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UK General Election and Politics 2015 - The time has come for change!

Concept

Führer of Fun
Because I must at all times be as unpopular as possible, I voted Labour in 2010 and will most likely vote Lib Dem this time around. For both elections I've lived in a Lib-Lab marginal (that went Lab in 2010).

In 2010 (being an impressionable 18 year old) I was caught up in Cleggmania like most other people my age, but in the week leading to the election two things changed my mind. First, my local Lib Dem candidate was so patronising. Secondly, they were delusional. Their principles sounded wonderful but if you looked closer at their policies there was no sense of how to fund anything or how to practically achieve what they wanted to achieve. Incidentally this is why I won't vote Green; lovely principles but it's obvious they haven't the first clue how to practically achieve or fund anything, wouldn't trust them to run a bake sale.

Imo the Lib Dems seem to have learnt their lesson from five years in government. Their policies this time around seem to be much more coherently thought through/funded, and they've been a lot clearer about which ones they are and aren't willingly to compromise on (whereas in 2010 they didn't give any indication) and I like the ones they've spelled out as red lines - and they're modest enough that I don't see either the Tories or Labour outright refusing. Plus I really don't want to see any of the nationalist parties - UKIP, Plaid, SNP - with power over government. I'd prefer a Lib-Lab deal to a Lib-Con one but either way I want to see a Lib Dem influence on government. Lib-Con and Labour majority roughly equal in terms of appeal to me.

On the subject of UKIP; their overriding focus is on the EU and immigration, where I strongly disagree with them, but the party leadership isn't pantomime villains; stances like opposition to military intervention in foreign countries and the softening of benefit sanctions are, imo, laudable. However to quote the Independent, I consider nationalism guilty until proven innocent (that goes for Plaid and the SNP too). Plaid and the SNP want to blame everything on Westminster and the English; UKIP want to blame everything on Brussels and Eastern Europeans. Both are childish mud-slinging and both have chosen other policies purely and simply to best appeal to the target audience of their main message (leaving the UK/EU, respectvely). UKIP do worse in Scotland because Scottish voters who just want someone else to blame for their woes already vote SNP (not to say that all SNP voters do so for that reason, I'm sure many have honest support for their anti-austerity message first and foremost).

Alternatively there's a Monster Raving Loony candidate standing in my constituency, I might walk into the polling station tomorrow and decide on the protest vote.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Alternatively there's a Monster Raving Loony candidate standing in my constituency, I might walk into the polling station tomorrow and decide on the protest vote.

All I'm going to say is if you truly want a protest vote, not voting or actually voting for another party isn't the answer. What you should do, and what Russell Brand should've instructed his followers to do before he decided to vote Labour, is to take your voting card to the polling station, cross all the possible candidates in a big red 'X', then everyone should just write a trendy message such as 'I vote for an end to this system' or something like that so the people who count these votes and the MPs in Parliament have no choice but to acknowledge these protest votes and cannot try to call them anything else. People voting UKIP or the Monster Raving Loony party as protest votes could just be seen by the MPs to just be voting for what they may believe in.

With regards to the Liberal Democrats, I want to place my trust in them again but everyday now Nick Clegg seems to suggest he will go back on his word. He's already announced he'll compromise his EU stance and some of his manifesto's education policies in preparation for potential coalition talks, and his only 'red lining' is the amount of cuts that can be made on the NHS. What irks me more is that if he really is preparing for another ConLib coalition, it will be even worse now as there will be even fewer Liberal Democrat MPs - thereby if we get another ConLib coalition, if you take a pessimistic stance against the Conservative party for the difficult economic conditions we working class people have had to endure like me - then we're going to be even more worse off. Hell, Clegg's already evaded the question of whether he would raise tuition fees five times in an interview because there's talks the Conservatives want to raise tuitions again to £11,500 - Jesus.

