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Ultra Class! VS Elite Four Drasna! (1193)

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
i mean for anyone who's been around since AG, the way the battle was handled shouldn't be a new concept.

cause the majority of his hoenn and battle frontier matches were like that.

I mean @Dephender brought up the battle arena and Snorlax, what about the battle dome and his match with tucker?

Corphish and Swellow got hit by numerous attacks and extremely well calculated combinations and still came out the winner with effectively 1 hit each, if you watched that and didn't complain you can't complain about this fight.

AG battles that did this kind of "Pokemon takes a dozen hits before landing a ohko" crap were very frequently complained about back in the day. I don't actually remember the Battle Dome match, but the Haruka VS Takeshi contest battle I remember getting tons of hate for that kind of awful writing.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Just because AG were shitty with their battles doesn't mean this episode is allowed to be shitty as well, esp when it's an E4 match!! That too Ash's first victory!!
Plus I'd rather a double battle BS like Tucker at the very least since that'll mean we would have had something more unique

Don't get me wrong i'm happy he won too, but sometimes people only care for results, other times only the battle, there's never complete satisfaction to everyone, because someone will always find a chink to exploit in a fight.

but then again that's the undisputed truth on this board that what one likes another will dislike.
 

Nikinini

Well-Known Member
AG battles that did this kind of "Pokemon takes a dozen hits before landing a ohko" crap were very frequently complained about back in the day. I don't actually remember the Battle Dome match, but the Haruka VS Takeshi contest battle I remember getting tons of hate for that kind of awful writing.
XY had a couple of battles like this too, and people complained at the time, but nowadays those battles get nothing but praise.

Personally I don't mind the recent cases of this happening(Volkner, Drasna, and to a lesser extent Iris), because seeing Ash's opponents strategize so much only to lose easily as soon as he gets an opening makes it feel like he's just that much stronger than them. In the past Ash used to be the underdog that had to come up with crazy strategies to win, now it's the opposite. I don't think it's intentional, but I like it either way.

That being said, Ash's crazy strategies are the reason I like battles in the anime in the first place, so I hope things are more even in the Masters 8.
 
Ash vs Ramos. Frogadier took ALOT of Super Effective(and healing)moves before winning with a few Not-Very-Effective ones.
I don't know what about this thread made you think that people had a problem with theoretically Super Effective moves not working as they should in game lore(at least from what I've seen, maybe I missed something from this thread). There's no conceptual problem with one shots or winning with less hits than your opponent if its paced correctly and built-up. That happens all of the time. I'm assuming you're specifically talking about Frogadier vs Gogogoat? The entire Ramos episode was centered around Ash looking for an opportunity with Frogadier with the central conceit being that Ash was too busy with big picture and wasn't able to focus on the smaller things.

The problem with this episode was that it was wildly inconsistent, had whack pacing, didn't have any of the narrative structure/ backbone of the Ramos episode you seem to have a problem with, and was fundamentally unserious for an E4 match.

A similar example can be seen with another XY battle with Ash's second battle against Sawyer where imperfect AG completely demolished Sceptile after transforming. Again, narratively justified because the transformation was portrayed earlier in the series as being powerful and capable of that.
 
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Nikinini

Well-Known Member
I don't know what about this thread made you think that people had a problem with theoretically Super Effective moves not working as they should in game lore(at least from what I've seen, maybe I missed something from this thread). There's no conceptual problem with one shots or winning with less hits than your opponent if its paced correctly and built-up. That happens all of the time. I'm assuming you're specifically talking about Frogadier vs Gogogoat? The entire Ramos episode was centered around Ash looking for an opportunity with Frogadier with the central conceit being that Ash was too busy with big picture and wasn't able to focus on the smaller things.

The problem with this episode was that it was wildly inconsistent, didn't have any of the narrative structure/ backbone of the Ramos episode you seem to have a problem with, and felt completely unserious for an E4 match.

A similar example can be seen with another XY battle with Ash's second battle against Sawyer where imperfect AG completely demolished Sceptile after transforming. Again, narratively justified because the transformation was portrayed earlier in the series as being powerful and capable of that.
Wasn't the topic about battles where Ash takes alot of punishment, then wins with a few hits?

