UltraSun and UltraMoon effect on the anime

[mehmeh1]

Newborn has nothing to do with it IMO. Eevee was newborn Cyndaquil was a newborn Froakie was a newborn and Noibat was a newborn yet they've held their own weight within a series.

froakie wasn't a newborn though, he had been in the lab for quite some time and had multiple trainers, and TBH, noivern managing to damage zapdos was kinda BS, but it still was by attacking from behind.

 

[Akkipeddi]

My point, I started the comparison because people RARELY hate on Sawyer for being almost as a good as Ash (the XY fanboys and Lillie haters will say otherwise) yet he was given a out of jail free card. Yet if Lillie receives proper development, trains her Pokémon and take down the AF she's still unworthy of taking down the "all mighty" Ash.

Lillie haters? That's funny, cause almost everyone loves Lillie here, and even they can admit that Lillie beating Ash would be extremely poor writing, probably worse than Cameron (and even then, Cameron was idiotic as a character, but still an experienced trainer). And again, you weren't here during the XY series, but a lot of people hated how Sawyer got such a rapid boost in power, and a lot of people feared that he was actually going to beat Ash in the league. That one time he beat Ash was actually a relief for people, since it meant that Ash would beat him in the league.

In the end, if Lillie gets a massive boost and pushes Ash close, then that's fine, but outright beating Ash would be terrible, and will show the sad fact that the writers have reached another low.

 

[U.N. Owen]

Lillie Wins: Mary Sue accusations, "Ash deserved it" complaints, poor development complaints, spotlight hog complaints, petitioning, etc
Another Trainer Wins: see above

 

[AshxSatoshi]

Lillie haters? That's funny, cause almost everyone loves Lillie here, and even they can admit that Lillie beating Ash would be extremely poor writing, probably worse than Cameron (and even then, Cameron was idiotic as a character, but still an experienced trainer). And again, you weren't here during the XY series, but a lot of people hated how Sawyer got such a rapid boost in power, and a lot of people feared that he was actually going to beat Ash in the league. That one time he beat Ash was actually a relief for people, since it meant that Ash would beat him in the league.

In the end, if Lillie gets a massive boost and pushes Ash close, then that's fine, but outright beating Ash would be terrible, and will show the sad fact that the writers have reached another low.

Cameron was a novice and that was implied. Having Pokémon that's powerful doesn't mean he has exp as a trainer. He thought the Unova league was in Blackthorn. Lillie has plently who accuses of her being Mary Sue and doing nothing for the plot (I know ironic considering what we got the saga before). Even Alain was implied to be a novice yeah they gave him 3 TV movies worth of development but he's never entered a league, started out working for Prof Sycamore and only traveled one region.. that being Hoenn. He was still pretty new compared to Ash. So I don't why it's such a big deal of a trainer with less exprience beating Ash in this case.

Lillie Wins: Mary Sue accusations, "Ash deserved it" complaints, poor development complaints, spotlight hog complaints, petitioning, etc
Another Trainer Wins: see above

Either that or they'll be happy with a complete random beating him introduced 10 episodes before the league.

Err...Froakie was not a newborn.

Perhaps I should have elaborated. Realistically, unless Lillie starts hyper training with Shiron, then Shiron will not be able to catch up to Ash's team, because Ash is also training and his Pokémon are also progressing. It would be like trying to beat someone who is faster than you in a race when you start off already 15 steps behind.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Lillie's Shiron to defeat one of Ash's Alola Pokémon. But it is highly unlikely that, with Lillie's current training regimen, Shiron would be able to catch up to and defeat one of Ash's Pokémon.

Ash trains his Pokemon but it's typically to master a move. There's different type of training and Ash's more focused on mastering a new move than getting ACTUALLY stronger, sure they go hand and hand most of his training was Litten mastering Fire Fang and Rockruff learning that Rock move or whatever. This is all assuming Lillie doesn't capture more Pokemon. This show a good 100 episodes or so before ending; so we don't know how Lillie will end up training her Pokemon. Just like all those other "newborns" became good battlers Snowy can also.

 

[ShadowForce720]

Cameron was a novice and that was implied. Having Pokémon that's powerful doesn't mean he has exp as a trainer. He thought the Unova league was in Blackthorn. Lillie has plently who accuses of her being Mary Sue and doing nothing for the plot (I know ironic considering what we got the saga before). Even Alain was implied to be a novice yeah they gave him 3 TV movies worth of development but he's never entered a league, started out working for Prof Sycamore and only traveled one region.. that being Hoenn. He was still pretty new compared to Ash. So I don't why it's such a big deal of a trainer with less exprience beating Ash in this case.

