old, then Labour can become an effective party again.

I think my problem with Alex Salmond is just that I don't see or know much of him beyond him trying to make Scotland independent (Which would've crippled both Scotland and England) and playing golf. I need to just sit down and listen to his ideals and determine whether he's left or right wing, or neutral, then I can make a judgment.

I want to vote Green, but I know if I do that, then the Conservatives will win. Every vote that is drawn away from Labour and goes to a minority party like the Greens or UKIP just means the Conservatives will once again become the most popular party with the most voters and they'll remain in Downing Street anyway. So for now I'm going to have to vote Labour just to keep Cameron out - the lesser of two evils lol.

Can't say I agree with you there on that point about Scotland going independent, I believe an independent would of thrived, considering we wouldn't have a Westminster government that squanders our oil money on things like illegal wars, and that we'd be able to actually choose who is in charge of us, among other reasons. I could go on for ages, but it's probably a bit off topic, so I'll leave it for another day :p.

As for the SNP, they're a slightly left wing party (Well I say slightly, but compared to Labour nowadays they are very left wing party). In Scotland they've introduced things like free prescriptions and free tuition fees for a start, and I do believe they would have a positive effect on the rest of the UK. Bear in mind thought that Alex Salmond is no longer the leader, the leader is Nicola Sturgeon.

While you say that yes, voting green may enable a conservative win, is a Labour win really any better? In Scotland we call them the red Tories; the two parties have become so similar it's hard to distinguish them. The best case scenario for me is a Labour government held to account by a sizable amount of left wing MPs from other parties; I would probably consider a Labour majority as much of a disaster as a Conservative majority.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Can't say I agree with you there on that point about Scotland going independent, I believe an independent would of thrived, considering we wouldn't have a Westminster government that squanders our oil money on things like illegal wars, and that we'd be able to actually choose who is in charge of us, among other reasons. I could go on for ages, but it's probably a bit off topic, so I'll leave it for another day :p.

As for the SNP, they're a slightly left wing party (Well I say slightly, but compared to Labour nowadays they are very left wing party). In Scotland they've introduced things like free prescriptions and free tuition fees for a start, and I do believe they would have a positive effect on the rest of the UK. Bear in mind thought that Alex Salmond is no longer the leader, the leader is Nicola Sturgeon.

While you say that yes, voting green may enable a conservative win, is a Labour win really any better? In Scotland we call them the red Tories; the two parties have become so similar it's hard to distinguish them. The best case scenario for me is a Labour government held to account by a sizable amount of left wing MPs from other parties; I would probably consider a Labour majority as much of a disaster as a Conservative majority.

Oh I'm not saying Scotland wouldn't have thrived - if they did go independent you can bet I would've moved there - but it would have had everlasting damaging effects on England as a country. I also feel it wouldn't have sustained it's own free housing building, free tuition fees etc. but this is all just theoretical so don't take me word for word on this.

If they're left wing and wanting to introduce all that, then I for one would be happy to see them in power if they stay true to their word. I don't want to let them come into power only for them to care about Scottish issues and not about English ones - but again I think they'd be good in power if they stay true to their word and don't betray a generation of voters like the Lib Dems. They have a new leader? Interesting, I'll have to look into her but I could've sworn Salmond said he was running for Westminister.

I still have a lot of faith in Labour right now - I believe if they do get into power, at where the party is now, Ed Miliband won't be allowed free reign to make a lot of mistakes that Brown and Blair did - the party's been too divided for that. Out of the main three they are the only party I trust and I absolutely don't want to see the Conservatives come into power. Also it would just be hilarious to see David Cameron's face as he walks out of No. 10 and Ed walks in after him, after Cameron called him 'The Unelectable'.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
They have a new leader? Interesting, I'll have to look into her but I could've sworn Salmond said he was running for Westminister.

Salmond can still run for Westminster whilst standing down from the party leadership. I think the SNP would do well to cultivate English disgruntlement with the democratic inequalities between Scottish and English voters, something that would be well and truly fuelled by seeing Salmond in a coalition/confidence and supply arrangement.

I must say, it's strikes me how cordial this discussion has been compared to the typical US politics thread - we've SNP, Labour/Green and Tory-affiliated posters (I used to work for Andrew Mitchell before moving on to a broader Tory research team) and there's been no blood yet.
 
