Unpopular Opinions

[Navin]

This. This right here. Especially with Alain never getting blamed or reprimanded for anything, even though he majorly contributed to the rise of Team Flare BY CAPTURING THE SAME ZYGARDE that Team Flare later uses! (And of course after the final battle, Z2 never brings up "oh hey, your that guy who gave me to Team Flare") Of course no one is gonna bring that up, as Alain and his Charizard are basically worshipped as gods on this forum, so whatever.

I'd argue that despite Alain's flaws, nothing negative ever truly resulted from them. He still saved Chespie, got the girl, won the League and wasn't really blamed for anyone about anything. He had flaws, but unlike Ash's they were never dealt with or acknowledged by the other characters in-universe. (Now that I think on it, this may be an unpopular opinion in and of itself...maybe).

Well, Alain worked hard to gain the ME energy to save Chespie and make Manon smile (even if it led him down the wrong path). He redeemed himself by saving Kalos, alongside Ash and co. At the end, he asked for forgiveness from Manon, and acknowledged Ash to be the superior individual in every way that counted. He gave up his Mega/Key stones. It's not perfect, but it's at least something, for a kids show, that indicates he is starting over to live in a better way (like Ash).

Im still not sure why you think Ash winning the League would've made him a sue though

I didn't say just that. Winning the league on top of his presentation throughout XY would have made him a Stu. Not winning the league (and that Wulfric first battle + fallout) is what held him back from being one.

His flaws were never recognised by the others and he was forgiven too easily for those. Powered through countless opponents with his God like Mega Charizard-X, Ash never beat him despite battling him multiple times. He was an OP Gary Stu in my opinion.

See above.

Ash obviously deserved to win more than Alain anyway. He never beat Alain before, and deserved to beat him once. There was a lot of build-up in the Ash-Greninja arc, it seemed like that would lead to achieving something very great. His maturity and competence in this series was at its peak, so he deserved to win it this time.

He was just as mature and competent in DP. The A-G arc buildup was never meant for the frog to be the most powerful, but rather for the frog to be the savior of Kalos.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Paul is still the best normal trainer in the show.

 

[Soniman]

I didn't say just that. Winning the league on top of his presentation throughout XY would have made him a Stu. Not winning the league (and that Wulfric first battle + fallout) is what held him back from being one.

that still feels unfair how ash cant win his goal after 5 losses without getting the sue label regardless of how he was presented in xy

 

[Satomine Night]

In that case, I will say you the same thing Epicrocity said:


Alain's didn't have have to suffer much for his flaws. His flaws weren't recognised or dealt with like Ash's were, especially in the Ash-Greninja arc. Alain walked away with a lot of credit in the end which he didn't deserve. For me, he was an OP Gary Stu who ruined the end of XY.

I never said Alain wasn't a Gary Stu at all. I said he was less of a Gary Stu - meaning he was less of a Gary Stu than XY Ash. He was more flawed of a character, especially in the ME specials, where his actions indirectly led to Chespie falling into a coma. I was arguing against your apparent claim that XY Ash isn't a Gary Stu. Going by the literary definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, XY Ash kind of qualifies. Compared to previous "incarnations," XY Ash was overly idealized and his flaws were subdued.

I do agree that Alain was a bit of a Gary Stu. I also agree with Epicocity that, aside from Chespie's coma, nothing truly negative resulted from Alain's flaws or his actions, and no one really blamed him for what he did. But that doesn't make him an OP Gary Stu, and he didn't ruin the end of XY for me.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Well, Alain worked hard to gain the ME energy to save Chespie and make Manon smile (even if it led him down the wrong path). He redeemed himself by saving Kalos, alongside Ash and co. At the end, he asked for forgiveness from Manon, and acknowledged Ash to be the superior individual in every way that counted. He gave up his Mega/Key stones. It's not perfect, but it's at least something, for a kids show, that indicates he is starting over to live in a better way (like Ash).



I didn't say just that. Winning the league on top of his presentation throughout XY would have made him a Stu. Not winning the league (and that Wulfric first battle + fallout) is what held him back from being one.



See above.



He was just as mature and competent in DP. The A-G arc buildup was never meant for the frog to be the most powerful, but rather for the frog to be the savior of Kalos.