You can't really compare Alain's situation to Lillie's because you have to keep in mind that by the time we first saw Alain his Charmander was already a Charizard that could Mega Evolve and on top of that it was depicted as being extremely strong, which makes it obvious that while Alain didn't start collecting badges until later he wasn't really a rookie. As for Cameron it wasn't really implied at all that he was novice, what was being implied was that he wasn't competent, from what we've seen of him he could be a really good trainer and the only thing that's holding him back really is the fact that he's not competent.

Again why is it is so important that Lillie winds up being the one to beat Ash, I mean if you want a character that could beat Ash it makes a lot more sense for Gladion or even Kiawe to beat Ash.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

You can't really compare Alain's situation to Lillie's because you have to keep in mind that by the time we first saw Alain his Charmander was already a Charizard that could Mega Evolve and on top of that it was depicted as being extremely strong, which makes it obvious that while Alain didn't start collecting badges until later he wasn't really a rookie. As for Cameron it wasn't really implied at all that he was novice, what was being implied was that he wasn't competent, from what we've seen of him he could be a really good trainer and the only thing that's holding him back really is the fact that he's not competent.

Again why is it is so important that Lillie winds up being the one to beat Ash, I mean if you want a character that could beat Ash it makes a lot more sense for Gladion or even Kiawe to beat Ash.

Even so, Alain has never been in a official league is my point. Of course they were gonna give Alain a "good" Pokémon capable of Mega Evolution to rival Ash. My point is not matter how much off screen "development" Alain got, he was still a novice compared to Ash and had less exp than him. What makes you think Cameron wasn't a novice? He thought a full on full battle was with 5 Pokémon. Not competent is not the right words because it doesn't take skill to have common sense of the basics of battling. And what makes you think he was a good trainer? Putting Swanna against Pikachu? Ferrothorn against Pignite? It doesn't take competence to learn the basics of battling which makes Cameron a novice. Like I said having a good Pokemon doesnt equal a good trainer. Lillie doesn't have to beat Ash but the fact people are acting like she deserves hate if she does is ridiculous IMO.

 

[Satomine Night]

Cameron was a novice and that was implied. Having Pokémon that's powerful doesn't mean he has exp as a trainer. He thought the Unova league was in Blackthorn. Lillie has plently who accuses of her being Mary Sue and doing nothing for the plot (I know ironic considering what we got the saga before). Even Alain was implied to be a novice yeah they gave him 3 TV movies worth of development but he's never entered a league, started out working for Prof Sycamore and only traveled one region.. that being Hoenn. He was still pretty new compared to Ash. So I don't why it's such a big deal of a trainer with less exprience beating Ash in this case.

What? Alain was not a novice, nor was he ever implied to be. If anything, he was implied to be more experienced than Ash. At the very least, he was as experienced as Ash. Just because he had never competed in a league and only traveled two regions (Kalos and Hoenn) doesn't mean he's a novice. He raised his Charizard from a Charmander, to the point where it was able to hold its own against Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. He was shown to have been Professor Sycamore's assistant in the past, and he had been working for Lysandre for awhile.

Why do some people think it's a big deal for a novice Trainer to defeat Ash? Because Ash is not a novice Trainer anymore. He has six regions' worth of experience under his belt, so it stands to reason that he should not easily defeated by a novice. IMO, Ash's only major weakness is that he often battles with a team of inexperienced Pokémon (at least, they are inexperienced compared to him and to his Pikachu).

Ash trains his Pokemon but it's typically to master a move. There's different type of training and Ash's more focused on mastering a new move than getting ACTUALLY stronger, sure they go hand and hand most of his training was Litten mastering Fire Fang and Rockruff learning that Rock move or whatever. This is all assuming Lillie doesn't capture more Pokemon. This show a good 100 episodes or so before ending; so we don't know how Lillie will end up training her Pokemon. Just like all those other "newborns" became good battlers Snowy can also.

Ash also trains his Pokémon to get stronger in general and to practice their existing moves, not just to master a new move. He has always done that, in all series, both on screen and off screen. He has been shown training with Kiawe, and in SM30, he brought Shiron to his and his Pokémon's training grounds, implying that he does train his Pokémon frequently, just not always on screen.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

What? Alain was not a novice, nor was he ever implied to be. If anything, he was implied to be more experienced than Ash. At the very least, he was as experienced as Ash. Just because he had never competed in a league and only traveled two regions (Kalos and Hoenn) doesn't mean he's a novice. He raised his Charizard from a Charmeleon, to the point where it was able to hold its own against Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. He was shown to have been Professor Sycamore's assistant in the past, and he had been working for Lysandre for awhile.

