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Unpopular Pokemon opinions V2 (READ FIRST POST)

Vini310

Well-Known Member
Yes, it's the 4chan fangame.
I keep mentioning it because, to me, Pokémon Clover is the perfect example on how to do a difficult Pokémon game well, but to keep it short:
Even when the Exp. Share is activated, the game's difficulty don't gets trivialized, all because of a level cap system that drastically reduces the Pokémon's experience gain after it reaches a certain level if you don't have the right badge, meaning that getting overleveled is possible, but extremely difficult.
 

Divine Retribution

He is that guy.
Yes, it's the 4chan fangame.
I keep mentioning it because, to me, Pokémon Clover is the perfect example on how to do a difficult Pokémon game well, but to keep it short:
Even when the Exp. Share is activated, the game's difficulty don't gets trivialized, all because of a level cap system that drastically reduces the Pokémon's experience gain after it reaches a certain level if you don't have the right badge, meaning that getting overleveled is possible, but extremely difficult.
You're conflating grinding (or time-consuming mechanics) with difficulty. Using this logic we can deduce that a janitor sweeping floors for 8 hours is doing something more difficult than an aerospace engineer building a rocket for 6 hours. What you've described is a novel way to discourage overleveling, but introducing more grinding doesn't actually increase difficulty in a meaningful way. You still can overlevel, doing so just takes more time now. Time and difficulty are not the same thing.
 

Vini310

Well-Known Member
You're conflating grinding (or time-consuming mechanics) with difficulty. Using this logic we can deduce that a janitor sweeping floors for 8 hours is doing something more difficult than an aerospace engineer building a rocket for 6 hours. What you've described is a novel way to discourage overleveling, but introducing more grinding doesn't actually increase difficulty in a meaningful way. You still can overlevel, doing so just takes more time now. Time and difficulty are not the same thing.
It goes beyond the level cap, I focused on that because the main subject was the Exp. Share. As for the full version:
Pokémon Clover is harder because most Trainers, especially bosses like Gym Leaders and Rivals, use more well thought out, competitive-level teams, filled with coverage moves and an AI prone to switching Pokémon when the player is using one that ha a type advantage.
The entire point of the game is to use your entire team to their maximum extent. Since overleveling your starter so you can one-shot everything goes against that point, they introduced a level cap mechanic so the player thinks "I'll make my entire team battle ready, rather than just my starter", and the Exp. Share helps with grinding.
 

Dragalge

Custom title: If specified, this will replace the
The exp share is the least of worries for Pokemon. Levels aren't usually the means to the end in Pokemon anyway. You can even beat a lot of trainers in XY with wild Pokemon that were just caught lol.
 

Vascha

Trainer name: Nobody
It goes beyond the level cap, I focused on that because the main subject was the Exp. Share. As for the full version:
Pokémon Clover is harder because most Trainers, especially bosses like Gym Leaders and Rivals, use more well thought out, competitive-level teams, filled with coverage moves and an AI prone to switching Pokémon when the player is using one that ha a type advantage.
The entire point of the game is to use your entire team to their maximum extent. Since overleveling your starter so you can one-shot everything goes against that point, they introduced a level cap mechanic so the player thinks "I'll make my entire team battle ready, rather than just my starter", and the Exp. Share helps with grinding.
When the average player can beat the Elite 4 using UNDER-LEVELED pokemon, why complain about over-leveling ?

In BD, the highest level on my E4 team was 62 (after beating Cynthia), and the lowest was 56 (a bloody haunter at that...) and I have seen others with even lower level teams finish the main story-line. So I'm fairly sure the concept of over-leveling is moot, as EVs are just as important if not more so than actual levels.
(I regular use low level pokemon to take out the level 63 stuff in Grand Underground as well. I'm talking about stuff in the mid 20s and 39s KOing level 60+ pokemon....)

Though I cannot stand having the EXP share always on and applying to the entire team, it actually slows me up when I'm training pokemon. (Training, not leveling.)



As for myself.
Ditto grinds my gears. I love the pokemon because it is fun to use, but the overall reliance on ditto for breeding by the majority of players is annoying as hell.
I can do the same thing for most pokemon, faster and more efficiently using egg group chaining than using ditto, and typically have better results as well. So outside of the Genderless Mineral pokemon that have to be bred using ditto, I try not to use them. And I refuse to trade for them, and the chaining in BDSP to acquire good IV ones is ridiculous.
 