And I don't have a problem with the Ramos battle, I actually agree with you on this. But today's battle was the same: There was a 2 episode built up for Meteor Assault and Dragon Rush. Drasna dominated the entire battle, but as soon as Ash was able to hit her, he won.

Also, other than the scene between Dracovish and Altaria(which Ash took advantage of), the battle felt way more serious and intense than usual. If this wasn't the series' anniverssary I would've even expected Ash to lose.
 
Wasn't the topic about battles where Ash takes alot of punishment, then wins with a few hits?
No, the problem is the wild inconsistencies in how Dracovish and Sirfetch'd performed in the battle and the fundamental problem JN has with portraying battles and power levels that make logical sense with Pokemon that have so few battles(especially Dracovish) in a region that is supposed to be uber competitive. That pervasive problem is the context in which this battle is in. There needs to be proper justification for something like an E4 that is completely destroying Ash to just get one-shot like that, justification that is significantly heightened given the seriousness of the match and again, the quality of the opponent.
And I don't have a problem with the Ramos battle, I actually agree with you on this. But today's battle was the same: There was a 2 episode built up for Meteor Assault and Dragon Rush. Drasna dominated the entire battle, but as soon as Ash was able to hit her, he won.

Also, other than the scene between Dracovish and Altaria(which Ash took advantage of), the battle felt way more serious and intense than usual. If this wasn't the series' anniverssary I would've even expected Ash to lose.
It's not the same, for example, the JN two partner establishes that Meteor Assault as powerful, completely one-shots Clemont's Pokemon. Almost immediately in the battle with Noivern, Sirfetch'd is put on the back foot and uses Meteor Assault that Noivern completely shrugs off. Now there isn't much of a problem yet, Drasna is an E4 and established in the episode itself as a super powerful trainer so it makes sense for that to happen. Noivern recalled with it coming off as it literally had no scratch on it.

It starts up again in the same way with Dracovish with Altaria just clowning on it and (I don't have the subs for this), Ash's strategy to make Altaria wet fails as well.

So at this point, literally everything is going wrong, neither Noivern or Mega Altaria come across as having any significant damage to them and have just been manhandling Dracovish and Sirfetch'd. And yet somehow in the next few seconds, with literally no explanation or narrative reason how this happened, Sirfetch'd randomly OHKO's Mega Altaria with Meteor Assault, the same Meteor Assault that Noivern literally brushed off with a block and the viewer is supposed to believe that Mega Altaria, Drasna's ace and theoretically more powerful than Noivern , goes down to it after taking what looks like minimal damage by Dracovish.

This is completely incoherent, inconsistent, and insulting. There's no in-battle explanation for this as far as I can tell. Maybe there's one in the subs? I guess it might be the bond between Sirfetch'd and Dravovish that allowed for the incredibly powerful E4 Mega Ace to be randomly downed after one clash to a move that literally did basically nothing to the weaker Pokemon on its team team? It's not even that Sirfetch'd got a clean shot in, it somehow overpowered Mega Altaria's own move.

Unless the subs have a stronger narrative justification, nothing in what I've described is defensible and is embarrassing writing. For a battle like this, there is a high bar to meet to have Ash on the backfoot as he was and be so completely overpowered yet come out the victor in the way he did with Sirfetch'd. Just doesn't make sense

It's a similar story with the last match between Dracovish. Noivern has basically been portrayed to have minimal damage done to it, Dracovish has somehow become a massive tank out of nowhere after previously looking like a complete glass cannon in the Iris battle and just continues to be clowned on by Noivern until once again, it somehow overpowers Noivern in the final clash and ends up taking it down.

There's no defensible writing here. I could maybe accept the bond between Sirfetch'd and Noivern allowed for Sirfetch'd to win his battle if this battle wasn't in this context with Drasna with how the battle had been going earlier in one of the most important battles Ash will have in the PWC.

There's no comparison between this battle with Ramos and Frogadier. The context is completely different, the narrative backbone is not only strong, but also completely justifiable for the battle and what was built-up.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Wasn't the topic about battles where Ash takes alot of punishment, then wins with a few hits?