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I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
I must say, it's strikes me how cordial this discussion has been compared to the typical US politics thread - we've SNP, Labour/Green and Tory-affiliated posters (I used to work for Andrew Mitchell before moving on to a broader Tory research team) and there's been no blood yet.

Just wait until the UKIP followers come, they'll be a few arguments that'll spiral out of control lol.

The discussion on the most part has been cordial because we're discussing Labour/SNP/Green for the most part - all left wing parties you and I are in favour of (for the most part).
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
I'm not US, but I wish more people would vote for someone other than Republican or Democrat. I just want to see something new, especially considering Obama hasn't done much to my knowledge. But maybe I'm just too ignorant to judge
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever

I Pink Elephant

Shiny Hunter
I voted for the first time during the 2010 election (Only because I was too young to vote in any elections before hand), and I went for the Lib Dems. At the time, they represented what I wanted from a political part. Now? I will not be voting for them even if my life depended on it. Yes, I understand why they had to go into the coalition, but frankly they sold their souls for power and have done nothing to make up for it. As such, I am going to vote for the Green Party. I am quite glad, in a way, that I was pushed away from the Lib Dems, as I think the Greens match my views on social equality, education and the health system. I am actually going to join the party and see what I can do to help spread their views.

As for the other parties, well, the Tories stand for most of the things I am against when it comes to government. Although I must say, I applaud Cameron for taking a the risk and getting gay marriage passed into law. Labour seem lost, and need a stronger leader to take a more direct 'left' stance on issues if they want to win over more people. UKIP and the BNP... well, frankly they terrify me. Even if you take away the whole 'immigration/EU' (Admittedly I am more pro-EU then anti...) then their views on education, heath care reforms, gay rights etc worry me.

Anyway, no matter what happens, I think this is going to be one of the tightest, and most memorable elections in a long time.
 
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I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
I voted for the first time during the 2010 election (Only because I was too young to vote in any elections before hand), and I went for the Lib Dems. At the time, they represented what I wanted from a political part. Now? I will not be voting for them even if my life depended on it. Yes, I understand why they had to go into the coalition, but frankly they sold their souls for power and have done nothing to make up for it. As such, I am going to vote for the Green Party. I am quite glad, in a way, that I was pushed away from the Lib Dems, as I think the Greens match my views on social equality, education and the health system. I am actually going to join the party and see what I can do to help spread their views.

As for the other parties, well, the Tories stand for most of the things I am against when it comes to government. Although I must say, I applaud Cameron for taking a the risk and getting gay marriage passed into law. Labour seem lost, and need a stronger leader to take a more direct 'left' stance on issues if they want to win over more people. UKIP and the BNP... well, frankly they terrify me. Even if you take away the whole 'immigration/EU' (Admittedly I am more pro-EU then anti...) then their views on education, heath care reforms, gay rights etc worry me.

Anyway, no matter what happens, I think this is going to be one of the tightest, and most memorable elections in a long time.

There is so much win with this post that I don't know where to start lol.

You're joining the Green Party? Awesome, I know a friend who joined and he's in all the activism marching stuff and says it was one of the greatest decisions of his life - that the party is very kind towards him and that he gets to make so many contributions. He was over the moon yesterday because he was apart of the march in Newcastle with the Greens, which gained enough publicity for a broadcast on ITV news and even Russian Today lol.

UKIP just scare me primarily because of all their bigotry and lies. How people can say they are the People's Army when most of their leading members are ex-tories and their leader wishes to keep Thatcherism alive today...I'll never know.

I will be voting Labour myself but if the Greens manage to gain a large amount of support and recognition in the run up to May, I will consider switching my vote. The Guardian newsite recently did their own mathematical predictions for the election;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2015/feb/27/guardian-poll-projection

Two overall parties would need a total of 326 seats to earn a majority in Parliament; I personally feel that if Labour and the SNP do well in the run up to the election (If Ed doesn't screw up again lol) and if Conservatives/UKIP do worse in the run up to the election...We may have a Labour/SNP coalition. Though I just pray we don't get a three-party majority that involves Conservatives, Lib Dems or UKIP, that would be a nightmare.