Vini310

Well-Known Member
The games are easy even without Exp. Share.
To fully elaborate on that: using Exp. Share as the end all be all for difficulty is just a shallow way of approaching difficulty design.
Pokémon games are easy because they were never designed to be challenging in the first place.
Removing the Exp. Share means nothing when you can overlevel a Pokémon with good stats and versatile moveset and blast your way through the game.
 
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Trillion

Well-Known Member
i didn't mind the battle frontier not being in oras. i didn't even like it in emerald. and these weren't emerald remakes anyway

it was messed up how they put the "battle frontier coming soon" sign in the game though, for those that did enjoy it. like why even mention it? seemed very trollish
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
I think they should replace Delibird's hidden ability the next chance they get. I get it was probably funny at first to give it two abilities that do the same thing but unless its going to get an evolution or a regional variant its probably beyond time to give it something that it can actually use. Make it a hail setter or give it Huge Power or give. Now I admit it would be probably be a challenge to code into the games but considering managed to change abilities before(e.g Gengar) it's surely doable.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I think they should replace Delibird's hidden ability the next chance they get. I get it was probably funny at first to give it two abilities that do the same thing but unless its going to get an evolution or a regional variant its probably beyond time to give it something that it can actually use. Make it a hail setter or give it Huge Power or give. Now I admit it would be probably be a challenge to code into the games but considering managed to change abilities before(e.g Gengar) it's surely doable.
Actually I think Vital Spirit should be replaced with Ice Body and Insomnia remains as its HA. I think Ice Body could fit Delibird mostly to tie into the Dex entries that mentions it helping those lost in the mountains especially the one that mentions Mt Everest.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
Actually I think Vital Spirit should be replaced with Ice Body and Insomnia remains as its HA. I think Ice Body could fit Delibird mostly to tie into the Dex entries that mentions it helping those lost in the mountains especially the one that mentions Mt Everest.

I don't mind them whether they replace insomnia or vital spirit for me either going is fine. Ice body could work and it would be better than the two abilities but personally given Delibirds rather limited stats (especially its lack of defence or special defence) means it probably won't get to benefit from the healing. I'd prefer it to either be something that boosts a stat or gives it something that only a few Pokemon can do.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Yeah, Delibird is far too frail to really benefit from Ice Body (which isn't that great of an ability to begin with, the healing is fairly minimal). If one were serious about buffing Delibird through replacing an ability I'd give it Prankster instead. Would still be really frail, but Prankster on moves like Tailwind, Aurora Veil, Spikes, Memento, and especially Destiny Bond can be quite decent.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Delibird is far too frail to really benefit from Ice Body (which isn't that great of an ability to begin with, the healing is fairly minimal). If one were serious about buffing Delibird through replacing an ability I'd give it Prankster instead. Would still be really frail, but Prankster on moves like Tailwind, Aurora Veil, Spikes, Memento, and especially Destiny Bond can be quite decent.

Now that is interesting idea. Like you say Delibird has a fairly decent status movepool. It can even technically work with the lore given that Delibird can in certain generations know bestow (and thus give a gift quickly).
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
Delibird was always meant to be the weak gimmick Pokemon as weird as part of that is.

It's signature move is so random, that's its unreliable.
If it worked like Pollen Puff, it would be good, but granted, it was introduced before double battling.

It's stats are exactly what a Sneasel would sneeze at. Sneasel before Weavile wasn't strong, but it made sense at least.

Sneasel has good Attack and Speed and can do something, but Delibird is weaker than Spinda, and only it's speed is, just okay.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
Delibird was always meant to be the weak gimmick Pokemon as weird as part of that is.

It's signature move is so random, that's its unreliable.
If it worked like Pollen Puff, it would be good, but granted, it was introduced before double battling.

It's stats are exactly what a Sneasel would sneeze at. Sneasel before Weavile wasn't strong, but it made sense at least.

Sneasel has good Attack and Speed and can do something, but Delibird is weaker than Spinda, and only it's speed is, just okay.

You're not wrong but even a gimmick Pokemon has potential to be made better. Kantonian Farfetch'd had similar stats (initially) and was also a bit of a gimmick but it got slightly stronger over time (even before its regional variant) including getting its own signature item, a useful hidden ability, better move options and even a stat boost in gen 7. While these didn't really make it competitive (in most cases) it did make it easier to use in-game. Delibird has new moves and 2 ok abilities (given it has 3 abilities but 2 are basically the same) but otherwise hasn't got much. Changing either Insomnia or Vital spirit into something new and more useful for it would at least give it something.
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
You're not wrong but even a gimmick Pokemon has potential to be made better. Kantonian Farfetch'd had similar stats (initially) and was also a bit of a gimmick but it got slightly stronger over time (even before its regional variant) including getting its own signature item, a useful hidden ability, better move options and even a stat boost in gen 7. While these didn't really make it competitive (in most cases) it did make it easier to use in-game. Delibird has new moves and 2 ok abilities (given it has 3 abilities but 2 are basically the same) but otherwise hasn't got much. Changing either Insomnia or Vital spirit into something new and more useful for it would at least give it something.
You have good gimmick Pokemon sure. For example, Cherrim makes a good Doubles partner, and isn't bad by itself either.