What are you talking about? Alain's flaws were never recognised, he was forgiven too easily for those. He didn't have to suffer for those. Alain was hopelessly punching the ground after realising that he was tricked, it was Ash's motivational speech, he realised that it is not worth to remember what happened in the past and to look forward to the present. It was Ash's credit, not Alain's. Ash helped to open Alain's eyes to the truth- and yet Alain walked away with a lot of credit which he never deserved.

And you are seriously saying that Alain's build up in the ME specials were for him to win the League while Ash and Greninja's weren't? So you're saying that it's fair that Ash never beat Alain at least once.

Ash's character flaws were dealt with in the Ash-Greninja arc while Alain's weren't- Alain didn't have to suffer much for it. He was an OP Gary Stu to me from all angles.

 

[Darthlord7]

That often feels like a mere relegated token loss if it wasn't pushed as such a big one. It's like Serena being unmatchable in the showcases up until Aria, the fact it was the VERY FINAL match with the champ only mildly taints the fact she was absurdly invincible. Not to mention since it's the very last one it's too late for them to try improving in any way.

XY bugged me in this regard, while overdoing advantages for the heroes was a recurring problem with the show, XY felt one they really overdid it and the twerps were constantly winning automatically. There were only so many situations they felt challenged and handled with a struggle (and almost all of them were mostly just Ash handling them), otherwise they clean swept, had some DEM, or in rarer cases just failed. They were almost never taken out of their comfort zone, and when they were, something would always save them and make it easy anyway (though wait long enough to show they were completely useless if it hadn't) because 'Oh well, they tried, they're good and nice and all and that's all that matters'.

It also came at the expense of them being interesting in action. Serena always winning showcases and battles easily despite little training meant her methods were boring since she never had to advance past spamming her first strategy over and over. Her performances were all nearly identical, and it took till her very last battle for Braixen to gain a unique battle style beyond 'Dodge and Flamethrower'.

I like SM because even the cases the heroes are clean sweeping, it feels earned. Things keep switching around in fights and TR face offs and what not so they have to be methodical about it and even take a few blows back, with minimal times some random miracle does it all. It still feels like they stand a chance of losing if they aren't good enough.

Your first paragraph actually reveals the whole truth.I couldn't agree more here.
Well the XY series spammed TR extremely too much like the DP series.Excluding Ash's defeats against Wulfric and Alain the series didn't really have much challenges for the twerps to deal with until the TF arc after the league,where every regional gym leader and two Champions participated in this.About Serena's perfomances after she found her resolve(her first defeat in the first contest) she rarely had trouble because of the lack of interesting rivals.Also perfomances was a downgraded version of contests and for me it was one of the most pointless goals.
About SM it is a bit early to make conclusions about this,but I really love how the anime treats the TRio thus far.

 

[Epicocity]

I never said Alain wasn't a Gary Stu at all. I said he was less of a Gary Stu - meaning he was less of a Gary Stu than XY Ash. He was more flawed of a character, especially in the ME specials, where his actions indirectly led to Chespie falling into a coma. I was arguing against your apparent claim that XY Ash isn't a Gary Stu. Going by the literary definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, XY Ash kind of qualifies. Compared to previous "incarnations," XY Ash was overly idealized and his flaws were subdued.

I do agree that Alain was a Gary Stu. I also agree with Epicocity that, aside from Chespie's coma, nothing truly negative resulted from Alain's flaws or his actions, and no one really blamed him for what he did. But that doesn't make him an OP Gary Stu.

Honestly, I think people overemphasize Ash's win-streak in XY. Consistently through the first half, Ash had to work hard to get better. He lost to Viola, lost a mock battle against Tierno, lost a Sky Battle, got wrecked by Diantha early on, consistently lost against Korrina and had to train up (if perhaps, not always on screen) in order to finally defeat her and only after that did he start consistently destroying those who either 1) fell behind him quickly (Tierno) or 2) were never at his level to begin with (Trevor). And then Alain came along and broke all of that win streak. And if he had really reached Stu levels, he would have won the Sky Relay as well with baby Noibat.

Add to the unpopular opinion: I've always found TRio funny, and I felt their performance in XYZ was less indicative of them growing weaker (as XYZ 14 speaks otherwise) and more of the XY gang simply outpacing them entirely.

 

[DatsRight]

I will admit I shouldn't jynx SM at such an early point in time, but still it says something it's handled things better than a lot of XY(Z) did in so little time.

