Underrated Pokemon

[Sparkbeat]

How exactly does Hippowdon beat Scizor? Scizor can just set up Swords on it, Roost off EQ, then destroy it with a boosted Bullet Punch/Bug Bite.

It tanks a u-turn well, bullet punch does crap to it, it can whirlwind out sd sets.

 

[UbersSuck20]

Scizor can 2HKO Hippowdon with +2 Bug Bite, so if it's the last Pokemon on your opponent's team... yeah. And if the Hippo player is unlucky, something like a Keldeo can come in and not allow Hippo to use Slack Off, which becomes a problem if Spikes is on the field.
Scarf Thundurus-T would be a great partner for Hippo, because it can screw with Scizor and water-types. Otherwise, as I said in the overrated Pokemon thread, Hippo suits well on sandstall teams.

 

[Sparkbeat]

Scizor comes in on celebi. It sd's as you go into hippo. It bug bites, fails to ohko and you whirlwind. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that +2 bug bite 3hko's physically defensive hippo.

Thundy-T is a meh partner for hippo. Neither can switch into keldeo safely, they are both threatened by latias, latios, rotom-w, and mamoswine. Really the only thing hippo is helping Thundy-T against is Terrakion.

 

[Agonist]

That's only if you're running a Hippowdon with Whirlwind, and even then, it doesn't actually beat Scizor. And if it's the last Pokemon, Scizor destroys Hippowdon, while being able to heal itself at its own leisure.

 

[Sparkbeat]

That's only if you're running a Hippowdon with Whirlwind, and even then, it doesn't actually beat Scizor. And if it's the last Pokemon, Scizor destroys Hippowdon, while being able to heal itself at its own leisure.

Saying "If its the last Pokemon" is a really crummy reason lol... And pretty much every Hippo runs Whirlwind nowadays. I haven't seen Ice Fang in at least 2 months. Whirlwind just has much more utility than Ice Fang.

 

[OceanicLanturn]

And besides, the majority of the Scizor are banded, or IIRC. A Banded BP only 4HKOs Max Def/HP Hippo, and can 3HKO the same Scizor with EQ. The main thing that Hippo has over banded Scizor is the ability to use a recovery move. In a 1v1 situation, Hippo can beat Scizor with just Slack Off/Earthquake. Out of 1v1, a U-Turn doesn't really do much to Hippo, it also 4HKO. Hippo can even take a CC from Banded Terra and EQ it back.

Hippo works best with hazards IMO. You can constantly whirl stuff out, like an incoming Keldeo to a Scizor. Or a Latias to a Garchomp. Its definitely not the attacker like T-tar, but it can still work pretty well, especially with spikes and rocks.

 

[UbersSuck20]

^So basically sandstall. (Whirlwind + Spikes + SR + Sand Stream)

Another underrated Pokemon is Machamp, with that 130 Attack, STAB DynamicPunch, No Guard and coverage moves such as Ice Punch and Stone Edge, as well as priority in the form of Bullet Punch and the ability to beat Alakazam and other psychic-types bar Slowbro and Reuniclus(provided they run Psyshock) with Payback. Machamp works great as an attacking lead.

 

[Orithan]

^So basically sandstall. (Whirlwind + Spikes + SR + Sand Stream)

Another underrated Pokemon is Machamp, with that 130 Attack, STAB DynamicPunch, No Guard and coverage moves such as Ice Punch and Stone Edge, as well as priority in the form of Bullet Punch and the ability to beat Alakazam and other psychic-types bar Slowbro and Reuniclus(provided they run Psyshock) with Payback. Machamp works great as an attacking lead.

Problem: Machamp is outclassed by Conkledurr in almost every way except for having a No Guard Dynamic Punch. Conkledurr literally does anything else it does (except for maybe dent dragons because Machamp has Dual Chop at it's disposal and that Machamp is slightly faster) better thanks to having more Attack and Sheer Force. Priority Mach Punch and coverage? Conk has them and it can fire them off at a much higher power. What about it's bulk? Conkledurr does a better job at tanking special attacks and can hurt psychics back with its own Payback at greater power.
Simply, the only reason it is viable in OU (and in UU) is that it has a No Guard Dynamicpunch. Everywhere else, even in UU, it is outclassed by the likes of Heracross and Conkledurr.

 

[UbersSuck20]

^Have you ever used Machamp?