Why do some people think it's a big deal for a novice Trainer to defeat Ash? Because Ash is not a novice Trainer anymore. He has six regions' worth of experience under his belt, so it stands to reason that he should not easily defeated by a novice. IMO, Ash's only major weakness is that he often battles with a team of inexperienced Pokémon (at least, they are inexperienced compared to him and to his Pikachu).


Ash also trains his Pokémon to get stronger in general and to practice their existing moves, not just to master a new move. He has always done that, in all series, both on screen and off screen. He has been shown training with Kiawe, and in SM30, he brought Shiron to his and his Pokémon's training grounds, implying that he does train his Pokémon frequently, just not always on screen.

Giving him an OP Charizard doesn't mean he's not a novice. He does not have as much exp than Ash. The series barely explained how his Charizard got as powerful as it is (however I would hope since thats basically the only Pokemon he DOES use it would be powerful). Despite his "acomplishments" he doesn't have much experience as much as Ash (mind you Ash has already taken out a Latios, Articuno and Brandons Regi's) so I don't see how taking on Primal Groudon and Kyogre means he's just as great as Ash. It does mean however they wanted to promote the new games. And off screen training means nothing IMO if it leads to nothing. Exactly my point, Ash has traveled 6 regions not his current Pokemon. Why should his current team be unstoppable just because their trainer is "seasoned"?

 

[Frozocrone]

His Pikachu should really be a challenge but the other Alolamon are fair game.

ANYWAY because Ash won't be in Ultra Sun (unless you send your Capachus and Greninja events over), I'm hoping that Lillie is a trainer in USM as implied by the poster and starts undergoing a radical change in the anime (by battling more and more, especially since Shiron seemed to show an interest in training once Ash mentioned that Lillie would be impressed).

 

[Zipper4242]

His Pikachu should really be a challenge but the other Alolamon are fair game.

ANYWAY because Ash won't be in Ultra Sun (unless you send your Capachus and Greninja events over), I'm hoping that Lillie is a trainer in USM as implied by the poster and starts undergoing a radical change in the anime (by battling more and more, especially since Shiron seemed to show an interest in training once Ash mentioned that Lillie would be impressed).

Remember that movie 20 capachu IS a USUM only promotion.

 

[Akkipeddi]

Giving him an OP Charizard doesn't mean he's not a novice. He does not have as much exp than Ash. The series barely explained how his Charizard got as powerful as it is (however I would hope since thats basically the only Pokemon he DOES use it would be powerful). Despite his "acomplishments" he doesn't have much experience as much as Ash (mind you Ash has already taken out a Latios, Articuno and Brandons Regi's) so I don't see how taking on Primal Groudon and Kyogre means he's just as great as Ash. It does mean however they wanted to promote the new games. And off screen training means nothing IMO if it leads to nothing. Exactly my point, Ash has traveled 6 regions not his current Pokemon. Why should his current team be unstoppable just because their trainer is "seasoned"?

Yeah they did show how his Charizard got that powerful. While he got his Charmander, he was only Sycamore's assistant. He was searching for Mega Stones, when he bumped into Lysandre. For the ownership of the stone, Alain fought Lysandre, and lost. Lysandre then tempted him to join him by giving him the Key Stone and Charizardite X. Due to this, Alain trained his Chameleon to Charizard, and has visibly been shown in the Mega Evolution series to have incredible feats. You say Ash has beaten Articuno and Brandon's Regis. Well Alain has beaten an Elite Four's ace, which actually trumps Ash's feats. And are you comparing Articuno and the Regis with the Primals? They're a completely different set of monsters. It doesn't matter that Alain hasn't competed in a league like Ash, but, he was visibly shown training and growing with his Charizard by beating Mega Evolution trainers, so he's actually more experienced than Ash.

In the end, both the trainer and Pokémon's experience matter. Given Ash's experience at this point, even every new region's Pokémon can be trained efficiently by him. In Lillie's case, not only is she a newbie, but so is her Vulpix. So let's say Ash has a Decidueye, and Lillie an Alolan Nintetales, despite both being from Alola, you'd still expect Decidueye to win because Ash as a trainer is more experienced than Lillie.

 

[Satomine Night]

Giving him an OP Charizard doesn't mean he's not a novice. He does not have as much exp than Ash. The series barely explained how his Charizard got as powerful as it is (however I would hope since thats basically the only Pokemon he DOES use it would be powerful). Despite his "acomplishments" he doesn't have much experience as much as Ash (mind you Ash has already taken out a Latios, Articuno and Brandons Regi's) so I don't see how taking on Primal Groudon and Kyogre means he's just as great as Ash. It does mean however they wanted to promote the new games. And off screen training means nothing IMO if it leads to nothing. Exactly my point, Ash has traveled 6 regions not his current Pokemon. Why should his current team be unstoppable just because their trainer is "seasoned"?