I will be voting Labour tomorrow, and my faith in Ed Milliband is renewed. I'm disgusted by the Sun newspaper for their shaming and mockery for Milliband just on his personal background and appearance - then again everything about the Sun newspaper disgusts me when their two main columners are Jeremy Clarkson and Katie Hopkins and their bankrolled by a man who still hasn't been arrested for phone hacking. From now to 2020 I plan to join the Green Party as an activist and work to boost their popularity in the region I live in, hoping that they may become strong contenders in the run up to the 2020 election.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
At the end of the day I'm not going to pretend I know how exactly to run a country but Lib Dem red lines are things I can get behind; raising the personal tax allowance, extra funding for education and the NHS above and beyond what either Labour or the Conservatives are offering, and pay rises for the public sector. I agree with these policies in principle and, unlike most Green policies, they're not fatally incompetent. On the other hand the only policy I know Labour won't welch on in negotiations is the non-dom thing (which even Ed Balls was against six months ago so yeah) and correspondingly for the Tories the only thing we know they won't compromise on is the EU referendum - and I don't really care about that either way.

I don't care about the tuition fees thing because many graduates on the £9k fees will pay no more than me (on the £3k fees) because of the other rule change everyone ignored - those on £9k fees pay back 9% of everything they earn over £21k each year, whilst those on £3k pay back 9% of everything over £16k each year. By the time they reach the 30 year cutoff at which point remaining debt is waived, the lowest earning graduates will be almost £15k better off under the new, higher fees - and given the government invest so much money into our university system (above and beyond what our fees, lots of which we will never pay back, pay for) I've no issue with making those graduates who've benefited most from government support of the university system contribute a little more back*.

As for the other parties, I won't touch nationalism (SNP, UKIP, Plaid) with a barge pole regardless of what else they offered, and the Greens are lovely people but fatally incompetent - every serious economic analysis of their manifesto has reached the conclusion that their policies bare no resemblance to the real world.

*Quick back of envelope calculations; graduates who earn on average £31k per year will pay back the same total under both systems, but the old system pays it back faster whilst the new one pays less per year. Those who earn less than £31k pay back less under £9k than £3k rules. Those who earn more pay back more in the new system.
 
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Scammel

Well-Known Member
but the party leadership isn't pantomime villains

I think it's worth emphasising that all the parties have some pretty slimy grassroots in some corners of the country. A Jewish journalist was recently attacked at a Respect event in Bradford; another pair of UKIP candidates have been suspended for saying stupid things; Labour MPs attended an event segregated by gender; one local Labour team went around telling orthodox religious voters that the Tory candidate was gay (he is) to discourage them from voting for him, Jim Murphy was attacked by some SNP thugs - I know Tories will have done equally cretinous things up and down the country, but UKIP does have a bit of a point when they say that these other incidents don't attract anywhere near the same degree of media attention.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
but UKIP does have a bit of a point when they say that these other incidents don't attract anywhere near the same degree of media attention.

Oh they do, at least all the parties bar the Conservatives do (Because Murdoch owns too much media outlets such as The Sun and endorses the Conservatives now) have received media attention for their bad-apples, the difference between them and UKIP is that it is far more common with UKIP because they are an extreme-right wing nationalist party that are on the rise and trying to gain publicity - regardless of whether it's good or bad. Hell even this week, one MP has been expelled for threatening to kill a Conservative MP with a gun, and another has been suspended for suggesting that a local muslim journalist would 'like a big black thing up her ***'. This is a party who could easily be seen as pantomime villains.

Then again, most of the reason why the party leaders are seen as panto villains now is because the people do not trust any of them anymore. Labour lost their trust when they failed to deal with the Global banking crisis in time and the deficit rose (Not their fault imo), the Conservatives have lost trust because of the high taxes they imposed in the past coalition and the lies they told to win the election ("We will not raise VAT!" *Two months later it is raised* "We will not reshuffle the NHS!" *A year later, one of the biggest NHS reshuffles in history undergoes* "We will support the younger generations!" *Triples tuition fees, allows Gove to reorganise the GCSE mandatory subjects and try to abolish NVQs*) and the Lib Dems for supporting the Conservatives in telling these lies. The people refuse to trust any of them again and for good reason.
 