Machamp is not outclassed by Conkeldurr. The latter has 4 moveslot syndrome. Conkeldurr wants Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Ice Punch and Payback. If no Bulk Up, then Drain Punch doesn't hit hard enough unless Conkeldurr uses a Flame Orb, and I can't remember the last time I saw a status orb Conkeldurr set. So we'll consider a Bulk Up set. Conkeldurr absolutely needs priority, like Machamp(and by the way Machamp can finish off ghosts that have about 10-15% health left, something Conkeldurr could only dream of.). And now we have 1 slot left, and this is where 4MSS comes into play. If using Payback, Conkeldurr does jack **** to Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite and stuff like that. If Ice Punch, it has no answer to Jellicent and bulkier Psychic-types. And let's not forget Conkeldurr has counters that laugh in its face no matter what set it runs, such as SubCM Jirachi, Slowbro, Reuniclus, SubDisable Gengar unless the player predicts correctly, and Skarmory.
Machamp, however, doesn't need a status orb, and DynamicPunch means Machamp has no true counters(Machamp can beat even Reuniclus and Slowbro if the player is lucky.) Machamp can afford to use both Ice Punch and Payback, unlike Conkeldurr.

Machamp and Conkeldurr serve two different purposes. Machamp is meant to be an attacking lead, Conkeldurr is not. Conkeldurr is a wallbreaker if using a status orb and a late-game sweeper if using Bulk Up. Machamp's role in OU is to cause as much damage as possible in the early-game before going down. Attacking Lead Machamp synergizes well with any late-game cleaner, especially mixed Salamence.

And lolDualChopMachamp. Machamp has Ice Punch and many dragons are 4x weak to Ice.

 

[jireh the provider]

From my own experience in doubles, I find Shadow tag gothorita w/ eviolite to be a pain. Its hard for me to tell all of it, but my video tells it all. My team consists of every 100 based stat pokemon. and I nearly lost to it. Too bulky to kill! goshdarntoheck! With a perish song, you are trapped left to die

This is a video of mine using one in doubles.

 

[Ðew™]

OK, let's break this down piece by piece. Let me first say that machamp is, at best, slightly underrated. Nothing else in the higher tiers gets a 100% accurate damaging move that guarantees confusion and a stone edge that has 100% accuracy. Otherwise...yeah conk's better. (Also, please don't take this as a personal attack against you, I'm just writing an argument and debating like I've been taught. My intent is to spark friendly debate.)

Machamp is not outclassed by Conkeldurr. The latter has 4 moveslot syndrome. Conkeldurr wants Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Ice Punch and Payback. If no Bulk Up, then Drain Punch doesn't hit hard enough unless Conkeldurr uses a Flame Orb, and I can't remember the last time I saw a status orb Conkeldurr set. So we'll consider a Bulk Up set. Conkeldurr absolutely needs priority, like Machamp(and by the way Machamp can finish off ghosts that have about 10-15% health left, something Conkeldurr could only dream of.). And now we have 1 slot left, and this is where 4MSS comes into play. If using Payback, Conkeldurr does jack **** to Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite and stuff like that. If Ice Punch, it has no answer to Jellicent and bulkier Psychic-types. And let's not forget Conkeldurr has counters that laugh in its face no matter what set it runs, such as SubCM Jirachi, Slowbro, Reuniclus, SubDisable Gengar unless the player predicts correctly, and Skarmory.

...Machamp is outclassed by conk in more ways than it isn't. Conk is bulkier, it hits harder, and is the better user of priority. Also, the biggest cure for the 4 slot syndrome is team support. Even if it lacks necessary move, another team member fills in that void. Missing ice punch? Offensive donphan iirc ohkoes anything 4x weak to ice with ice shard. Missing payback? Zam isn't a problem if you have a hard hitting scarfer. You also say conk doesn't hit hard enough with drain punch in the absence of bulk up unless it's a guts variant. I'm gonna agree, somewhat, though conk's main role that I've seen is a late game sweeper, so the only time you might need power is predicting something to switch in that could inhibit your chances for sweeping with something else. Still, conk hits like a truck even without a boost. Even weakening a poke to the point where it's ko'd by something else makes the used drain punch useful. Next, you mean champ can finish off gengar...utility jellicent takes 5.45 - 6.69% from the standard attacking lead set of machamp. As for your argument that 4mss impedes it...are you saying machamp stands a better chance against any of those because it doesn't suffer from 4mss? If so, that's only slightly true because machamp still can't do much against them. Also, your argument is further made invalid because machamp can also run a bulk up set. You're comparing the bulk up set to machamp's lead set. Side by side, guts or sheer force is giving Conk more power, it's able to replenish health with drain punch, and it's getting way better coverage with mach punch than champ is with bullet punch. The only thing really that champ has, as previously mentioned, is 100% accurate dynamicpunch and stone edge. Otherwise, conk > champ any day.

