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Unpopular Pokemon opinions V2 (READ FIRST POST)

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Yeah and I remember struggling against Clair in GSC loads of times and one of the most frequent rebuttals is that there were Ice types in the Ice Path that could be trained in order to beat her Dragon types, which is true but it's annoying how people oversimplify that as if it's super easy to train a mid-Lv 20 Ice type to a respectable level when there aren't any good places to gain quick experience at that stage in the games and the leveling curve as a whole sucks big time. :[

And Ice types aren't as helpful against her Kingdra, which is only weak to Dragon in the originals.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
Not sure how popular or unpopular this is, but: The Paradise Protection Protocol is the best final boss the series has ever had.

I think it was hella dope that we ended up having to go up against an entire computer system, rather than a trainer or criminal leader. It was definitely an amazing twist and a fresh change of pace.
 

Dark_King25

Shillmon Defender
Charizard deserves more forms
 

KyogreThunder

Call of Fate
It irks me that from Generation VIII, moves like Draco Meteor, the Pledge moves, and the elemental variations of Hyper Beam don't require maximized friendship to be taught, as they felt a lot more rewarding in older games.
 

Mr.Fiend

Everything stinks
On the topic of Johto, playing through all the pre-XY games for retrospective purposes, I find GSC/HGSS's main campaign rather dull from a gameplay perspective. I had much more fun with Platinum's story than HeartGold even if the former is a little less feature heavy game in general. I find the Johto dex kind of dull to play around with (not many Gen 1 and 2 Pokemon strike out as fun to use due to how unoptomized they are in general), and don't get me started on how forgettable Team Rocket is in HeartGold is compared to Team Galactic in Platinum which just came out before. Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Cyrus are much more memorable boss fights compared to Proton (whose team I had to look up to remember what he used), Petrel, Adriana, and Archer.
Not to mention only 5 gen 4 evolutions being in the game (and the only reason why is because their move evolutions).
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
Not to mention only 5 gen 4 evolutions being in the game (and the only reason why is because their move evolutions).
Leafeon, Glaceon, and Magnezone (and Probopass post game) I can sort of see why they were left out of a HGSS since they were location based evolutions at the time. There was no point in creating the Ice Stone at that point since it’d only be used on one Pokémon and there’s no point there but Leafeon and the others could have used the existing Stones and it’d still make sense.
 

Lluc

Not a Very Well-Known Member
Leafeon, Glaceon, and Magnezone (and Probopass post game) I can sort of see why they were left out of a HGSS since they were location based evolutions at the time. There was no point in creating the Ice Stone at that point since it’d only be used on one Pokémon and there’s no point there but Leafeon and the others could have used the existing Stones and it’d still make sense.
They would eventually be open to the idea of updating old regions to accommodate for location-based evolutions in ORAS though even in HGSS they were already comfortable with changing up old maps from how they were in GSC. Viridian Forest, Seafoam Islands, and the Kanto Power Plant could have worked as places for Leafeon, Glaceon, and Magnezone & Probopass respectively (or even Ilex Forest, Ice Path, and uh, the Rocket Hideout maybe?)
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
They would eventually be open to the idea of updating old regions to accommodate for location-based evolutions in ORAS though even in HGSS they were already comfortable with changing up old maps from how they were in GSC. Viridian Forest, Seafoam Islands, and the Kanto Power Plant could have worked as places for Leafeon, Glaceon, and Magnezone & Probopass respectively (or even Ilex Forest, Ice Path, and uh, the Rocket Hideout maybe?)

This. HGSS was fairly open to changing up old areas, really more than any other remake. I don't think it would've been any trouble at all to add in one little rock to an appropriate area to allow them to evolve. They simply didn't want to. I can't excuse them for not doing that, it's pretty blatant they they intentionally wanted to be conservative when it came to cross gen evos. They've been relatively unwilling to make any changes to regional dexes aside from a handful of cross gen evos. Heck, I'm wondering if the only reason they bothered adding all of them to ORAS was because there was much fewer of them than there were for Kanto and Johto.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
This. HGSS was fairly open to changing up old areas, really more than any other remake. I don't think it would've been any trouble at all to add in one little rock to an appropriate area to allow them to evolve. They simply didn't want to. I can't excuse them for not doing that, it's pretty blatant they they intentionally wanted to be conservative when it came to cross gen evos. They've been relatively unwilling to make any changes to regional dexes aside from a handful of cross gen evos. Heck, I'm wondering if the only reason they bothered adding all of them to ORAS was because there was much fewer of them than there were for Kanto and Johto.