Oh, concerning the TRio, as much as DP flanderized them (and the dub dialogue was awful), I think they had a lot of good limelight episodes there. Stuff like Jumping Rocket Ship were decent character analyses and Dustox and Cacnea's departures managed to be emotional. I also liked it played on them actually WINNING stuff like contests at this point, and even more so there actually being some sort of method and training to it like you'd expect from the protagonists (watch Noodles Roamin' Off and then Dressed For Jess Success; lovely Chekhovs Skills right there). It was a very good play on the TRio being less generic failure bad guys and more talented people who stubbornly stick to the wrong job.

XY redeemed them in this function too, especially in the TF arc and the showcases, though this only made it more unbelievable that Serena was undefeatable with basic methods since she had a rival that was actually demonstrating good experience.

Add to the unpopular opinion: I've always found TRio funny, and I felt their performance in XYZ was less indicative of them growing weaker (as XYZ 14 speaks otherwise) and more of the XY gang simply outpacing them entirely.

I would have believed that if not for Serena doing absolutely ZERO level grinding and using the exact same methods she tried and failed against them in earlier episodes. It was superficial development for her at best. Inkay getting thrashed by a finalist level Pikachu and Greninja was fine. Him and Gourgeist getting thrashed by a Braixen that had barely improved skills since failing against Meowth felt contrived (especially since even Pikachu would still struggle a little against them odd times while she would never even flinch). That along with her samey performances in the showcases gave the clear notion Serena was getting things dumbed down for her and being handed victory all the time to make her look better than she really was, especially if we look at the official battle where James was thrashing her until Eevee conveniently evolved and joined the invincible club.

It's not just that though. I liked TR's characters in XYZ but they were just plot interrupters 90% of the time, as mentioned before, characters to cut off or simplify the plot because the writers don't know how to finish it any better. Sometimes they would cut off real battles for stuff like this. They did the exact same thing nearly every episode, arguably even compared to AG and DP where they still felt they HAD to use them every episode. Since they didn't have this excuse anymore, and had even tried to make a compromise of them being comical and challenging beforehand, it was blatant lazy writing.

 

[Navin]

that still feels unfair how ash cant win his goal after 5 losses without getting the sue label regardless of how he was presented in xy

It's not unfair. If DP Ash won the league, he wouldn't have gotten the Stu label because he wasn't a Stu in that series. XY Ash was mature, macho, heroic, inspirational (literally everybody seemed to have admired him), had a fully evolved 'cool' team, owned the Chosen Amphibious One that gave him a special type of sync-evolution, didn't have much losses until the A-G arc, got the girl, etc.

What are you talking about? Alain's flaws were never recognised, he was forgiven too easily for those. He didn't have to suffer for those. Alain was hopelessly punching the ground after realising that he was tricked, it was Ash's motivational speech, he realised that it is not worth to remember what happened in the past and to look forward to the present. It was Ash's credit, not Alain's. Ash helped to open Alain's eyes to the truth- and yet Alain walked away with a lot of credit which he never deserved.

If anything, that just reinforces the notion that Ash was more of the Stu than Alain. Alain realized he was wrong, and made up for it by teaming up with Ash and co. and stopping Team Flare. They're not going to have him perish, or end up thrown in jail for his crimes. It's not that type of show. He clearly understood by the end he had a wrong approach to life, looked to others (mainly Ash) as the standard to which he should live, asked forgiveness to Manon, and gave up his main source of power (Mega/Key stones).

And you are seriously saying that Alain's build up in the ME specials were for him to win the League while Ash and Greninja's weren't? So you're saying that it's fair that Ash never beat Alain at least once.

I'd have preferred a draw or an interrupted match at the very end.

 

[Satomine Night]

Honestly, I think people overemphasize Ash's win-streak in XY. Consistently through the first half, Ash had to work hard to get better. He lost to Viola, lost a mock battle against Tierno, lost a Sky Battle, got wrecked by Diantha early on, consistently lost against Korrina and had to train up (if perhaps, not always on screen) in order to finally defeat her and only after that did he start consistently destroying those who either 1) fell behind him quickly (Tierno) or 2) were never at his level to begin with (Trevor). And then Alain came along and broke all of that win streak. And if he had really reached Stu levels, he would have won the Sky Relay as well with baby Noibat.