This is definitely going to be one of the closest elections of all time, largely because now people are losing faith in the three main parties and are looking elsewhere...I'm starting to think this decade may seen the end of the Liberal Democrats in terms of popularity, and their slot may be overtaken in time by UKIP if they get more and more popular.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
Too much Green love, I think - I fancy I'll drop this here: http://order-order.com/2015/02/24/natalie-bennetts-fuel-efficient-car-crash-on-lbc/

Yes, it's little more than a fun dig from Guido (an excellent, if unabashedly pro-Tory blog, and one that does actually get read by big players), but it does highlight considerable questions about Green spending plans - £60k per house is cloud cuckoo land. Green policies are extremely generous and austerity does seem to have gotten the country's economy back on track.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...oll-projection

Two overall parties would need a total of 326 seats to earn a majority in Parliament; I personally feel that if Labour and the SNP do well in the run up to the election (If Ed doesn't screw up again lol) and if Conservatives/UKIP do worse in the run up to the election...We may have a Labour/SNP coalition. Though I just pray we don't get a three-party majority that involves Conservatives, Lib Dems or UKIP, that would be a nightmare.

Interesting poll (and one that drives home my very first point about the Labour campaign being terrible). In such an eventuality I suspect there'd be a Tory, confidence-and-supply minority, as I increasingly think a Lab/SNP coalition would be absolute political suicide for the former. When you're facing wipeout in Scotland, the absolute last thing you want to do is alienate English voters. England is inherently centre-right - I once heard that the only time England alone (disregarding the rest of the UK) voted for a Labour government was in 1997, and that was Nu Labour. The runner-up party achieving power through a deal with a party that doesn't represent England and effectively enjoys double influence (via the national legislature) would rankle like hell and might even precipitate a constitutional crisis.

To throw another recent topic into the mix, how do people feel about the scandal surrounding Straw and Rifkind? Regardless of these two specific examples, should MPs be allowed second jobs? Should they be paid in-line with other professionals? Is it enough to declare interests?
 
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I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Nigel Farage is on Sky News live advocating his change to his immigration plans, stating he will instead stop 27,000 immigrants from entering the UK than the initial 50,000 and wants the UK to become the new Australia - that he wants to scrap benefits.

God I cannot stand the seagull-necked jerk.
 
Oh Farage - Maybe if you could avoid a muck up for at least one week you'd have a hope of getting into the double figures seat wise. At the very least, he seems to of stopped going on about that nonsense about abolishing the Scottish Parliament.

Anyone see him on TV saying he wouldn't make a good prime minister? That's an odd strategy he's got going there.

Anyway, the Scottish polls are looking good, last one was saying that the SNP would be getting 56/59 of the Scottish seats :) I imagine that the establishment will manage to whip up some last minute scare story in an attempt to turn it around, much like the referendum, but we'll see. As we in the SNP say though, we're in no way complacent, as we've been screwed over by opinion polls before. *cough*referendum*cough*.

I was hoping to see the greens gain a bit of traction by now, though. I dunno about any of you guys in England (I'm assuming you's are in England :p), but I've not seen much of them since Natalie Bennett apologized for that interview :/. Ah well, here's to hoping they can turn things around with the TV debates. (Before you guys mention the 2010 debates and Clegg, yeah that didn't have much of an effect on the Lib Dems, but bear in mind the second Salmond vs Darling debate was the real start of the Yes campaign, and pulled up Yes support from about 25% to 40%, so I wouldn't go ruling them out yet.)

As for Milliband ruling out an SNP deal, I wouldn't be surprised if he uses that as a last ditch effort to try and save Scottish Labour - if they're not already beyond saving, that is.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Oh Farage - Maybe if you could avoid a muck up for at least one week you'd have a hope of getting into the double figures seat wise. At the very least, he seems to of stopped going on about that nonsense about abolishing the Scottish Parliament.

Anyone see him on TV saying he wouldn't make a good prime minister? That's an odd strategy he's got going there.

Anyway, the Scottish polls are looking good, last one was saying that the SNP would be getting 56/59 of the Scottish seats :) I imagine that the establishment will manage to whip up some last minute scare story in an attempt to turn it around, much like the referendum, but we'll see. As we in the SNP say though, we're in no way complacent, as we've been screwed over by opinion polls before. *cough*referendum*cough*.

