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Unpopular Opinions

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CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Ash-Greninja was one of the worst decisions of the series. The anime invented a special transformation that bordered on Gary-Stu character territory. I mean it was so contrived! Some Greninja long ago had this special power that made it better than all other Greninja and Ash's Greninja has the same power now! They should have just given him a Mega Stone, it would have made more sense.

This. The thing put me off the anime for most of the season. I didn't like how the power had gravitated towards Ash, like usual. Prophecies, powers, plot points and so on just seem to make a beeline for Ash. At least have them centred around a companion or something. The only instances that I can remember of a major plot point gravitating towards a companion were May and Manaphy in the Pokemon Ranger movie and Squishy.

Is it an unpopular opinion that Ash is Gary Stu/Black Hole Stu?
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Is it an unpopular opinion that Ash is Gary Stu/Black Hole Stu?

Well people are so averse to the usage of terms like "Stu/Sue" and "DEM" in general that complaining about them now has become just as bad.

I think XY Ash was a near-Stu. The only thing that stopped him from being an outright one was the Wulfric first match and his negative reaction, and losing to Alain in the finals.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Well people are so averse to the usage of terms like "Stu/Sue" and "DEM" in general that complaining about them now has become just as bad.

I think XY Ash was a near-Stu. The only thing that stopped him from being an outright one was the Wulfric first match and his negative reaction, and losing to Alain in the finals.

Well XY Ash was a Stu, but Alain wasn't, eh?
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Well people are so averse to the usage of terms like "Stu/Sue" and "DEM" in general that complaining about them now has become just as bad.

I think XY Ash was a near-Stu. The only thing that stopped him from being an outright one was the Wulfric first match and his negative reaction, and losing to Alain in the finals.

No, Ash winning the League he deserved to win would not have made him a stu lol
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
No, Ash winning the League he deserved to win would not have made him a stu lol

Yes, I completely agree with this. He was mature and competent, but he had his flaws and tough times, especially in the Ash-Greninja arc. I think he deserved to win the League. If anyone was a Stu, it was Alain.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Well XY Ash was a Stu, but Alain wasn't, eh?

Unless your definition of "Stu" = "overpowered", then Alain was not a Stu. He had noticeable character flaws - power obsession, isolating loved ones, gullible/naive, working for the enemy.

No, Ash winning the League he deserved to win would not have made him a stu lol

Why did Ash "deserve" to win the league? The only time I felt he deserved to win was in DP, and I know that wasn't possible since he had never even reached the semifinals till that point.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Unless your definition of "Stu" = "overpowered", then Alain was not a Stu. He had noticeable character flaws - power obsession, isolating loved ones, gullible/naive, working for the enemy.

I'd argue that despite Alain's flaws, nothing negative ever truly resulted from them. He still saved Chespie, got the girl, won the League and wasn't really blamed for anyone about anything. He had flaws, but unlike Ash's they were never dealt with or acknowledged by the other characters in-universe. (Now that I think on it, this may be an unpopular opinion in and of itself...maybe).
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Yes, I completely agree with this. He was mature and competent, but he had his flaws and tough times, especially in the Ash-Greninja arc. I think he deserved to win the League. If anyone was a Stu, it was Alain.

IMHO, XY Ash was more of a Gary Stu than other "incarnations" of Ash. He had fewer character flaws, and was genuinely admired by everyone around him, friends and rivals alike.

Alain was less of a Gary Stu. Even though he was a powerful Trainer (power alone doesn't make a Gary Stu), he was a lot more flawed of a character. Now Alain's Charizard, on the other hand... One could argue Charizard was a Gary Stu (or Mary Sue - it could be female, for all we know). It was all around nice, without many character flaws, and it just kept getting more and more powerful.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Why did Ash "deserve" to win the league? The only time I felt he deserved to win was in DP, and I know that wasn't possible since he had never even reached the semifinals till that point.

Im still not sure why you think Ash winning the League would've made him a sue though
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Unless your definition of "Stu" = "overpowered", then Alain was not a Stu. He had noticeable character flaws - power obsession, isolating loved ones, gullible/naive, working for the enemy.

His flaws were never recognised by the others and he was forgiven too easily for those. Powered through countless opponents with his God like Mega Charizard-X, Ash never beat him despite battling him multiple times. He was an OP Gary Stu in my opinion.

Why did Ash "deserve" to win the league? The only time I felt he deserved to win was in DP, and I know that wasn't possible since he had never even reached the semifinals till that point.

Ash obviously deserved to win more than Alain anyway. He never beat Alain before, and deserved to beat him once. There was a lot of build-up in the Ash-Greninja arc, it seemed like that would lead to achieving something very great. His maturity and competence in this series was at its peak, so he deserved to win it this time.
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
I'd argue that despite Alain's flaws, nothing negative ever truly resulted from them. He still saved Chespie, got the girl, won the League and wasn't really blamed for anyone about anything. He had flaws, but unlike Ash's they were never dealt with or acknowledged by the other characters in-universe. (Now that I think on it, this may be an unpopular opinion in and of itself...maybe).

No, people hate Alain for having a part in the TF arc and having it hand waived away.