My guess is that is part of it but with Oras having megas it also made sense to buff some of the Pokemon that would fight them by giving them their evolutions. For example Roselia getting Roserade gives it a much better chance if it had to beat a mega. Also with Wally's starter being Ralts but Diantha having used a mega Gardevoir already it made sense to allow something like Gallade in so he could have a different Mega ace. The fact that the Ice and Ghost elite 4 benefited was probably useful mechanically given how limited their teams were and how strong the players would be.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
My guess is that is part of it but with Oras having megas it also made sense to buff some of the Pokemon that would fight them by giving them their evolutions. For example Roselia getting Roserade gives it a much better chance if it had to beat a mega. Also with Wally's starter being Ralts but Diantha having used a mega Gardevoir already it made sense to allow something like Gallade in so he could have a different Mega ace. The fact that the Ice and Ghost elite 4 benefited was probably useful mechanically given how limited their teams were and how strong the players would be.

Well if they really wanted to fix the problems with Ice and Ghost, the handful of cross gen evos were a bandaid on a bullet hole. No way they could have a remotely competent team when all you have in your dex is the Spheal and Snorunt lines for Ice and the Sableye, Shuppet, and Duskull lines (and Shedinja, but that's a gimmickmon). But nope, they don't want to bother adding in stuff like a Litwick or Vanillite from newer generations or even older gen stuff like Gastly and Lapras to the Hoenn Dex, presumably because MUH NUSTAHLJUH! I don't think they actually care that much about roster variety issues such as the lack of Ghost, Ice, and Dragon types for Phoebe, Glacia, and Drake to use. So I don't think you can really get around the notion that the remakes are being intentionally conservative. HGSS and ORAS were baby steps, but what they did wasn't nearly enough to fix the woeful distribution issues those earlier regions faced (especially for certain rarer types such as Ghost, Dragon, or Ice).
 
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Snewed119

Member
So I have quite a bit to say in this regard and some might be heated, this fanbase flip flops so much


-Gen 2 is overhated = Tbh the only valid issues I agree with are Pokemon Inaccessibility, gym leaders and the level curve, the other problems aren't just related to Johto, but Pokemon as a whole. And even then accessibilty is issue many games have as a whole



-Gen 2 isn't the only gen with bad learnsets, this was an issue in Gens 1, 3 and 4 as well. The fact this is never discusssed is baffling to me


-I love the Mareep Line, but they don't make GS just better games, thiis is stupid logic. They should be in Crystal yes, but I could use this argument for every game that uses version exclusives. One Pokemon doesn't discount other QoL or features added overall.



-In a way I'm glad Gamefreak has stopped making enhanced 3rd versios, because it always felt pointless to me for them to make dual versions, only to release a superior 3rd version that makes you not want to play those versions



-Other than story, what does Sun & Moon do better than USUM? In a world where people lose their minds over the slightest inconvenience or dislike story- gamplay ratio, if you want to enjoy the story watch cutscenes online, otherwise you're setting through unskippable railroading cutscenes.



-I'm not a fan of modern Pokemon designs from a gameplay perspective (Looks at Chein Pao)



-Gens 1-3 (Non P/S Split era) - aren't inheritely flawed because of a lack of P/S, it is simply a different set of rules and mechanics, even if P/S is better, I feel fan fixate WAY too much on Pokemon having STAB or typing



Every Gen has stupid designs, people need to stop this war on Gen 1 vs Gen 5 = bad designs



Gen 3 has argubly just as weak of a roster of Pokemon as Gen 2, if not almost


-BDSP are objectively the worst remakes, but tbh every Pokemon remake has faithfulness issues. BDSP just highlighted the worst cases of them
 
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PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
-BDSP are objectively the worst remakes, but tbh every Pokemon remake has faithfulness issues. BDSP just highlighted the worst cases of them

BDSP is the worst because it's painfully clear they shelled it out just to appeal to fans screaming about Gen 4 remakes.