Machamp, however, doesn't need a status orb, and DynamicPunch means Machamp has no true counters(Machamp can beat even Reuniclus and Slowbro if the player is lucky.) Machamp can afford to use both Ice Punch and Payback, unlike Conkeldurr.

So alakazam isn't a counter? Slowbro is more of a check and reuniclus is a definite counter. Also, as previously mentioned...yes conk can on an all out attacking guts set.

Machamp and Conkeldurr serve two different purposes. Machamp is meant to be an attacking lead, Conkeldurr is not. Conkeldurr is a wallbreaker if using a status orb and a late-game sweeper if using Bulk Up. Machamp's role in OU is to cause as much damage as possible in the early-game before going down. Attacking Lead Machamp synergizes well with any late-game cleaner, especially mixed Salamence.

And lolDualChopMachamp. Machamp has Ice Punch and many dragons are 4x weak to Ice.

Yet you've argued that champ outclasses conk because of 4mss and pretty much solely that even though you've talked about a single conkeldurr set. In my opinion, a wall breaker is more useful than something that just damages everything due to the fact that most people on the ladder use some form of crappy balance or occasional semistall. No lie, champ is better as a "5th gen lead" than conk; otherwise conk is better in more aspects than champ outclasses it.

 

[Agonist]

From my own experience in doubles, I find Shadow tag gothorita w/ eviolite to be a pain. Its hard for me to tell all of it, but my video tells it all. My team consists of every 100 based stat pokemon. and I nearly lost to it. Too bulky to kill! goshdarntoheck! With a perish song, you are trapped left to die

This is a video of mine using one in doubles.

No offense, but your team is crap. Using a bunch of high BST Pokemon doesn't mean that you're going to win, especially against someone who obviously had a strategy.

 

[UbersSuck20]

OK, let's break this down piece by piece. Let me first say that machamp is, at best, slightly underrated. Nothing else in the higher tiers gets a 100% accurate damaging move that guarantees confusion and a stone edge that has 100% accuracy. Otherwise...yeah conk's better. (Also, please don't take this as a personal attack against you, I'm just writing an argument and debating like I've been taught. My intent is to spark friendly debate.)

Even if it lacks necessary move, another team member fills in that void. Missing ice punch? Offensive donphan iirc ohkoes anything 4x weak to ice with ice shard.

When was the last time you saw an offensive Donphan?

Missing payback? Zam isn't a problem if you have a hard hitting scarfer.

I said bulkier Psychic-types. Does Zam have Reuniclus-like defenses? No. And Conkeldurr doesn't even need Payback if it wants to beat Alakazam and only Alakazam out of so many Psychics.

Next, you mean champ can finish off gengar...utility jellicent takes 5.45 - 6.69% from the standard attacking lead set of machamp.

This is what happens when I'm too lazy to do the calcs. And Conkeldurr can't really beat Gengar unless it predicts correctly.

As for your argument that 4mss impedes it...are you saying machamp stands a better chance against any of those because it doesn't suffer from 4mss? If so, that's only slightly true because machamp still can't do much against them.

Please explain how. Landorus-T can't wall Machamp because of Ice Punch, neither can Jellicent because of Payback and Lum Berry(248+ Atk Machamp Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 224-264 (55.58 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Conkeldurr gets walled by either Lando-T or Jellicent, depending of the move it has.

Side by side, guts or sheer force is giving Conk more power, it's able to replenish health with drain punch, and it's getting way better coverage with mach punch than champ is with bullet punch.

Sheer Force Conkeldurr = fail.

So alakazam isn't a counter?

Of course it isn't, go and read the definition of a counter. Psyshock doesn't OHKO neither Machamp nor Conkeldurr and both can destroy it with Payback or Ice Punch followed by priority.


Yet you've argued that champ outclasses conk because of 4mss and pretty much solely that even though you've talked about a single conkeldurr set. In my opinion, a wall breaker is more useful than something that just damages everything due to the fact that most people on the ladder use some form of crappy balance or occasional semistall. No lie, champ is better as a "5th gen lead" than conk; otherwise conk is better in more aspects than champ outclasses it.

I'm comparing both sets because they are the standard ones, and Bulk Up Machamp is completely outclassed by Bulk Up Conkeldurr, so that's why it's only mentioned in "Other Options" on Machamp's OU analysis. And one more thing, Machamp has better special bulk than Conkeldurr.
I'm not trying to make Machamp god-like or say that Machamp is better than Conkeldurr, I'm just pointing out the advantages it has over the monster with a big nose.

