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UK General Election and Politics 2015 - The time has come for change!

Fun fact I learnt off the BBC; the average party keeps ~90% of it's manifesto promises in government (albeit often those promises are vague). The devolution powers promised just before the referendum appeared on all three of Con/Lib/Lab manifestos. At least in this country whilst politicians tend to weasel and avoid giving straight or specific answers, outright lying is actually quite rare. Cameron also legitimately seems to not want Scotland to leave, so naturally he's going to give all the stuff he promised.

Personally I think devolution is silly and the piecemeal way it's been done in the UK is ridiculous, but oh well. Neither Scotland nor England has existed in 300 years. Wales hasn't existed in even longer. We should stop pretending they still mean anything.

Well, the proposals from the Smith Commission may be in the manifestos but it doesn't in any way resemble the desperate promises of "Devo to the max" and "near-federalism" that the three amigos scrambled up from Westminster to ram down the throats of the Scottish electorate.

And I wouldn't say devolution is silly, but it's been done in the wrong way. And, I think you'll find that Scotland does very much exist; and if the Westminster leaders fail to learn this then they're gonna end up loosing Scotland altogether.

The Libs might have been behind the leak - whether the contents of the memo are true or not depends on whether you trust Sturgeon or a civil servant.

They'll definitely be courting other parties with a majority that slim. Obviously nothing on a coalition scale, but there will be deals.

It's completely and utterly in Cameron's hands. Clearly, an SNP majority in the Scottish Parliament is comprehensively not a vote for independence - we just had a referendum to prove that.

The French Ambassador has stated that Nicola said nothing regarding who she preferred - but if you want to accuse her of lying, go on ahead.

Even if they are relying on deals then, Alex Salmond made clear last night when asked if there would be any deals that none would be made.

And I never said that a vote for the SNP would be a mandate for Independence - I said that if the SNP were elected on a majority to Holyrood with a promise for a second referendum in their manifesto, they would have a mandate for another referendum, not independence.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
The French Ambassador has stated that Nicola said nothing regarding who she preferred - but if you want to accuse her of lying, go on ahead.

I'm quite happy to. I'd take the word of a completely impartial, anonymous civil servant over one person desperately trying to save face and another person who would almost certainly want them to save face.

And I never said that a vote for the SNP would be a mandate for Independence - I said that if the SNP were elected on a majority to Holyrood with a promise for a second referendum in their manifesto, they would have a mandate for another referendum, not independence.

That's not a power the Scottish Parliament has - you might as well promise a referendum in France. Specific legislation was needed in Westminster for Scotland to have a referendum.
 
I'm quite happy to. I'd take the word of a completely impartial, anonymous civil servant over one person desperately trying to save face and another person who would almost certainly want them to save face.

That's not a power the Scottish Parliament has - you might as well promise a referendum in France. Specific legislation was needed in Westminster for Scotland to have a referendum.

So why would an elected official from another country who has no affiliation to the SNP lie to save their skin? Additionally, Alistair Carmichael claimed that leaks were "just something that happens during election campaigns" and that he knew who wrote the memo before the inquiry. For a start, if he thinks leaked documents are just part of the campaign, well IMO he doesn't deserve to keep his seat, no wonder his majority was cut short this election. And do you really think that Nicola Sturgeon, one of the most intelligent politicians in the UK, would be stupid enough to say something like that in a recorded conversation? I think not. But I think that the Scottish people have pretty clearly decided who was telling the truth in this matter by giving the SNP 50% of the vote in Scotland.

And if Cameron denies the Scottish people a referendum after a majority indicate that they want one by voting for a manifesto containing a promise for one, then we might as well be living in a dictatorship, because he would be ignoring the democratic will of the Scottish people.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
Imo both England and Scotland ceased to really exist with the union. If a referendum undoes that then that is of course fine as the right of a free people to self determination and I'd be fully supportive of an independent Scotland (and tempted to move there!) but right now England, Wales and Scotland do not exist any more than Prussia or the kingdom of Sussex exist. The UK exists. On a related note whilst I quite agree with a great deal of the SNP's progressive policies I consider nationalism inherently tribal and racist and so consider the SNP as bad as UKIP or the BNP. That's not intended as a slight at SNP voters - I'm sure the vast majority are lovely people who honestly support the same progressive and liberal social values that I do. But nationalism is claiming pride for achievements you had nothing to do with just because the person who did achieve them shared your nationality, and by creating the idea of an "us" it inherently brings an "us vs them" mindset that has no place in modern civilised society. The Conservative election campaign (scaremongering over Scottish influence) is a prime example of why I hate nationalism.

Like, rather than the nationalist mindset of "Scottish people" vs "English people" can we not just be "people who mostly want the same thing out of life but disagree on how to get there and can have a civilised discussion about it?"
 
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Imo both England and Scotland ceased to really exist with the union. If a referendum undoes that then that is of course fine as the right of a free people to self determination and I'd be fully supportive of an independent Scotland (and tempted to move there!) but right now England, Wales and Scotland do not exist any more than Prussia or the kingdom of Sussex exist. The UK exists. On a related note whilst I quite agree with a great deal of the SNP's progressive policies I consider nationalism inherently tribal and racist and so consider the SNP as bad as UKIP or the BNP. People should take pride in their own personal achievements, not claim collective responsibility for achievements they had nothing to do with just because the person who did do them happened to have the same nationality.

In my opinion, as long as people still in their hearts believe that Scotland exists then Scotland will always exist; additionally, we have our own parliament, and a number of different laws from the rest of Britain.

Well, there's a difference between the SNP's nationalism and UKIP's nationalism: The SNP do not hate England or the English, what we want is independence from the corrupt Westminster government. While parties like UKIP believe that we should attack minorities like immigrants, the SNP is the opposite; we actually support immigration to Scotland. Our nationalism is not based on excluding people unlike UKIP's nationalism which discriminates against minorities.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you guys aren't so bad it's just those guys in charge that we don't like. :p
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
EDIT the first: I don't have the time, energy or inclination to continue a full on debate over the virtues and sins of nationalism but this has been a very interesting and civil discussion, so thank you. Good natured debates like this on forums are a rare thing.
 
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Very late comments on the election aside, I for one am satisfied with this pure Tory government.

I'm hearing that the "In" option during the EU referendum will be similar to the Yes campaign during the Scottish one, and that is very reassuring to hear.

Anyone caught the Queen's Speech on the 27th? Finally, proposals for at least some control on immigration and an EU referendum. The rest is all peaches with the future of the economy looking brighter and brighter.
 
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