I don't think he was a Stu, but I can understand why people might think that (certainly wasn't in the ME specials). He becomes more of a Stu in the main anime since he's all smiles after that glaring foreshadowing in ME4, not to mention the lack of accountability from TF stuff.

His flaws were never recognised by the others and he was forgiven too easily for those. Powered through countless opponents with his God like Mega Charizard-X, Ash never beat him despite battling him multiple times. He was an OP Gary Stu in my opinion.

By this logic Tierno never beat Ash despite battling him multiple times, XY Ash was a OP Gary Stu.

Being strong =/= being a stu (although admittedly, the two coincide more often than not).
 
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JCW18

Go, Explotaro!
I'd argue that despite Alain's flaws, nothing negative ever truly resulted from them. He still saved Chespie, got the girl, won the League and wasn't really blamed for anyone about anything. He had flaws, but unlike Ash's they were never dealt with or acknowledged by the other characters in-universe. (Now that I think on it, this may be an unpopular opinion in and of itself...maybe).

This. This right here. Especially with Alain never getting blamed or reprimanded for anything, even though he majorly contributed to the rise of Team Flare BY CAPTURING THE SAME ZYGARDE that Team Flare later uses! (And of course after the final battle, Z2 never brings up "oh hey, your that guy who gave me to Team Flare")

Of course no one is gonna bring that up, as Alain and his Charizard are basically worshipped as gods on this forum, so whatever.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
IMHO, XY Ash was more of a Gary Stu than other "incarnations" of Ash. He had fewer character flaws, and was genuinely admired by everyone around him, friends and rivals alike.

Alain was less of a Gary Stu. Even though he was a powerful Trainer (power alone doesn't make a Gary Stu), he was a lot more flawed of a character. Now Alain's Charizard, on the other hand... One could argue Charizard was a Gary Stu (or Mary Sue - it could be female, for all we know). It was all around nice, without many character flaws, and it just kept getting more and more powerful.
In that case, I will say you the same thing Epicocity said:
I'd argue that despite Alain's flaws, nothing negative ever truly resulted from them. He still saved Chespie, got the girl, won the League and wasn't really blamed for anyone about anything. He had flaws, but unlike Ash's they were never dealt with or acknowledged by the other characters in-universe. (Now that I think on it, this may be an unpopular opinion in and of itself...maybe).

Alain didn't have have to suffer much for his flaws. His flaws weren't recognised or dealt with like Ash's were, especially in the Ash-Greninja arc. Alain walked away with a lot of credit in the end which he didn't deserve. For me, he was an OP Gary Stu who ruined the end of XY.
 
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Soniman

Break the Limit
Neither Alan or Ash are stus.Ash has sue like qualities but misses the mark due to some key points, Alan was never a sue and the only reason people say this is because he wasn't burned at the steak for helping Lys us laughable
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I believe it is unpopular for the solely reason that plot points like heroic actions,powers,prophecies etc are overshadowed by the fact that he never wins a league for the most fans.

That often feels like a mere relegated token loss if it wasn't pushed as such a big one. It's like Serena being unmatchable in the showcases up until Aria, the fact it was the VERY FINAL match with the champ only mildly taints the fact she was absurdly invincible. Not to mention since it's the very last one it's too late for them to try improving in any way.

XY bugged me in this regard, while overdoing advantages for the heroes was a recurring problem with the show, XY felt one they really overdid it and the twerps were constantly winning automatically. There were only so many situations they felt challenged and handled with a struggle (and almost all of them were mostly just Ash handling them), otherwise they clean swept, had some DEM, or in rarer cases just failed. They were almost never taken out of their comfort zone, and when they were, something would always save them and make it easy anyway (though wait long enough to show they were completely useless if it hadn't) because 'Oh well, they tried, they're good and nice and all and that's all that matters'.

It also came at the expense of them being interesting in action. Serena always winning showcases and battles easily despite little training meant her methods were boring since she never had to advance past spamming her first strategy over and over. Her performances were all nearly identical, and it took till her very last battle for Braixen to gain a unique battle style beyond 'Dodge and Flamethrower'.

I like SM because even the cases the heroes are clean sweeping, it feels earned. Things keep switching around in fights and TR face offs and what not so they have to be methodical about it and even take a few blows back, with minimal times some random miracle does it all. It still feels like they stand a chance of losing if they aren't good enough, which makes it much easier to root for them.


Oh other unpopular opinion, I actually prefer games Flare over anime Flare. Games Flare mooks were at least funny, Anime Flare mooks were badly dressed weirdos you were actually MEANT to take seriously instead of their failure being the whole joke. Not to mention Lysandre in the games had at least a smidgen of grey morality and chemistry with the heroes. Anime Lysandre was turned into a standard manipulative sadistic nut the heroes could go 'Evil bad guy, I will beat you to prove you are wrong!'.

Alain felt like a method out of this, because as mentioned above, he was easier to develop. He was the pawn that could be easily forgiven by the heroes and not be held accountable for his actions. Easy black and white ending so they can avoid all the complex excess. It was far from the first time they did this either. Take shoehorning Team Rocket being behind Florges actions the whole time, or several other Pokemon like the Pangoro or Grumpig that were clearly antagonistic in their own right but were manipulated by a meaner villain so it could be forgotten about for a cop out ending.
 
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