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United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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Byzantine

Well-Known Member
Actually you can look at what happens with such attacks and find that they end up supporting the insurgency. As it becomes a rallying point, not to mention you need multiple people to launch a nuke, and many in the army, especially those that handle the nukes would more than likely revolt and take their nukes with them. Even launching one at their own people would more than likely lead to several nuke sites falling into the insurgency hands, and leading the rest of the world to not only support the insurgency but actively contribute forces to destroy the tyrannical government. We see this in Syria today with everyone drawing the "Red Line" when it comes to WMDs.

In a hypothetical situation where the government is trying to take tyrannical control of the country the army HAS to support them. If they don't then the entire scenario is moot, because it doesn't matter if there is a 2nd amendment when the military doesn't do as told either.

The US isn't Syria. We are talking about smuggling in some old, low grade Russian nukes. We are talking about a missile or bomb, virtually immobile except during deployment or by a train. Further, US nuclear supplies are very heavily guarded, if there comes a time when they are used against citizens, they aren't going to be able to get their hands on anything serious, and that still doesn't say why we would possibly need the second amendment, since it is rather obviously illegal to posses nukes or other WMD.

If the US falls and the military goes with them there is absolutely nothing the rest of the world could do short of starting a nuclear war. The US has the most ridiculously outsized and overspent military in the world, and we have a hardware to back that up.

Note: One thing about this, personally I don't think gun control would help much, some, but not very much. I just don't see the rationale for keeping guns so easily avaliable that someone who is obviously insane can get several of them. The amendment itself was written in a very odd way, it doesn't say that "The American public is free to have any weapons they so choose." or "The government will make no attempt to stop the manufacture and sale of weapons to and by citizens". Instead it is worded very vaguely, as if the people writing it didn't really know what they meant.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
In a hypothetical situation where the government is trying to take tyrannical control of the country the army HAS to support them. If they don't then the entire scenario is moot, because it doesn't matter if there is a 2nd amendment when the military doesn't do as told either.

They do, as such the Government would need to playcate the army, specifically in not carrying out mass attacks against their own civilians, something that could turn the army against them. Again see Syria.

The US isn't Syria. We are talking about smuggling in some old, low grade Russian nukes. We are talking about a missile or bomb, virtually immobile except during deployment or by a train. Further, US nuclear supplies are very heavily guarded, if there comes a time when they are used against citizens, they aren't going to be able to get their hands on anything serious, and that still doesn't say why we would possibly need the second amendment, since it is rather obviously illegal to posses nukes or other WMD.

Again you assume everyone in the army would be fine with using nukes against their own civilians. Again as we see in Syria, when you get into a Civil War when the army is forced to engage in horrific attacks to put down a populous in revolt, there is mass defections largely equal to how deadly the attacks are. Having the Government nuke even one city, would more than likely have the army at several bases that house nukes switching sides, or disconnecting the nukes all together and remaining neutral.

If the US falls and the military goes with them there is absolutely nothing the rest of the world could do short of starting a nuclear war. The US has the most ridiculously outsized and overspent military in the world, and we have a hardware to back that up.

And yet such a army gets bogged down when it comes to foreign backed insurrections, not to mention we are talking about a Tyrannical Government, not a suicidal one, having the rest of the world cut off trade, or even pointing their warheads at the Government would logically be enough to cause them to back down.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
They do, as such the Government would need to playcate the army, specifically in not carrying out mass attacks against their own civilians, something that could turn the army against them. Again see Syria.



Again you assume everyone in the army would be fine with using nukes against their own civilians. Again as we see in Syria, when you get into a Civil War when the army is forced to engage in horrific attacks to put down a populous in revolt, there is mass defections largely equal to how deadly the attacks are. Having the Government nuke even one city, would more than likely have the army at several bases that house nukes switching sides, or disconnecting the nukes all together and remaining neutral.



And yet such a army gets bogged down when it comes to foreign backed insurrections, not to mention we are talking about a Tyrannical Government, not a suicidal one, having the rest of the world cut off trade, or even pointing their warheads at the Government would logically be enough to cause them to back down.

The government doesn't need to make it clear they launched the nukes. It is amazing how easy it would be for them to plant and detonate a nuke and make it look like the resistance did it - even if there was no resistance to do it. Then they simply say that the resistance killed them for not supporting them (the truth about that doesn't matter) and they have even more support from the "outrages citizens" and the military then they otherwise would have had. A civil war like this would be an information war, not a hardware war. All the guns in the world don't matter if they control the information, and that is a completely different amendment.
 

BigLutz

Banned
The government doesn't need to make it clear they launched the nukes. It is amazing how easy it would be for them to plant and detonate a nuke and make it look like the resistance did it - even if there was no resistance to do it. Then they simply say that the resistance killed them for not supporting them (the truth about that doesn't matter) and they have even more support from the "outrages citizens" and the military then they otherwise would have had. A civil war like this would be an information war, not a hardware war. All the guns in the world don't matter if they control the information, and that is a completely different amendment.

In which case you have acknowledged that the Government would not publicly use nukes on their own people to cause them to follow the Government out of fear that they will be next, thus making your argument rather moot all together doesn't it?
 

Tyrant Tar

Well-Known Member
How many citizens buy guns for the sole purpose to defend themselves against the possibility of the government going corrupt? It's rather strange to put so much bank on that when all of the justifications for gun purchases revolve around sport, hunting, and personal protection against thugs/animals but almost never a corrupt government.
 

