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United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Cipher, Dec 15, 2012.

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  1. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    Because a gun is a weapon, it can kill and it seems every week, on average, there's a story about someone being killed because of a careless gun owner, or worse, a shooting by some lunatic.

    And I adamantly believe that simply giving your wallet to a mugger gives you a better chance of surviving that trying to fight back with your own gun. Know why? Because every police officer you would ask (and even John Walsh) will tell you that.
     
  2. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Does it not matter that guns are used far more often to stop crimes and save lives? Tragedy sells newspapers and they often exaggerate things. There are not any weekly shootings by lunatics and it's a big country. It's easy to find an incident of carelessness when you search millions of people.
    People are far more careless with cars. There are far more accidents involving swimming pools.
    Your beliefs would be wrong.
    As earlier links have shown, muggers can and do kill even if they get what they wanted, that people who are armed stand a better chance of successfully fighting back and not getting injured if they have a gun and the police also advice people to not let an assailant take you to a different location. As far as "every" police officer? That would be wrong. There was a police chief a few months back that advised people to protect themselves rather than wait for the police to show up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  3. TheFightingPikachu

    TheFightingPikachu Smashing!

    The Jeane Dixon effect. Just seriously injured a careless poster.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  4. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    You mean this?

    http://skepdic.com/dixon

    I fail to see how this particular issue applies. As the article states:

    The issue we're talking about does not involve a psychic - or even predictions by a political pundit if you want to stretch the point of what the Jean Dixon effect can cover - at all.

    LDS, here's a test. Take out your wallet and check to see how much cash is in it. Then write down a few things you could buy with that much cash.

    Then, ask yourself if any of those things are really worth defending in a gunfight and risking your life over.

    If you're willing to defend $50 with a gun, it's nothing more than greed, plain and simple. That $50 wouldn't even scratch the surface of the hospital bills you'd need if you were injured, or the therapy your family would have to undergo if you were killed.

    If someone points a gun at you and demands your wallet, let the guy have it. I can't promise he won't he still won't shoot, but I can promise you that he will if you try to use your own gun. So using logic, the first option is much safer.

    Name? Date? Location? I heard the news story of the police chief who was fired for going on Facebook with guns, threatening the President, and daring him to take them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  5. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Gun control groups and the media are "predicting" more shootings. They then stretch and distort definitions so they can claim they were right. For example. MAIG put out a "map" of "school shootings" from the last few months. They listed suicides that occurred outside of school hours, domestic disputes that happened in the parking lot, gang fights that started elsewhere and ended in front of the school, and even listed a case of self defense.

    Jokes on you. I don't have any cash in my wallet and rarely carry all that much anyway.

    Tell me how I can tell which mugger will take the wallet and leave and which mugger will shoot me to prevent me from calling the cops? Tell me which mugger won't decide to go to the address listed on my driver's license later to commit a little B&E? Tell me which mugger isn't really a rapist or psycho killer checking to see how much resistance I put up before they decide to move to the next step in their sick plan?

    Greed? Standing up against bullies is greed? Keeping something you worked hard for is greed? Are banks being greedy because they have guards? What's greedy is someone wanting to take something from someone else.

    And yet, I've posted any number of attempted muggins where the mugger fled rather than shoot, where the victim successfully fought back and wasn't injured, where the victim won against multiple attackers, etc.
    And again I ask.

    Does it not matter that guns are used far more often to stop crimes and save lives?

    Two separate locations.
    http://www.gopusa.com/freshink/2014...olice-chief-wants-citizens-to-arm-themselves/
    http://content.usatoday.com/communi...tells-residents-to-arm-themselves-amid-cuts/1

    And what person are you referring to?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  6. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    LDS, I'm tired of this.

    Here's some advice by sensible police:

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-should-i-do-in-a-mugging.htm

    Here's the important part:

    I looked up your links. The Police Chief of Detroit? Uh huh. He's a model cop, as is the rest of the force. (I'm being sarcastic. The cops in that city are worthless and the mob is running the place.)

    Then I read the other article, and looked up Judge Alfred Mackey. First of all, a judge is not a police officer. Then I found another article about him:

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/ashtabula_judge_says_people_ma.html

    Seems his jurisdiction is a powder keg where, again, the police are worthless.
     
  7. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    So I should only listen to the advice of the police you agree with?

    Maeder, are you aware of what "confirmation bias" is?

    And I still want to know whether or not the vast number of self defense cases with guns matter to you at all?
     
  8. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    No, they do not. They encourage violence.

    LDS, you just don't realize that your idea of justice only creates more injustice.

    You won't listen to people I agree with? Fine. Then please respect my right to not listen to the people YOU agree with.
     
  9. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Please explain the logic behind this? Are you seriously suggesting that people who defend themselves against an attacker are wrong to do so? If they hadn't been attacked, there would not be violence.