And I don't have a problem with the Ramos battle, I actually agree with you on this. But today's battle was the same: There was a 2 episode built up for Meteor Assault and Dragon Rush. Drasna dominated the entire battle, but as soon as Ash was able to hit her, he won.

Also, other than the scene between Dracovish and Altaria(which Ash took advantage of), the battle felt way more serious and intense than usual. If this wasn't the series' anniverssary I would've even expected Ash to lose.
I think the thing is that for these types of fight to work, they need some feeling of a realization or just something to make the quick turnaround feel satisfactory
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
This was a horrible battle. Bad pacing, too much of Ash's Pokemon tanking hits and dealling little in return, and Sirfetch'd STILL can't get a clean win. Dracovish at least got a win, but what is the writers problem with Sirfetch'd? You can't even complain about Lucario here, who doesn't even deserve the hate he gets. This was technically a tie for Sirfetch'd. Still can't get a clean win. Its horrible. Ash still wins though and now he's ranked #9.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Yeah having watched this subbed, I dunno guys I didn’t think it was that bad? I feel like making Dracovish and SirFetched the emotional core of the battle really helped propped it up more because it made me more invested even if the animation and choreography wasn’t aces.

Seriously that coregraphy where the Pokémon felt like they were moving through molasses is not a new issue with JN Battles nothing ever feels fast or fluid and it’s getting tiresome but honestly I was able to get into it despite that. I liked seeing Drasna dominate, she’s such a great character in this, both fun and intimidating and yeah I wish Ash was able to get in and do more damage before getting those wins but. Idk I liked it, definitely should’ve been more well constructed for an E4 episode though. probably a 6.5/10 overall. I think going in with the low expectations these forums set up for me probably helped
 
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masdog

What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
Now that I've seen the better subs, I really don't get the hate for this episode. The battle definitely had some pacing and choreography issues, but overall, it wasn't as bad as this thread makes it out to be. The dialog fills in a lot of the gaps, and the end result seems logical.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Now that I've seen the better subs, I really don't get the hate for this episode. The battle definitely had some pacing and choreography issues, but overall, it wasn't as bad as this thread makes it out to be. The dialog fills in a lot of the gaps, and the end result seems logical.

Agreed, both of his pokemon did incur damage to their opponents, and more than 1 hit on them.

I will admit that mega altaria suddenly dropping to Meteor Assault could be seen as weird, but I honestly think Drasna underestimated that moves power, after all Noivern got up it's wings to block it, and we know that her Altaria had cotten guard so she could've halted her mega altaria's charge and use that to defend itself, but because it didn't and just kept going in...well it got knocked out for that with Sirfetch'd following shortly after putting all it's energy in that move.

As for Dracovish vs Noivern, the end explosion of their attacks was what knocked Noivern out, there have been situations like that in the past, which usually end in a tie, but not this time.

I will admit the battle is still abit on the crazy side, but after watching it with good subs, I agree it's not as bad as most claim, but it could've been better.

There are definitely worse fights than this one, but i will not say it wasn't without it's flaws.
 
I liked seeing Ash, Clemont, and Bonnie together, and Dracovish is so adorable. I love when it goes nom. The battle started out great with Sirfetch’d vs Noivern, but it went downhill from there. Ash using Dragon Rush on a fairy type was a Seismic Toss on Dusclops and Elesa gym battle moment. And Sirfetch’d somehow one shots Altaria with 2+ defense and you know how bulky that thing is. Dracovish defeating Noivern made sense because Noivern had taken hits from Sirfetch’d+Noivern’s defense sucks but it still feels BS. Also huge missed opportunity not to have Chespin and Grookey interact.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
And Sirfetch’d somehow one shots Altaria with 2+ defense and you know how bulky that thing is.

Considering Sirfetch'd went down not long after, it clearly put all of it's remaining energy into that attack, and from the way Drasna was behaving at the time, she was being abit overconfident that her MA could take it, the smart thing to do would've been to use Cotten Guard a third time to not only max it's defense, but also do to Sirfetch'd what it did to Dracovish to stop it from attacking.

Seriously I got severe Elesa Tynamo vibes from that moment when they two charged each other, only this time it was the trainer not the pokemon that got overconfident.
 
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