BigLutz

Banned
How many citizens buy guns for the sole purpose to defend themselves against the possibility of the government going corrupt? It's rather strange to put so much bank on that when all of the justifications for gun purchases revolve around sport, hunting, and personal protection against thugs/animals but almost never a corrupt government.

Citizens can buy guns for many things, including for self protection against thugs, or the government. Again I point you back to the poll I posted this morning on what people believe the Second Amendment is for.
 

Xadium

Poliwhirl Enthusiast
You'd be surprised. The reason America is so gun-crazy is because of loons like that.
 

TheWatersGreatGuardian

Legendary Trainer
How many citizens buy guns for the sole purpose to defend themselves against the possibility of the government going corrupt? It's rather strange to put so much bank on that when all of the justifications for gun purchases revolve around sport, hunting, and personal protection against thugs/animals but almost never a corrupt government.

Well, since this recent craze about gun control started, is it a coincidence that gun sales have seen an increase? or that the waiting list to get lessons at my local gun ranges is now a month long?

This is just one story of the increases http://www.wtvm.com/story/19069246/gun-sales-increase-as-world-leaders-negotiate-strict-gun-laws. These are happening all over the country since Obama took aim at the second amendment. All I can say is he better not sign that ludicrous UN treaty. Obama can't have my guns, if he wants them, he will have to take them past the barrel, and I am 100% serious about that.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
Interesting PSA released by the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department that should get those that say "you do not need a gun for self defense" pissed

http://county.milwaukee.gov/ImageLi...iff/Audio/MilwaukeeCountySheriffsOffice-1.mp3

He is right, as tax revenues continue to remain down with the economy, all city services are being hit, including the police. That causes longer wait times where you are at the mercy of who ever is trying to get into your home. As such families need to start reconsidering their safety and not just relying on the police to instantly teleport to their location.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
Republicans try to straw man gun control laws to make it sound like that the government is going to take away people's guns, even though the law is to keep crazy people from getting laws. Well, more than half of republicans are insane to begin with, so I see why they're so defensive.
 

TheWatersGreatGuardian

Legendary Trainer
Republicans try to straw man gun control laws to make it sound like that the government is going to take away people's guns, even though the law is to keep crazy people from getting guns. Well, more than half of republicans are insane to begin with, so I see why they're so defensive.

Even though in recent instances like the tragic school shooting, the guns used where stolen from a legal owner. So yeah, gun laws wouldn't have stopped that, or even deterred it.

The rest of this post brings nothing to the argument but your hate of republicans, so I am not even going to bother with that.

btw, this is a little old, but one would think that the father of a victim of a school shooting would be for gun control right? Nope. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/xcibviewitem.asp?id=907
 
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BigLutz

Banned
Republicans try to straw man gun control laws to make it sound like that the government is going to take away people's guns, even though the law is to keep crazy people from getting laws. Well, more than half of republicans are insane to begin with, so I see why they're so defensive.

If that is the case then why not focus on mental health checks and not gun bans?
 

TheWatersGreatGuardian

Legendary Trainer
If that is the case then why not focus on mental health checks and not gun bans?
because mental health checks don't do anything to disarm civilians, which is what I believe this administration's ultimate goal behind gun control is.
 

darkjigglypuff

Borderline Troll
Goodness forbid we try to fix actual social issues that cause violence first, like the massive dropout rates in school or our terrible psychiatric system. Nope, we gotta DISARM DA PEOPLE OF DER ASSAULT WEPONS

There was a hearing yesterday in Conneticut. The legislature thought it would be a mostly anti-gun turnout. Guess what, though? The amount of pro-gun people showing up snuffed out the anti-gun crowd by a large margin, and guess what? They came from all walks of life, too. Male, female, white, black, asian, teachers, police, doctors, sports shooters, immigrants, you name it. Every one of them brought in unique perspective, but most had one ultimatium: You won't trample on my rights. Here's one of the highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYYgLzF6zU
 

WizardTrubbish

much more beastly
If that is the case then why not focus on mental health checks and not gun bans?
That's primarily what the administration is focusing on in terms of gun control.
because mental health checks don't do anything to disarm civilians, which is what I believe this administration's ultimate goal behind gun control is.
If that was the goal, don't you think Obama would do something that involved disarming civilians?
Even though in recent instances like the tragic school shooting, the guns used where stolen from a legal owner. So yeah, gun laws wouldn't have stopped that, or even deterred it.
So because the gun laws won't stop that particular instance, we shouldn't have any gun laws? Police don't stop all crime, why don't we just get rid of them?
 

BigLutz

Banned
That's primarily what the administration is focusing on in terms of gun control.

It is, but it is not what all Democrats are following such as Dianne Finestine's DOA Gun Bill.

If that was the goal, don't you think Obama would do something that involved disarming civilians?

Obama can read the political writing on the wall, no gun ban will pass.
 

TheWatersGreatGuardian

Legendary Trainer
It is, but it is not what all Democrats are following such as Dianne Finestine's DOA Gun Bill.



Obama can read the political writing on the wall, no gun ban will pass.
I got a bad feeling he will eventually just executive order one through
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
If that is the case then why not focus on mental health checks and not gun bans?

This is one of the few things I completely agree with you on. While I do think gun control is a good idea, focus on background and mental health first and foremost. A sane person does not go and kill dozens of innocent people for no reason.
 
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