    I wasn't aware we were discussing justice? I thought we were discussing gun control. If a person committing a crime gets hurt by their intended victim, that is the fault of the person committing the crime. What is the "injustice" there?

    I never said I wasn't listening. I was pointing out your double standards. "Listen to the police, unless I don't agree with him."


    You have already exhibited a pattern of ignoring and disregarding things that you don't agree with.

    It's the worst case of confirmation bias I have ever seen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  10. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    So, you want criminals to be hurt? As in, an eye for an eye. With no due process? That sounds like vigilante justice IMOHO. Need I remind you, you've previously screamed about how a gun control law ignores the "innocent until proven guilty" clause of our Constitution, which I often doubt you've ever read.
     
  11. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    I said "if" a criminal gets hurt, it is their own fault for attacking someone.

    Edit: Explain how self defense encourages violence?

    So you are arguing that a mugger isn't a mugger unless it goes to court first?

    Self defense is not vigilante justice. Someone hunting down muggers is a vigilante. A person reacting to a mugging as it occurs, is not.


    Feel free to point out where I said "innocent until proven guilty." I have said that gun control laws make law-abiding citizens into criminals without the citizen having done anything. And feel free to point out where in the Constitution it says "innocent until proven guilty."


    Edit: The problem isn't guns. There are millions of gun owners that do not shoot people. Yes, a random mass shooting is bad. So is a forest fire. So are car accidents. So are drownings. No one is trying to ban matches. No one is trying to prevent people from owning cars. No one is banning people from getting in the water.

    Yes there are gun owners that aren't responsible people. There any number of people that are idiots that do stupid things that get people killed. By driving recklessly, by serving contaminated food, by throwing rocks off overpasses.

    As statistics have shown, law abiding citizens have stopped far more crimes, often without injuries to either party, than criminals have used guns to commit crimes. Guns enable the elderly, the weak, the outnumbered, to defend themselves (with far fewer injuries) successfully against criminals than any other type of weapon out there. When questioned, criminals have stated that the thought a firearm might be used against them was enough to make the criminal seek a different target.

    Crime rates continue to drop while gun ownership in the US rises. Accidental and intentional gun deaths continue to drop even as restrictive gun laws are removed.

    Time and time again, the predicted outcomes of the gun control groups has failed to occur. Florida is not awash in blood from the change in their concealed carry permit system. The expired gun ban from a decade ago did not result in more crimes with so called "assault weapons."

    At this time, the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Gun control groups continue to lie and rely on emotional events to push their agenda.

    http://gunowners.org/opnem01.htm

    http://reason.com/blog/2013/04/19/3-reasons-why-failed-gun-control-laws-wo


    You want to convince me that things would be better without guns? Do so without lying. Do so without "Think of the Children!" propaganda. Convince me that the millions of criminals who commit crimes without guns already, won't be encouraged to commit more crimes when they have more targets to choose from.

    Check this for a prime example of gun control people who don't have a clue.

    This link is suitable for work. Browse any other days at your own risk.

    Webcomic with a video link in the comments section to a gun control video.

    http://ftf-comics.com/?comic=assault-weapons-the-definition
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  12. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

  13. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    The webcomic was incidental. As said, there is a gun control video that demonstrates the lack of knowledge that many gun control types have. I also had other points listed in my post that you apparently don't have a response for.

    All you did was link back to your last post. It seems to be harder than you thought.

    Edit:

    So politicians pass a law that won't lower crime rates and now a lot of police officers may be refusing to enforce it.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/conn-police-refuse-to-enforce-new-gun-laws
    Edit:

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

    Civilians and returned soldiers help remove corrupt politicians from power in Athens, Tenn. They used firearms to do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  14. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    Sorry, this is the correct link:

    http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=1196

    My point was, webcomics aren't exactly reliable sources, as you can see. (Damn funny, yes, but a little short on fact.)


    Here's the Wikipedia entry on the Battle of Athens, which you linked to:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

    Read the Aftermath section. In fact, I'll quote it:

    End result of this insurrection where they "used guns to remove corrupt politicians from power"? Riots and inability by the new government to lead due to incompetence. In other words, failure. With the traditional political parties returning to power.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  15. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Except my link actually had the actual video it was referring to attached. That's a lot more reliable than a comic about a toy store.


    Removing part of the problem does not equal riots.

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

    Where is the incompetence?
    Edit:
    Sure, their political group did not last long. It didn't need to.

    edit: How would you remove this group from power? The sheriff had his armed deputies. They were attacking the GIs for daring to speak up. They had control of the ballet boxes and were saying that the results of every election favored them. The federal gov't was ignoring those that asked for oversight. What other option did they have?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  16. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    Taking webcomics as serious political commentary makes as much sense as saying that Mortal Kombat is an accurate martial arts documentary.

    It was still a failure. And by the way, LDS, the Battle of Athens took place in 1946. More recent attempts to defy the federal government fail miserably, even when you are a legitimately elected official with an armed force backing you up. I will give two well-known examples.