I was hoping to see the greens gain a bit of traction by now, though. I dunno about any of you guys in England (I'm assuming you's are in England :p), but I've not seen much of them since Natalie Bennett apologized for that interview :/. Ah well, here's to hoping they can turn things around with the TV debates. (Before you guys mention the 2010 debates and Clegg, yeah that didn't have much of an effect on the Lib Dems, but bear in mind the second Salmond vs Darling debate was the real start of the Yes campaign, and pulled up Yes support from about 25% to 40%, so I wouldn't go ruling them out yet.)

As for Milliband ruling out an SNP deal, I wouldn't be surprised if he uses that as a last ditch effort to try and save Scottish Labour - if they're not already beyond saving, that is.

I didn't see him saying that this week, but I did see him on Loose Women today saying it is a 'fact of life' that mothers always earn less then men do, today of all days. Not a good way to gain the women's vote. I'll look up him saying that, and anyone see him on twitter posting a pic of an isle behind him on a beach? Everyone's jumped on that bandwagon and said 'There's angry immigrants behind you....' 'There's breastfeeding mother mob behind you...' etc. Check it out.

I heard recently the Greens are planning an alliance with SNP and Plaid Cyru as they agree on a lot of polices, so perhaps they will all gain a majority together.

I like as well how Cameron is insisting Milliband is the devil for considering a deal with the SNP - one party that will bankrupt the country and another that will deny it. He's getting worried now.

The sad thing is, a Labour/SNP partnership would work wonders if Milliband wasn't so egotistic. Looking at the parties now, I personally feel the Labour/SNP would be the only two parties to gain a majority in Parliament right now.

As for the tv debates, to be quite honest, I think the Conservatives would actually benefit from not appearing on the show as they'll be torn to shreds if Cameron appears. Right now they've been far away from the spotlight as the media picks up the latest UKIP controversy and tries to cover Labour and SNP, and I think in Cameron's view, he'll let them tear each other apart, then be left with less scars to try to ensure the bigger vote.

I'm hoping personally the Greens and Labour will look at not tearing each other apart or tearing the SNP apart, but instead focusing on UKIP and Lib Dems to ensure they get as little votes as possible.

Overall, what I'm hoping for is a Labour/SNP majority - since the SNP are doing better than usual now, and if Labour do better in the coming weeks, this may be the next coalition, which would be much better than anything involving Conservatives, Lib Dems or UKIP.

Hell, anything but UKIP. Farage in power would be enough for me to leave the UK.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
The debate shenanigans seem to be backfiring on the broadcasters a bit now - the obligation to maintain balance is making it hard to set their own terms. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about the debates generally, there's no denying that Cameron is wholeheartedly squirming out but I do think it's important that debates do not become obligatory. They can only ever really be inter-spliced party broadcasts, they're inherently balanced in favour of the opposition and politics has enough cult of personality as it is.

In other news, whilst it's probably a bit of scare-mongering to motivate their readerbase, the Guardian reckons the Tories might be setting the foundations for a poll lead in the coming weeks:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...he-polls-are-moving-the-overtaking-is-upon-us

UK Polling Report is whispering in a similar direction, too:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9282
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever

Scammel

Well-Known Member
The last few weeks have been very interesting, haven't they? Of course, the recent 'debate' has been dominating the discourse, so what do folks think? Personally, it was quite gratifying to see Paxman back to full form, even if it did detract from some proper policy discussion.

Cameron was very polished, a little dry and rather squirmy at times - but he was stuffed full of policy detail and good numbers (1000 jobs a day is fantastic, especially considering that 780 of them are full-time and merely 20 are zero-hours, which aren't inherently awful).

Miliband came across as a really nice guy who responded well to a lot of aggro and conveyed some good messages on broad picture stuff (relating living standards to tax receipts was important, as was disavowing attacks on the middle classes). However, he was very sketchy on details and made loads of concessions about his prior record in government without managing the Cameron trick of 'No, we haven't quite done X, but we have done Y' - he kinda just crumpled when faced with that line of questioning.

Overall, Cameron definitely won it for me, but we did get to see a side of Miliband that doesn't always come across. It's a long-running gag that if he stands up and doesn't soil himself, he's done well, and he definitely didn't soil himself. Cameron won the battle, but Miliband might have gained a foothold in the war.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
The last few weeks have been very interesting, haven't they? Of course, the recent 'debate' has been dominating the discourse, so what do folks think? Personally, it was quite gratifying to see Paxman back to full form, even if it did detract from some proper policy discussion.