David Cameron has to be very enthusiastic over his party's performance tonight. Clegg not so much.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
I've been following the polls far too closely for the past 2 months, and only a single one came anywhere near the reality - ICM had the Tories on 36 to 30 but still lacking a majority and this was almost universally dismissed as an outlier. No-one, not even Lynton Freakin' Crosby, thought a majority would be within arms' reach like this. I think Cameron will find his backbenchers are a lot more receptive in coming months.....
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Cannot believe Cameron won - the voting system needs urgent reforms that it won't receive now thanks to him. Over a million people voted Green, and they only got one seat? Just plain wrong.

At least this is the end of Nigel Farage, there's a plus. There are talks of Ed Milliband stepping down - Ed Balls wants him gone by dinnertime. Man am I disappointed in Labour.

Nick Clegg has stepped down, not surprised.
 
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fishyfool

And a nice chianti
Is it too late to migrate to Ireland? Because I just know that smug git will screw us scots over like a parasite.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Is it too late to migrate to Ireland? Because I just know that smug git will screw us scots over like a parasite.

You're better off where you're at; if you guys go independent there in Scotland, I'm coming over there lol.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
Cannot believe Cameron won - the voting system needs urgent reforms that it won't receive now thanks to him. Over a million people voted Green, and they only got one seat? Just plain wrong.

Oh, electoral reform is absolutely on the agenda, it's been widely known for years now that the current constituency boundaries significantly favour Labour over the Tories. And I agree, the system could be more proportional. It probably would be fairer for UKIP to have 70+ seats and the SNP to only have less than half of that.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
I doubt we'll see electoral reform beyond minor constituency boundary changes. The problem that our voting system heavily discounts smaller parties in turn means that the majority of MPs come from parties which very much benefit from not changing it. But it is ridiculous that we have a system where Labour increased their vote share by almost 2% and lose thirty seats (but Labour still have a higher seat share than vote share) whilst the Conservatives increased theirs by less than 1% and picked up another 25 seats. Both the Greens and UKIP roughly quadrupled their vote over 2010 (with UKIP at ~12.5% and Greens at ~4%) - both have one seat in a commons of 650. Meanwhile the SNP polled somewhere in between them (~4.5%) and wind up with over 50 seats. Ridiculous.

Neither will the government be particularly stable. The majority is slender enough that Cameron will be beholden to his most fundamentalist backbenchers, (fewer than ten rebelling can cause him to lose a vote). It's a smaller majority than Major won in 1992, and by 1997 defections and by-elections had reduced him to minority government.

Unrelatedly I also feel really bad for Nick Clegg and hope history is kinder to him than the electorate has been.
 
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Absolutely fantastic result in Scotland - was at the vote count in Gordon (Salmond's constituency) and we won it by a mile. Absolutely fantastic. From 6 seats to 56 isn't an earthquake; it's a tsunami. The Scottish lion will roar with a voice that no Westminster government will be able to ignore.

On a UK level though..... wow. Never would of guessed that the Tories would have got a majority. Strangely, Cameron seems to be talking up devolution a lot now. Interesting. I think that the result of this election has pretty much guaranteed Scottish Independence though. SNP on 50% in Scotland, with other pro-indy parties factored in that number is even higher. After 5 years of Tory government, I can only see that number increasing, too. I wonder how hurt the country will be after 5 years of Tory cuts.
 

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Oh, electoral reform is absolutely on the agenda, it's been widely known for years now that the current constituency boundaries significantly favour Labour over the Tories. And I agree, the system could be more proportional. It probably would be fairer for UKIP to have 70+ seats and the SNP to only have less than half of that.

Whilst I absolutely don't want more UKIP influence in Parliament, I suppose it would be fair but it must only work to the point where parties aren't allowed to do deals. Whoever gets the most votes wins simple as that, even if it's less than say 250. That way, democracy can be more effective in Parliament, legislations will be took more seriously and the people can be better represented.

Unrelatedly I also feel really bad for Nick Clegg and hope history is kinder to him than the electorate has been.