    There's this famous incident from 1957:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine

    When the U.S. Supreme Court issued its historic Brown v. Board of Education ruling forbidding school segregation, Governor Orval Faubus (the reason no-one names their sons "Orval" anymore these days) said "Over my dead body", and told the Arkansas National Guard to support the segregationist protestors and blockade the Central High School with armed guards.

    The President simply used one stroke of a pen to relieve him of his command of the National Guard, and as it turned out, they would not "protect their own", telling him and the segregationists to take a hike. Eisenhower then ordered the nine students given an armed escort by federal troops.

    Long story short, Faubus was daring the President to stop him. He was stopped.

    Here's a far more recent example from 2005.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teri_Schiavo

    Jeb Bush (who will never be President) sided with Teri Schiavo's idiot parents who thought it was possible to cure her, despite the diagnosis of numerous doctors that she had been rendered irreversibly brain dead. After fifteen years of legal battles, both her parents and Bush ran out of options with Judge Greer's order. But again, Bush wouldn't give up. An to the Second District Court of Appeals the following day, which resulted in an automatic stay under state law. While the stay was in effect, Florida Department of Law Enforcement personnel prepared to take custody of Terri and transfer her to a local hospital for reinsertion of the feeding tube.

    But Greer had enough. He ordered the appeal lifted and for all parties to stand down. When the possibility that refusal to heed this order may have resulted in a confrontation between the Pinellas Park Police Department and the FDLE agents, Bush did something unheard of for a Republican: he gave up. Despite enormous pressure from the political right.

    Long story short, LDS, in this country, the pen is mightier than the sword, especially when the highest ranking officials can use pens to authorize the use of the biggest and most powerful swords.

    And in this day and age, if those people in Athens had been an actual threat, the governor of Tennessee would have called in the Marines, and within an hour, the place would have been secured, with all members of the resistance in jail.
     
  17. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Any response to the VIDEO link the webcomic was referring to? Or do you plan on ignoring that?

    How so? They got what they wanted. Free and honest elections with the crooked removed from power.

    This would be the corrupt gov't ignoring the Rule of Law. And names fall out of favor all the time. You can't prove that this is why it's not a popular name.

    This is an example of the gov't squabbling with itself. Not an example of citizens combating a corrupt local gov't. Athens could not get the rest of the gov't to help.

    How nice of you to call people who hoped desparately for the daughter to recover idiots. There were people on both sides of the aisle who supported the parents. Why are you singling out Jeb Bush?

    I thought about making a response to all the biased crap in here but it's not relevant. Schiavo was not a case of people fighting the gov't in any form. It was a case of parents who wanted to care for their daughter vs a spouse who had moved on and was in a relationship with someone else. And this was also a case of parts of the gov't arguing with other parts of the gov't. Both political groups were involved on both sides. There were disability groups involved, right to die groups and other groups. This wasn't a Dem vs Rep issue.


    If the pen is mightier than the sword, why do they need swords?

    Except the governor did call the NG. Then decided not to use them.

    So you think that instead of addressing the gov't corruption, the correct option would have been to jail them all?
     
  18. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    No sympathy for her husband - you know, her legal next of kin - who was devastated by the fact that her parents were using technology to maintain her in a state that was pretty much a living corpse.

    She was in a vegetative state, LDS, as almost every expert said. Her body was alive, but her brain had been destroyed, rendering her at most a mockery of true life. You can't cure something like that. She stopped being Teri Schiavo after the accident, and what she was then... Her parents were in denial and simply couldn't face reality.

    And please don't say it "was not a political issue" because it was and we all know it.

    And again, I repeat, what happened in 1946 in Athens won't happen today.

    Edit: And as for corrupt elections, ever hear of Bleeding Kansas? It was one of the biggest and most obvious election scams in history. It didn't cause an armed resistance, but it was one major factor to something much bigger:

    The Civil War.

    An armed rebellion against the central government which failed miserably.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  19. LDSman

    LDSman Banned

    Not all that much. He could have let the parents take care of her.

    Then why not let her parents take care of her? Her brain was deteriating. Schiavo was gone. There wasn't enough left of her brain to hold a personality.

    It was a complex issue.

    I would hope that the gov't wouldn't ignore rampant voter fraud.

    Yeah it did.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas#Open_violence

    People were fighting over this.

    The proslavery groups committed voter fraud to get their people elected and the antislavery people fought back. The Kansas gov't was illegitimate but federally recognized.
    And it only took 4 years to fail.

    Edit:

    Any chance you plan to respond to the other points raised in my other posts? Or are you planning on ignoring things you can't refute again?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  20. Maedar

    Maedar Banned

    You aren't married, I take it.

    He loved his wife, LDS, and the fact that her parents were refusing to let her be laid to rest...

    Just ask Spock. I would consider such a thing blasphemy.

    And it caused more deaths than all wars the U.S. has been involved in combined. It wasn't a good idea on the South's part.
     
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