I never said Ash's current team should be unstoppable just because Ash is a seasoned Trainer. I was explaining why some people have a problem with Ash being defeated by a novice Trainer like Lillie. I also pointed out that Ash's major weakness is that he often battles with relatively inexperienced Pokémon. I acknowledged that it's possible for Ash to lose to a less experienced Trainer, because even though he is experienced, his Pokémon, by comparison, are not (the exception, of course, being Pikachu).

This discussion about Alain is off-topic, so I'll just say a few more things and then end it here (or take it to another thread): Where was it stated or implied that Alain was a novice? He wasn't gifted that Charizard; he raised it from a Charmander, and it was explained how Charizard got to be as strong as it is. Alain may not have defeated as many legendary Pokémon or traveled through as many regions as Ash has, but that does not mean he is not a more experienced Trainer than Ash, even if he gained his experience differently.

ANYWAY because Ash won't be in Ultra Sun (unless you send your Capachus and Greninja events over), I'm hoping that Lillie is a trainer in USM as implied by the poster and starts undergoing a radical change in the anime (by battling more and more, especially since Shiron seemed to show an interest in training once Ash mentioned that Lillie would be impressed).

I also hope Lillie starts training more seriously and progressing as a Trainer. She definitely has potential, and I want the writers to take advantage of the potential they instilled in her. Since our other two battlers (Ash and Kiawe) are experienced and thus don't have as much room to grow as Trainers, I would like to see Lillie be the one who grows leaps and bounds as a Trainer.

 

[Jangobadass]

I'm hoping that Lillie is a trainer in USM as implied by the poster and starts undergoing a radical change in the anime (by battling more and more, especially since Shiron seemed to show an interest in training once Ash mentioned that Lillie would be impressed).

Especially since Shiron is being implemented in USM...

 

[AshxSatoshi]

Yeah they did show how his Charizard got that powerful. While he got his Charmander, he was only Sycamore's assistant. He was searching for Mega Stones, when he bumped into Lysandre. For the ownership of the stone, Alain fought Lysandre, and lost. Lysandre then tempted him to join him by giving him the Key Stone and Charizardite X. Due to this, Alain trained his Chameleon to Charizard, and has visibly been shown in the Mega Evolution series to have incredible feats. You say Ash has beaten Articuno and Brandon's Regis. Well Alain has beaten an Elite Four's ace, which actually trumps Ash's feats. And are you comparing Articuno and the Regis with the Primals? They're a completely different set of monsters. It doesn't matter that Alain hasn't competed in a league like Ash, but, he was visibly shown training and growing with his Charizard by beating Mega Evolution trainers, so he's actually more experienced than Ash.

In the end, both the trainer and Pokémon's experience matter. Given Ash's experience at this point, even every new region's Pokémon can be trained efficiently by him. In Lillie's case, not only is she a newbie, but so is her Vulpix. So let's say Ash has a Decidueye, and Lillie an Alolan Nintetales, despite both being from Alola, you'd still expect Decidueye to win because Ash as a trainer is more experienced than Lillie.

You're giving Ash too much credit. Of course they're different Pokemon? However they are both legendries and the poster above implied that Alain taking on the weather duo means he's just as exprienced as Ash. Beating Mega Evolution trainers doesn't equal actually traveling and having to overcome gym battles, league and BF. We don't know what the skill levels of all the trainers Alain battled for sure. I'm pretty sure BF are about the Elite Four levels and considering Ash came close to beating Bertha and went head to head with Diantha that cancels Alain's win against Melva. The fact you think 3 ME specials equal to Ash's entire journey is funny.

I never said Ash's current team should be unstoppable just because Ash is a seasoned Trainer. I was explaining why some people have a problem with Ash being defeated by a novice Trainer like Lillie. I also pointed out that Ash's major weakness is that he often battles with relatively inexperienced Pokémon. I acknowledged that it's possible for Ash to lose to a less experienced Trainer, because even though he is experienced, his Pokémon, by comparison, are not (the exception, of course, being Pikachu).

This discussion about Alain is off-topic, so I'll just say a few more things and then end it here (or take it to another thread): Where was it stated or implied that Alain was a novice? He wasn't gifted that Charizard; he raised it from a Charmander, and it was explained how Charizard got to be as strong as it is. Alain may not have defeated as many legendary Pokémon or traveled through as many regions as Ash has, but that does not mean he is a more experienced Trainer than Ash, even if he gained his experience differently.