Whilst I'll forever remember him as that man who did a deal with the devil just for a short history of fame and glory, I did feel particularly sympathetic when I saw the tears in his eyes at the speech and a columnist said he was crying aftewards. But the damage has been done - the Lib Dems are at their lowest point of all time. That is due to him making a deal with the wrong party leader. Imagine how better off he would've been if he made that deal with Gordon Brown.

Still, I wish we did just have another coalition than a tory majority. At least Clegg would be there to block some policies and legislations, now the tories just have free reign to screw us over.

On a UK level though..... wow. Never would of guessed that the Tories would have got a majority. Strangely, Cameron seems to be talking up devolution a lot now. Interesting. I think that the result of this election has pretty much guaranteed Scottish Independence though. SNP on 50% in Scotland, with other pro-indy parties factored in that number is even higher. After 5 years of Tory government, I can only see that number increasing, too. I wonder how hurt the country will be after 5 years of Tory cuts.

You guys should've gone independent when yous have the chance, now you'll be feeling the sting of tory cuts. There's already talks of privatising parts of the NHS through the TTIP treaty with the US and the rest of the world. I'm absolutely disgusted with our voting system and this nation right now....
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
Strangely, Cameron seems to be talking up devolution a lot now. Interesting.

I'm not as surprised as I might be. The last election saw what was thought to be one of the most unlikely coalitions ever and the SNP already have a history of doing deals with the Tories. Throw in Sturgeon's prior comments about wanting Cameron to be PM and conspicuous attempts to nuke the Labour vote by talking up a deal, I think they might find more common ground than expected.

I think that the result of this election has pretty much guaranteed Scottish Independence though.

Not under this government. The decision is entirely Cameron's to make and he'll quite rightly remind the SNP that this was a once-in-a-lifetime chance. We're not repeating this until we get the 'right' outcome - it would be met with equally deserved outrage if the reverse were true.

Whilst I absolutely don't want more UKIP influence in Parliament, I suppose it would be fair but it must only work to the point where parties aren't allowed to do deals. Whoever gets the most votes wins simple as that, even if it's less than say 250. That way, democracy can be more effective in Parliament, legislations will be took more seriously and the people can be better represented.

That makes zero sense, and I suspect it's because you just realised what the implications would actually be. 'Whoever gets the most votes gets to pass legislation without the need for deals' is a worse version of the system we already have. The Tories would still have won this time around and wouldn't have needed the Lib Dems last time.
 
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You guys should've gone independent when yous have the chance, now you'll be feeling the sting of tory cuts. There's already talks of privatising parts of the NHS through the TTIP treaty with the US and the rest of the world. I'm absolutely disgusted with our voting system and this nation right now....

Trust me, I wish we had. We're still fighting for it to this day though - another 5 years of Conservative rule should make Independence pretty likely. Not to mention we've got one of the most intelligent politicians as our leader. The more things like TTIP that the Conservatives push through, the further they will push Scotland away. No one person has done more damage to the union than David Cameron himself.

I'm not as surprised as I might be. The last election saw what was thought to be one of the most unlikely coalitions ever and the SNP already have a history of doing deals with the Tories. Throw in Sturgeon's prior comments about wanting Cameron to be PM and conspicuous attempts to nuke the Labour vote by talking up a deal, I think they might find more common ground than expected.

Not under this government. The decision is entirely Cameron's to make and he'll quite rightly remind the SNP that this once a once-in-a-lifetime chance. We're not repeating this until we get the 'right' outcome - it would be met with equally deserved outrage if the reverse were true.

First of all, I would like to point that Sturgeon did not make those comments - they were fabricated by the Libs in the Scotland office. And there won't be any deal with the Tories - the Tories have a majority and don't need a deal, so if they do give us powers it's just going to be a desperate attempt to stop the SNP, which likely won't work as it hasn't done in the past.

As for a second referendum, it's not Cameron's choice, and it's not the SNP's choice either. If the Scottish people vote for a majority SNP government in the Scottish parliament on the promise of a second referendum, it will be seen as undemocratic for Cameron to block it. If Cameron dares to deny the will of the Scottish people, there will be heavy consequences.
 