Cameron was very polished, a little dry and rather squirmy at times - but he was stuffed full of policy detail and good numbers (1000 jobs a day is fantastic, especially considering that 780 of them are full-time and merely 20 are zero-hours, which aren't inherently awful).

Miliband came across as a really nice guy who responded well to a lot of aggro and conveyed some good messages on broad picture stuff (relating living standards to tax receipts was important, as was disavowing attacks on the middle classes). However, he was very sketchy on details and made loads of concessions about his prior record in government without managing the Cameron trick of 'No, we haven't quite done X, but we have done Y' - he kinda just crumpled when faced with that line of questioning.

Overall, Cameron definitely won it for me, but we did get to see a side of Miliband that doesn't always come across. It's a long-running gag that if he stands up and doesn't soil himself, he's done well, and he definitely didn't soil himself. Cameron won the battle, but Miliband might have gained a foothold in the war.

Personally I myself thought that Milliband won as he managed to deliver some good answers to detailed questions, but got a lot of harsh questions ("Do you think your brother would have done a better job?" was just ridiculous). I think as well Cameron got off easy in comparison to not suffering from any insulting questions (Would have liked a "How can you say you'll save the NHS when you've destroyed it" or similar ones in relation to education etc.).

I'm really not looking forward to the TV debates as all because it's going to be a complete and utter circus ****storm. We'll have Farage, the leader of the SNP, Milliband and Cameron all trading blows and ripping each other to pieces while Cleggy will insist he's the 'average middle man in the middle' that we should all vote for when he isn't. I just know that, as Cameron and Farage have proved that they don't care about advocating their own policies and instead on disgracing the opposition, they'll just spend the time insulting the other leaders and I really don't care for that.

In recent weeks in terms of election news...There hasn't been much else happening. More UKIP members are leaving over racist/homophobic comments and recently I've been reading a guide on all the controversial things every one of their members and contributors have said/done - absolutely disgusting stuff.

I don't really care who'll be in power in May so long as Farage isn't allowed anywhere near the big table. He is complete and utter fascist scum that belongs in a prison.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
Would have liked a "How can you say you'll save the NHS when you've destroyed it" or similar ones in relation to education etc.

He'd have shrugged it off with figures about the numbers of doctors/nurses and levels of spending. Cameron's favourite technique is to remember a key figure or two for every policy area, then use them to combat criticisms - as a strategy it's not a bad one and plenty of the numbers are undeniably pretty good (0% inflation, 1000 jobs a day, 8000 more doctors in the NHS, fastest-growing major developed economy, a record number of disadvantaged students at university, etc.). It's definitely true that he could spend more time advocating his record rather than launching attacks, but he does at least have a decent record to advocate.

Let's also not pretend that Labour aren't as bad on the negative attack front - that 'Cut to the bone' poster is nothing but scaremongering after the Tories have specifically pledged to not cut a single penny from the NHS.

I do agree that Paxman and what's-er-face were more hostile to Miliband than they were to Cameron, but it's also worth bearing in mind that Miliband had a major advantage inasmuch that he got to watch Cameron beforehand, so swings and roundabouts.

Also, I just watched this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-series-4-3-im-a-conservative-ask-me-anything

God it made my head hurt, how cretinous some of the questions and comments were. The worst had to be the caustic remark at the end about the party being white and middle-class, with the screen sat right next to a black, working-class minister. I've yet to see the other equivalent debates, but I really hope they kept the village idiots out for those.

EDIT: I just watched 5 minutes of the Labour version. It was just as awful. This is why we pay actual political commentators to ask proper questions.
 
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I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Decided to bump this as of 13/04/15

The election is drawing nearer and the polls keep changing in terms of which party is the most popular. Right now I believe Ed Milliband is at the top with 35%, followed by David Cameron with 30%. The last I heard of UKIP, it was about one of their members saying all pregnant women who are expecting a child they believe will have an illness such as down syndrome should be forced to have an abortion. How people can say UKIP is the people's party and not the modern British version of the Nazi party I will never understand.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
The polls are utterly neck-and-neck. The Guardian was quick to put out a headline last week on how Labour came out on top in 3 consecutive polls, then went quiet when two more suggested the opposite that very same day. As it stands the Tories are probably a little more likely to end up as the larger party (the incumbency boost will likely kick in in the last few days) but won't be able to form a coalition that gives them a majority.
 
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