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United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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Tyrant Tar

Well-Known Member
In incidents like the Aurora shooting, the victims are unlikely to get any decent counterattack in, and in all likelihood would probably make the situation worse.
In one-on-one incidents, it seems merely having a gun is often enough to scare off attacks.

Of course, both of those are essentially opposite extremes, and it's not wise to make a sweeping judgement based on just one of them.
 

BigLutz

Banned
In incidents like the Aurora shooting, the victims are unlikely to get any decent counterattack in, and in all likelihood would probably make the situation worse.
In one-on-one incidents, it seems merely having a gun is often enough to scare off attacks.

Of course, both of those are essentially opposite extremes, and it's not wise to make a sweeping judgement based on just one of them.

Umm actually they would, the shooting took place in a theater where the shooter was at the bottom and aiming up. Not only would any victim have the high ground to counter attack, but the chairs with their cushion and hard plastic backs would act as natural cover to stage such a counter attack.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
Is this a joke? Do you really think most civilians with guns have such poor aim or target practice? You don't think they have to go through extensive, or at least some sort of training before getting their license to own a gun? Also, you would like to have firepower monopolized in the hands of the military and law enforcement? What a genius idea if that is the case.

No. I think that when you are in a shootout you do NOT react like you would on a firing range, or even when hunting. Part of this difference in reaction is that your aim isn't as good as it might normally be, stress and chemical factors do matter. And this is assuming your hands stay steady, etc. I don't think it would honestly matter. If the government decided to take over the country through force you would not stand a chance, I don't care if you have a tank, you will lose, and you will lose in seconds, at best.

Umm actually they would, the shooting took place in a theater where the shooter was at the bottom and aiming up. Not only would any victim have the high ground to counter attack, but the chairs with their cushion and hard plastic backs would act as natural cover to stage such a counter attack.

Cover generally implies that a bullet wouldn't go right through it, which is certainly not the case here. Unless you mean visual cover, in which case he probably would have just shot even more wildly.

(ohh, and Tyrant, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. A lot of people seem to think that in these mass shooting incidents "If only X had had guns..." the trouble is it doesn't work like that, but they are effective if it is 1 on 1, or perhaps 2 or 3 (attackers), assuming they don't have weapons and can't surround you.)
 
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BigLutz

Banned
No. I think that when you are in a shootout you do NOT react like you would on a firing range, or even when hunting. Part of this difference in reaction is that your aim isn't as good as it might normally be, stress and chemical factors do matter. And this is assuming your hands stay steady, etc. I don't think it would honestly matter. If the government decided to take over the country through force you would not stand a chance, I don't care if you have a tank, you will lose, and you will lose in seconds, at best.

Yes because as the last 10 years have taught us, superior force can defeat any resistance force, oh wait...

Cover generally implies that a bullet wouldn't go right through it, which is certainly not the case here. Unless you mean visual cover, in which case he probably would have just shot even more wildly.

I would say it depends on the bullet, the range, etc etc, but either way having the chair between you and the shooter is atleast going to slow down the bullet. But as for visual cover, the man is already shooting wildly as people are scrambling to get out, having someone there to fire back may actually draw his fire away from the fleeing crowds. That is unless the return shooter does not take down the original shooter after the first few shots.

Tyrant Tar said:
In a darkened theater, where the shooter wore body armor and tossed tear gas everywhere? I don't think so.

First body armor is not the end all be all, it may stop you from dying, but it is still going to be a gut punch, if not knocking you completely out. Second, darkened or not, the muzzle flashes are going to give you a good idea of where the shooter is. Third unless the guy was sitting in the front row, or where the tear gas immediately landed, or has the slowest reaction time in the world, it is still going to take a crucial amount of seconds before it reaches him.
 
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No. I think that when you are in a shootout you do NOT react like you would on a firing range, or even when hunting. Part of this difference in reaction is that your aim isn't as good as it might normally be, stress and chemical factors do matter. And this is assuming your hands stay steady, etc. I don't think it would honestly matter.
Okay, think about it this way: You are in a theater and a lunatic starts shooting at people. Do you really want nobody except the lunatic to have a gun? No gun in the hands of a good person is safer in this situation than someone else besides the shooter having a gun? Have fun being a sitting duck.

If the government decided to take over the country through force you would not stand a chance, I don't care if you have a tank, you will lose, and you will lose in seconds, at best.
Wild assumption, taking into account the fact that there are at least 100 million gun owners vs. a few million (tops) government forces combined. Also adding the fact that the United States has such a large and varying landscape, and that the residents know their terrain the best, it would be very difficult for the government forces to take considerable and stable control of said areas. I doubt it's that easy to make choices on where to deploy the military and their resources to implement martial law or other means of control.
 

LDSman

Well-Known Member
The Aurora shooter did not have body armor. http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/22/fox-no-body-armor-for-aurora-theater-shooter/ It was some kind of heavy nylon.

The shooter intentionally picked a theater that was a "Gun-Free Zone" just so people wouldn't shoot back. He then surrendered to police instead of continuing to fight.

Interesting article.
http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

Study done that looks at 32 mass shootings and how they ended.

I also remember seeing something that said that many civilians are better shots than some police officers because the civilians spend their own money and time practising while the the police only committ the time needed to pass their range courses. Can't find that study though, so take that for what's its worth.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
An interesting thing I'd like to note about that article is that it doesn't state how many times civilians tried, and failed, to prevent a mass shooting (most likely because this data is much harder to find), and that at least half (I didn't count) of the ones stopped by civilians was through a tackle, rather than a gun. I will however give you that that article does show some rather nasty truths, and you probably have a point.