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Concept

Führer of Fun
Strangely, Cameron seems to be talking up devolution a lot now. Interesting.

How is this strange? He's not saying anything that all three parties haven't been saying since the referendum.

Whilst I'll forever remember him as that man who did a deal with the devil just for a short history of fame and glory, I did feel particularly sympathetic when I saw the tears in his eyes at the speech and a columnist said he was crying aftewards. But the damage has been done - the Lib Dems are at their lowest point of all time. That is due to him making a deal with the wrong party leader. Imagine how better off he would've been if he made that deal with Gordon Brown.

I don't think this is a particularly fair analysis of what he did. The people who voted for him voted for Lib Dem policies. He got more of those through as part of government than he could of outside of it - Lib Dem voters got some Lib Dem policies onto the government agenda for the first time, they should've been ecstatic. Also a Lab-Lib deal in 2010 would've still been noticeably short of a majority (even with the SNP added on it still wouldn't have been a majority), and Brown had clearly lost. In no way was that a workable deal. No matter what Clegg did, the Conservatives were going into power in 2010. His choice was whether to have significant influence on them or not.

Whilst I absolutely don't want more UKIP influence in Parliament, I suppose it would be fair but it must only work to the point where parties aren't allowed to do deals. Whoever gets the most votes wins simple as that, even if it's less than say 250. That way, democracy can be more effective in Parliament, legislations will be took more seriously and the people can be better represented.

This defeats the point. The entire point of making it more proportional is to stop the largest party from overruling the majority of voters - to force parties to make deals and compromises to better reflect the views of the electorate as a whole rather than just the views of the ~35% who voted for the largest party.
 
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How is this strange? He's not saying anything that all three parties haven't been saying since the referendum.

Mainly strange because he seems to be speaking about devolution to Scotland without mentioning EVEL - I would of thought that with a majority he would have tried to water down whatever powers he gives Scotland, and mainly focus on pushing through EVEL. I guess we'll find out what's gonna happen soon enough.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
I would of thought that with a majority he would have tried to water down whatever powers he gives Scotland.

Fun fact I learnt off the BBC; the average party keeps ~90% of it's manifesto promises in government (albeit often those promises are vague). The devolution powers promised just before the referendum appeared on all three of Con/Lib/Lab manifestos. At least in this country whilst politicians tend to weasel and avoid giving straight or specific answers, outright lying is actually quite rare. Cameron also legitimately seems to not want Scotland to leave, so naturally he's going to give all the stuff he promised.

Personally I think devolution is silly and the piecemeal way it's been done in the UK is ridiculous, but oh well. Neither Scotland nor England has existed in 300 years. Wales hasn't existed in even longer. We should stop pretending they still mean anything.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
First of all, I would like to point that Sturgeon did not make those comments - they were fabricated by the Libs in the Scotland office.

The Libs might have been behind the leak - whether the contents of the memo are true or not depends on whether you trust Sturgeon or a civil servant.

And there won't be any deal with the Tories - the Tories have a majority and don't need a deal

They'll definitely be courting other parties with a majority that slim. Obviously nothing on a coalition scale, but there will be deals.

As for a second referendum, it's not Cameron's choice, and it's not the SNP's choice either.

It's completely and utterly in Cameron's hands. Clearly, an SNP majority in the Scottish Parliament is comprehensively not a vote for independence - we just had a referendum to prove that.

I don't think this is a particularly fair analysis of what he did. The people who voted for him voted for Lib Dem policies. He got more of those through as part of government than he could of outside of it - Lib Dem voters got some Lib Dem policies onto the government agenda for the first time, they should've been ecstatic. Also a Lab-Lib deal in 2010 would've still been noticeably short of a majority (even with the SNP added on it still would've have been a majority), and Brown had clearly lost. In no way was that a workable deal. No matter what Clegg did, the Conservatives were going into power in 2010. His choice was whether to have significant influence on them or not.

So much of this. It was the first, best and possibly only chance the Lib Dems were ever going to get at government and they came close to achieving long-terms goals such as large-scale electoral reform.
 
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