 

[jireh the provider]

No offense, but your team is crap. Using a bunch of high BST Pokemon doesn't mean that you're going to win, especially against someone who obviously had a strategy.

I know I know. But my set on the video is experimental. In all honesty, that is not really the reason why I use the 100 base pokemon. If memory recalls, I wasn't playing seriously at that time. I'm playing it just for fun. I just find them very cute (aesthetics matter too for me). It's just that I find my Opponent's Gothorita with shadow tag as a very potent wall/tank. And what I experienced there is rather scary. I'll be honest though. I thought that I'mm going to lose against my opponent.

I'm talking about the Gothorita if you need correction. I don't take it personally even if I should.

All I ask is not to be an Elitist jerkass on my observations.

I'm neither casual nor competitive in pokemon battles. I'm a semi competitive pokemon battler

 

[Ðew™]

I'm comparing both sets because they are the standard ones, and Bulk Up Machamp is completely outclassed by Bulk Up Conkeldurr, so that's why it's only mentioned in "Other Options" on Machamp's OU analysis. And one more thing, Machamp has better special bulk than Conkeldurr.
I'm not trying to make Machamp god-like or say that Machamp is better than Conkeldurr, I'm just pointing out the advantages it has over the monster with a big nose.

The landorus t thing: yeah i read that myself, so touche. I meant when compared to conk.

Sheer force: I'll give you that, I didn't put as much thought into that and for some reason I blanked about iron fist. Either way, iron fist does more damage.

Also, I'm not gonna feed continue the flame war as much as I could do so. In my defense, I didn't know the difference between check and counter. So, yeah, zam's more of a check then a counter.

As for offensive donphan: More often than not when donphan's used. I was talking about the offensive rapid spin set. Last month on smogon, the adamant set with 252 hp/252 attack/4 sp def was used 24.089%, so there's your answer.

 

[MetalSonic]

I like Azumarill a bit. OU of course. I mean, it only runs like one set which is CB. It could run others of course, but it's that powerful late game potential that's got it going on for the aquabunny. ^^ Plus its gotta nice shiny form and respectable defenses.

Don't see it TOO too much tho nowadays.

 

[M.Oreo]

i like to test rain attackers and water types(i even tried wailord once) and i find three that work pretty well in OU. feraligatr, crawdaunt, and ludicolo(rain dish) feraligatr's sd aqua jet set hits hard, although hard countered by reuniclus or dragons(ice punch or crunch. take your pick) crawdaunt is pretty hard to set up, but after one dd, he terrorizes everything, but that garbage def prevents a sweep(starmie and d nite clean up his mess) so hes a decent wallbreaker(unless mach punch conk, then i swtich to d nite) and offensive rain dish ludicolo is fun, but i can see why people wouldnt use it(low speed and average sp att, and that stallicolo set is way better even though it never works for me) but when people are expecting leech seed WHAM! so satisfying. but these three have their flaws, and i can see why they're not used in the wake of superior OU eqivalents(well, save crawdaunt, cause 160 bp waterfall hurts)

 

[UbersSuck20]

I like Azumarill a bit. OU of course. I mean, it only runs like one set which is CB. It could run others of course, but it's that powerful late game potential that's got it going on for the aquabunny. ^^ Plus its gotta nice shiny form and respectable defenses.

Don't see it TOO too much tho nowadays.

Azumarill was good back when Excadrill was OU. Nowadays it can be useful on a rain team but it suffers from that base 50 speed.

 

[MetalSonic]

Azumarill was good back when Excadrill was OU. Nowadays it can be useful on a rain team but it suffers from that base 50 speed.

Naah, I think Azumarill's pretty good nowadays to. Quite a few "big" threats such as Terrakion and Landorus are pretty susceptible to it.
50 Spe isn't all too bad since Aqua Jet makes up for it somewhat and its defenses help it get off anything else if it comes down to it. Usually you're using Azumarill for its selling point; powerful Aqua Jet.



plus its so nice and cute -w-

 

[KillerDraco]

Naah, I think Azumarill's pretty good nowadays to. Quite a few "big" threats such as Terrakion and Landorus are pretty susceptible to it.
50 Spe isn't all too bad since Aqua Jet makes up for it somewhat and its defenses help it get off anything else if it comes down to it. Usually you're using Azumarill for its selling point; powerful Aqua Jet.

Yeah but that's a pretty one-dimensional selling point. Huge Power Aqua Jets may hurt (even more so in the rain), but if the opponent resists, or absorbs water, then Azumarril's got problems. It may have some decent coverage moves but that 50 speed really holds it back when it's not using Aqua Jet.