Golden: When someone brings a gun it is probably going to end badly for me regardless of if any civilians have one or not. I will certainly agree that if anyone is close enough trying to take down the shooter with any means may be the best scenario, but distance is important.

The trick is that if the government goes totalitarian on us they aren't going to care about civilian casualties. As Big Lutz brought up, insurgencies are a problem if you don't want to kill civilians. One of the defining things about a fully totalitarian government is they wouldn't care. Carpet bomb an entire city? Why not, it will be an excellent example to the others exactly how resistance is treated. The way to break someone isn't to kill them. It is to make it clear that if they try anything everyone they care for is going to die. Of course that does have a chance to backfire, but how often do governments think of that, compared to how often they disregard civilian lives?

Idsman: I wouldn't argue that, it makes sense in terms of on the shooting range, but my point is a real situation like this is not like the shooting range, people can have very different reactions to stress. Some probably will still be a very good shot. I worry about the ones who pull out a gun while panicking (yes, you may be trained not to do this, but if you are panicing how much of your training do you really remember, or care about?) The problem is it is impossible to know until it is already too late.
 

BigLutz

Banned
The trick is that if the government goes totalitarian on us they aren't going to care about civilian casualties. As Big Lutz brought up, insurgencies are a problem if you don't want to kill civilians. One of the defining things about a fully totalitarian government is they wouldn't care. Carpet bomb an entire city? Why not, it will be an excellent example to the others exactly how resistance is treated. The way to break someone isn't to kill them. It is to make it clear that if they try anything everyone they care for is going to die. Of course that does have a chance to backfire, but how often do governments think of that, compared to how often they disregard civilian lives?

The problem with that is that the U.S. Government as a Totalitarian Government would not engage in such heavy handed tactics, which gives the insurgency the edge. One of the key tactics of counter insurgency is to go in to places, secure them, and stay there, allow the people to feel safe and trusted. This strategy and others in COIN show how to properly deal with a insurgency. Going in and blowing up your own people, especially when you need said people in infrastructure to keep the economy going is pure utter stupidity on the part of the Totalitarian Government. It may work for a while if the Insurgency is relegated to only a small minority of the population ( See: Iraq 1992 ), but eventually death is not going to be a motivating factor to keep people in line ( See: Syria 2011 ). It also doesn't help that the Government is blowing up it's own resources, such as train lines, power plants, industrial plants, etc etc. At which point the Government is sabotaging itself more than the actual insurgency. Not to mention the whole "Remember Atlanta!" to randomly pick a city, makes a great rallying cry for a insurgent army, as we saw in Texas with the Alamo.
 

LDSman

Well-Known Member
The majority of the military wouldn't go for that anyway.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
The majority of the military wouldn't go for that anyway.

Correct. Hence the real reason we don't have to worry about a totalitarian dictatorship in the US, not really because citizens are armed, though that may help, but mostly because it would force the government to be too ruthless.

I would agree BigLutz, but never underestimate human stupidity, particularly the ability to willingly repeat the exact same mistake time and time again, on the principle "Its got to work this time!", the fact that our government is already going in circles is proof enough that assuming they are smart enough not to do that is giving them too much credit.

One of the best ways for the government to be a dictatorship in the US is for it to be one, and we never know. All you need is one person, or a group of people, behind the scenes making the real decisions while you let people have their silly little elections that decide absolutely nothing, as long as they don't know that, though... I think it is clear how easy people are to rile up over social issues, just use those as a smokescreen for your real agenda, and have the politicians that are elected "debate" that, since it is irrelevant to the grand scheme.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Correct. Hence the real reason we don't have to worry about a totalitarian dictatorship in the US, not really because citizens are armed, though that may help, but mostly because it would force the government to be too ruthless.

The thing is, even if the chances are remote, they still exist, which is why the 2nd Amendment will forever be needed.
 
In reality, shootouts aren't done by criminals.

Since it didn't seem this was addressed in the subsequent discussion, I figured I should ask a question. By "shootouts" it seems you mean "shootouts at schools, malls, places of worship, etc." But specifically in regard to schools, weren't some of the more prominent atrocities committed by people who were themselves minors? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Which means they couldn't have purchased the gun anyway!


That seems to be an interesting facet of the Newtown shooting. Didn't the guns belong to the shooter's mom? Which means gun restrictions, even good ones, wouldn't have stopped this incident.
 

BigLutz

Banned
you really think a couple of guns can stand up to tanks, aircraft, battleships[...]

lmao

Dunno, how well did our tanks, aircraft, and battleships do in Iraq in 2004 - 2007 during the height of the insurgency? By your logic we should have wiped the floor with them.
 

LDSman

Well-Known Member
you really think a couple of guns can stand up to tanks, aircraft, battleships[...]

lmao

All that equipment needs a live person to operate it and they have to come out of it at some point.
 

TheWatersGreatGuardian

Legendary Trainer
Dunno, how well did our tanks, aircraft, and battleships do in Iraq in 2004 - 2007 during the height of the insurgency? By your logic we should have wiped the floor with them.

Exactly. They didn't fight in a way where our superior technological power would be an overwhelming advantage. They fought dirty by hiding among civilians and things like that. Superior technological power does not always mean victory. The terrorists did just fine being a major problem for us with some outdated assault rifles, RPGs and some IEDs.
 

Vernikova

Champion
I'm all for more gun control.

And yes, the government would beat the civilians in a "war" or whatever you want to call it. I don't see why people would argue that but this is the sppf debate section I guess.
 

BigLutz

Banned
And yes, the government would beat the civilians in a "war" or whatever you want to call it. I don't see why people would argue that but this is the sppf debate section I guess.

Because the past 10 years have shown that superior force =/= absolute victory.
 
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