Actually, I was talking less about Ash's battle record and more about his actual character. Previous "incarnations" of Ash better displayed his character flaws (in part because previous series had at least one character who drew out those character flaws). In general, XY Ash was portrayed as an all around cool character, with very few temperamental outbursts, and whom everyone admired. He had quite a few Gary Stu personality traits, compared to other "incarnations" of Ash.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I never said Alain wasn't a Gary Stu at all. I said he was less of a Gary Stu - meaning he was less of a Gary Stu than XY Ash. He was more flawed of a character, especially in the ME specials, where his actions indirectly led to Chespie falling into a coma. I was arguing against your apparent claim that XY Ash isn't a Gary Stu. Going by the literary definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, XY Ash kind of qualifies. Compared to previous "incarnations," XY Ash was overly idealized and his flaws were subdued.

I do agree that Alain was a bit of a Gary Stu. I also agree with Epicocity that, aside from Chespie's coma, nothing truly negative resulted from Alain's flaws or his actions, and no one really blamed him for what he did. But that doesn't make him an OP Gary Stu, and he didn't ruin the end of XY for me.

In that case completely disagree with you. Ash's character flaws were dealt with in XY, especially in the Ash-Greninja arc. But Alain's flaws weren't, he was too easily forgiven for those and didn't have to suffer much. It was Ash's motivational speech which got Alain back to his senses in the Team Flare arc, as I have mentioned above, yet Alain did get credit for that. He hardly ever lost, pretty much won everytime until XY Ash who worked hard for his wins and also had his share of losses. No way I'd say that XY Ash was more of a Gary Stu than Alain, power wise or character wise.

 

[Epicocity]

Actually, I was talking less about Ash's battle record and more about his actual character. Previous "incarnations" of Ash better displayed his character flaws (in part because previous series had at least one character who drew out those character flaws). In general, XY Ash was portrayed as an all around cool character, with very few temperamental outbursts, and whom everyone admired. He had quite a few Gary Stu personality traits.

I could argue this all day, but won't (for sanity's sake) but suffice to say that I felt it had less to do with Ash himself and more who he was surrounded by. It's easy to be your best when people aren't constantly picking at your flaws, companions, rivals or otherwise.

 

[Soniman]

It's not unfair. If DP Ash won the league, he wouldn't have gotten the Stu label because he wasn't a Stu in that series. XY Ash was mature, macho, heroic, inspirational (literally everybody seemed to have admired him), had a fully evolved 'cool' team, owned the Chosen Amphibious One that gave him a special type of sync-evolution, didn't have much losses until the A-G arc, got the girl, etc.

That just set precedent for him to win. Sorry I very much disagree on this one, Ash winning his goal wouldn't have done anything but finally take his character a step further

If anything, that just reinforces the notion that Ash was more of the Stu than Alain. Alain realized he was wrong, and made up for it by teaming up with Ash and co. and stopping Team Flare.

Ash totally didn't have a six episode arc about acknowledging his flaws and working on them

I'd have preferred a draw or an interrupted match at the very end.

Both of those outcomes would've been worse. God at least Ash lost legitimately instead of using loop hole bs

 

[johno1995]

Unpopular opinion: May was Ash's best companion.

Unpopular opinion: Dawn was boring, especially right after having May, a coordinator traveling companion. She felt too repetitive even with a different personality (and the fact that she felt like Female-Ash didn't help her case much either).

Unpopular opinion: Misty was my least favorite female traveling companion in terms of both development and overall character.

Unpopular opinion: I preferred Iris over Cilan.

Unpopular opinion: I prefer Pokemon's comedic tone over its attempts to be more serious (ie. XYZ saga). When the show has a good balance of both funny and serious (AG, early DP/XY and the OS) is when I enjoy it the most.

Unpopular opinion: Ash-Greninja was one of the anime's biggest blunders and strangest storylines to ever come about.

 

[DatsRight]

I could argue this all day, but won't (for sanity's sake) but suffice to say that I felt it had less to do with Ash himself and more who he was surrounded by. It's easy to be your best when people aren't constantly picking at your flaws, companions, rivals or otherwise.

That itself is a big flaw on it's own. It also at times made the chemistry between them feel much more shallow than they wanted it to be. Serena's one argument with Ash made her relationship with him feel a bit lacking and even a bit delusional. She's THAT unused to flawed Ash. It might have worked if it came earlier and Serena was shown trying to see a fuller side with Ash but instead she once again got things as she wanted and the good Ash remained for the rest of the series.

Still XY could have done more things even in just a subtle sense. SM Ash has already lost his temper and argued a little. It's not needed to be key focus of the episode or totally serious development, it's just a bit of character they inject into him passively, thus he feels more 'human'.