But then you have gimmicks that are not worth the cost like Present, which if it always dealt 120 base damage to your opponent and healed your allies by 80 base power, then it would be a good and reliable move. However, the low stats and, like you say, not-so-reliable abilities really hinders it.

In contrast, Smeargle has low stats, but can learn almost any move (a good gimmick), which can lead to really good set-ups. I would argue that you can set up good Baton Pass opportunities with Moody, but I don't know how competitive battling feels about it.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
You have good gimmick Pokemon sure. For example, Cherrim makes a good Doubles partner, and isn't bad by itself either.

But then you have gimmicks that are not worth the cost like Present, which if it always dealt 120 base damage to your opponent and healed your allies by 80 base power, then it would be a good and reliable move. However, the low stats and, like you say, not-so-reliable abilities really hinders it.

In contrast, Smeargle has low stats, but can learn almost any move (a good gimmick), which can lead to really good set-ups. I would argue that you can set up good Baton Pass opportunities with Moody, but I don't know how competitive battling feels about it.

Yeah I don't think present is worth making useful. Even Delibird has better options. I suppose they could give delibird a held item that makes it always an Ice type move and always do 120 BP damage but I'll admit it's unlikely as its rare at this point for them to introduce items for non-legendary Pokemon that aren't connected to a specific regional gimmick. Plus its not like its that odd to have a Pokemon with a signature move that isn't useful.

The one improvement they made to Delibird was in Sun and Moon which made Delibird an early encounter where its stats while still low are reasonable for the area. With a slightly better ability I think that's a fair niche. It's typing is fairly useful for dealing with early bug types and if they gave it a level up option like Ice Punch it could be quite useful for when you don't have many TM's to deal with early region birds. Ice types end up being quite late in most regions after all so while it would get replaced later on it still gives it a role.
 

Sαpphire

Johto Champion
It’s becoming really popular to ask for a Legends game set in Unova or Kalos lately in the wake of Legends: Arceus leaks. There are even people who come up with ideas for every region starting with Unova… and none for those before.

While I get where people are coming from, anything from Unova onward is the last thing I want out of a new Legends game in a few years. I just don’t have a single fiber in my body that cares about the original dragon myth in Unova, or the ancient war in Kalos. There’s just nothing about those regions that inspires any curiosity in me about their lore or history.

I would take a Legends game for Johto over those any day - a region that actually could use a more substantive look at its lore, a region that could use a deeper narrative, and a region that we haven’t seen in a longer time than any other. There’s no need to go back to places that are more recent and that had a lot more work put into crafting a story with lore and history, for better or worse. On top of that, Johto has by far the most explicit connections to Sinnoh, making for a much more natural sequel experience if they continue the Legends brand.

Maybe I’m just old and Johto-biased, but sometimes I also feel that newer fans neglect older regions.
 

PCN24454

Well-Known Member
It’s becoming really popular to ask for a Legends game set in Unova or Kalos lately in the wake of Legends: Arceus leaks. There are even people who come up with ideas for every region starting with Unova… and none for those before.

While I get where people are coming from, anything from Unova onward is the last thing I want out of a new Legends game in a few years. I just don’t have a single fiber in my body that cares about the original dragon myth in Unova, or the ancient war in Kalos. There’s just nothing about those regions that inspires any curiosity in me about their lore or history.

I would take a Legends game for Johto over those any day - a region that actually could use a more substantive look at its lore, a region that could use a deeper narrative, and a region that we haven’t seen in a longer time than any other. There’s no need to go back to places that are more recent and that had a lot more work put into crafting a story with lore and history, for better or worse. On top of that, Johto has by far the most explicit connections to Sinnoh, making for a much more natural sequel experience if they continue the Legends brand.

Maybe I’m just old and Johto-biased, but sometimes I also feel that newer fans neglect older regions.
How could they neglect the older regions when they still get focused on?

While I understand wanting a Johto game, it feels like confirmation bias to think that the older regions don’t get their due.
 
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