I also hope Lillie starts training more seriously and progressing as a Trainer. She definitely has potential, and I want the writers to take advantage of the potential they instilled in her. Since our other two battlers (Ash and Kiawe) are experienced and thus don't have as much room to grow as Trainers, I would like to see Lillie be the one who grows leaps and bounds as a Trainer.

Did you mean "but that does not mean he is not a more experienced Trainer than Ash"? If that's the case it does mean that. Like I said earlier 3 MES doesn't equal to Ash's entire journey. And when I meant Alain was "given" an OP Charizard I didn't mean literally. I meant he was given it by the writers, the same way people claim Dragonite was "given" to Iris. Wouldn't you say exprience is measured by how many Pokémon you've trained? How many accomplishments you achieved? And how many regions you traveled? Because Ash beats Alain in all those qualities. I can agree to disagree but I think claiming that Alain is just exprienced as Ash or even close is wrong IMO

 

[Akkipeddi]

You're giving Ash to much credit. Of course they're different Pokemon? However they are both legendries and the poster above implied that Alain beating taking on the weather duo means he's just as exprienced as Ash. Beating Mega Evolution trainers doesn't equal actually traveling and having to overcome gym battles, league and BF. We don't know what skill level the trainers of the trainers Alain was battling for sure. I'm pretty sure BF are about the Elite Four levels and considering Ash came close to beating Bertha and went head to head with Diantha that cancels Alain's win against Melva. The fact you think 3 ME specials equal to Ash's entire journey is funny.



Did you mean "but that does not mean he is not a more experienced Trainer than Ash"? If that's the case it does mean that. Like I said earlier 3 MES doesn't equal to Ash's entire journey. And when I meant Alain was "given" an OP Charizard I didn't mean literally. I meant he was given it by the writers, the same way people claim Dragonite was "given" to Iris. Wouldn't you say exprience is measured by how many Pokémon you've trained? How many accomplishments you achieved? And how many regions you traveled? Because Ash beats Alain in all those qualities. I can agree to disagree but I think claiming that Alain is just exprienced as Ash or even close is wrong IMO

BF = Elite Four is also really funny. So Pokémon like Corphish, Torkoal, Bulbasaur must be that level? BF are definitely strong, but not the same level as E4. And don't forget, MCX also was able to hold itself against Steven Mega Metagross as well. And lastly, before I end this topic since it's not relevant, there's a huge gap between a legendary like Articuno and the Regis vs Primals.

Anyway, I get the feeling that even if they make Lillie a full trainer, I don't see her with a full team of six. There's not many local Alolan Pokémon left for her to catch that could suit her, (and even Ash has to catch a couple more). I can see her showing more and more interest in battling, and shows signs of getting better and improving, but it'll probably only be the final episode of SM that I can see her saying officially that she wants to catch more Pokémon and become a full time trainer, as a way to mimick what she does at the end of the SM games. I honestly don't see her becoming a league competitor or anything (and we don't even know if there's going to be a league in Alola).

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Lillie will probably have 3-4 Pokemon at the very most important guessing.
I also think she'll decide to challenge gyms near the end of SM.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I think she will travel to Kanto with Ash like Iris and Cilan did.

 

[Jangobadass]

I think she will travel to Kanto with Ash like Iris and Cilan did.

Will she also almost immediately go to another region after being there for about half an hour?

 

[dman_dustin]

Maybe Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon will have an effect on this.

I just realized that outside of Totem Salazzle there was also something major they missed by leaving Akala Island. And of course that was the start of the Ultra Beast minor plot up until in the games you went to Aether Foundation and ran into Nihilego. The Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon trailer seems to indicate that there will be differences from Sun and Moon, such as Hau being with Hala when something comes out of the ultra wormhole, though that may have nothing to do with Sun and Moon games where Hala met with (Pheromosa/Buzzwole).

Maybe they left Akala island so that after whatever arc is going on and they want to progress the story they'll go back to it, maybe even throwing Totem Salazzle in the mix and then after that run into Professor Burnett, etc, etc, etc.

So I wonder if perhaps they won't be going to Ula'Ula yet but maybe they'll go back to Akala island, and maybe one of the reasons they quickly went back to Melemele island is for the whole Kanto arc for however long that will take.

 

[Lucario At Service]

Seems like Ash is going to get the 'Black Z-Ring' from USUM, as per the new poster.

[IMG139]https://www.serebii.net/anime/epiguide/sunmoon/poster.jpg[/IMG139]