Concerning the Snowbelle arc though, I thought Ash's 'flawed' development was underwhelming. There wasn't that big a change in his character displayed there, just his battles were a bit more of a power spamfest (which was hard to tell since so many battles already were). The nearest to an attitude problem arising was when he handed Serena his coat in a very mild case of rudeness that would be seen as something standard and harmless from an earlier more cocky Ash. And of course the argument which was treated as totally out of character. Yeah it was a bit nasty, but compared to the BSODs Ash has had in the past, or even some comical arguments, it was pretty tame and undeveloped.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Ash Greninja and Goodra are extremely overrated and as much as I liked Alan's Charizard it's pretty much overrated as well.

Speaking of Alan I loved his character in the mega evolution specials. I'm indifferent to his persona in the main series.

XY and XYZ are the worst series of the anime for me, minus some Serena focused episodes and the mega evolution specials.

I don't think BW, or at least BW season 1 is as bad as people make it out to be.

I prefer the way Iris' master type goal was handled over Misty's water type goal.

I felt that May was too good at contests when she first started out. I would have also liked to see her miss the second Grand festival she participated in by failing to get her 5th ribbon because of Harley and Team Rocket sabotaging her appeal round.

I watch for other characters and Pokémon besides Ash and his Pokémon.

 

[DatsRight]

I felt Harley and several other AG antagonists felt a bit lacking in the sense that they never almost never got a comeuppance besides not getting what they wanted. Not just in the sense of there being less catharsis in that, but that it, like with the XY 'pawn' antagonists, felt like a lacking closure.

Only TR did their usual butt monkey shtick and after a while you started to get a bit sick of them barging in to do it over and over (maybe this is why other later antagonists adopted the 'blasting off' comeuppance, is that the best the writers can think of?).

 

[Daniel31]

Charizard was plot hax'd and should have lost against Gary. What did he take steroids before the match? Charizard practically nuked Gary's entire team.

Yep, isn't it great when one of Ash's Pokémon can wreck half your team. Definitely brought back that memory when I seen Infernape do the same to Paul, although Infernape had Blaze and more determination on his behalf obviously.

I would have believed that if not for Serena doing absolutely ZERO level grinding and using the exact same methods she tried and failed against them in earlier episodes. It was superficial development for her at best. Inkay getting thrashed by a finalist level Pikachu and Greninja was fine. Him and Gourgeist getting thrashed by a Braixen that had barely improved skills since failing against Meowth felt contrived (especially since even Pikachu would still struggle a little against them odd times while she would never even flinch). That along with her samey performances in the showcases gave the clear notion Serena was getting things dumbed down for her and being handed victory all the time to make her look better than she really was.

Ya know, I'm starting to think that you're actually a closet Serena fan. I mean you seem to bring her and this up an awful lot.

I felt that May was too good at contests when she first started out.

May was overrated as a Coordinator in Hoenn (she had a lot of help from the writers and others). She shouldn't of even finished Top 8 or maybe even made it to her first Grand Festival, but she had to for story reasons obviously.

 

[Navin]

That just set precedent for him to win. Sorry I very much disagree on this one, Ash winning his goal wouldn't have done anything but finally take his character a step further

Ash winning the league, on top of his presentation throughout XY, would have made him a Stu. I don't get what you're not understanding here. XY Ash could have won the league and if he was portrayed more normally (having more flaws, not idealized), then he wouldn't have been considered a Stu at all (hence why I brought up the DP example). I will say it was a bit of a fresh air to see Ash treated generally this well after being thrown in the mud during BW.

Ash totally didn't have a six episode arc about acknowledging his flaws and working on them

I was talking about Ash being an inspiration for literally every character in XY.

Both of those outcomes would've been worse. God at least Ash lost legitimately instead of using loop hole bs

With the KL being a B-plot for the Flare climax anyway, I wouldn't have wanted Ash to make his first league victory...that. At the same time, it's rather silly Ash lost three times to Alain (A-G v MCX), and the Orange Shuriken was a massive BS tease.

 

[DatsRight]

Ya know, I'm starting to think that you're actually a closet Serena fan. I mean you seem to bring her and this up an awful lot.

I wouldn't be so frustrated by her execution if I didn't want to like her. Otherwise she'd just be another character I didn't like but who cares because she wasn't my taste anyway.