In the end, we didn't get a Gen 4 remake. We got a Gen 4 remaster.
 

Codebox

Well-Known Member
So I have quite a bit to say in this regard and some might be heated, this fanbase flip flops so much


-Gen 2 is overhated = Tbh the only valid issues I agree with are Pokemon Inaccessibility, gym leaders and the level curve, the other problems aren't just related to Johto, but Pokemon as a whole. And even then accessibilty is issue many games have as a whole



-Gen 2 isn't the only gen with bad learnsets, this was an issue in Gens 1, 3 and 4 as well. The fact this is never discusssed is baffling to me


-I love the Mareep Line, but they don't make GS just better games, thiis is stupid logic. They should be in Crystal yes, but I could use this argument for every game that uses version exclusives. One Pokemon doesn't discount other QoL or features added overall.



-In a way I'm glad Gamefreak has stopped making enhanced 3rd versios, because it always felt pointless to me for them to make dual versions, only to release a superior 3rd version that makes you not want to play those versions



-Other than story, what does Sun & Moon do better than USUM? In a world where people lose their minds over the slightest inconvenience or dislike story- gamplay ratio, if you want to enjoy the story watch cutscenes online, otherwise you're setting through unskippable railroading cutscenes.



-I'm not a fan of modern Pokemon designs from a gameplay perspective (Looks at Chein Pao)



-Gens 1-3 (Non P/S Split era) - aren't inheritely flawed because of a lack of P/S, it is simply a different set of rules and mechanics, even if P/S is better, I feel fan fixate WAY too much on Pokemon having STAB or typing



Every Gen has stupid designs, people need to stop this war on Gen 1 vs Gen 5 = bad designs



Gen 3 has argubly just as weak of a roster of Pokemon as Gen 2, if not almost


-BDSP are objectively the worst remakes, but tbh every Pokemon remake has faithfulness issues. BDSP just highlighted the worst cases of them
What are your reasons for Gen 3 dex being bad? Also explain more about the Mareep and moveslot thing.
 

Lluc

Not a Very Well-Known Member
-Gen 2 is overhated = Tbh the only valid issues I agree with are Pokemon Inaccessibility, gym leaders and the level curve, the other problems aren't just related to Johto, but Pokemon as a whole. And even then accessibilty is issue many games have as a whole
The ironic thing about the level curve complaint being directed specifically at the Johto games is, when doing "no grind" playthroughs of every game before the modern EXP share, Lance was actually the champion with the smallest level advantage against my team in the gen 1~4 games (I'm leaving gen 5 out because of the rubber band effect it has with its exp). Every other champion had their Pokemon over 10 levels above mine while Lance's Pokemon were less than 10 levels above mine.

The other funny thing is (Yellow) Blue is one of the easiest champion to me and he had the largest level advantage against me (his Pokemon generally being 17~20 levels above mine). Meanwhile, N/Ghetsis had the smallest level advantage (so far, I haven't finished B2W2 yet) and they took the most amount of tries for me to beat out of all the other champions.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
BDSP is the worst because it's painfully clear they shelled it out just to appeal to fans screaming about Gen 4 remakes.

In the end, we didn't get a Gen 4 remake. We got a Gen 4 remaster.
Going to say this again, but I strongly believe that we wouldn't have gotten an overhaul remake of Gen 4 as with FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS if we got Legends Arceus. PLA was the actual love letter of Sinnoh, while BDSP was made to fill in the remake quota. I like BDSP, but I'm not going to say that it had as much ambition as PLA.
 

Snewed119

Member
What are your reasons for Gen 3 dex being bad? Also explain more about the Mareep and moveslot thing.
(Prepare for a lengthy response) I agree that when you compared the regional dex's of every game, Johto's power level on the whole is lower, but I would state contrary and say Hoenn isn't that much lower because how many of them are just as unusable or only serve a single purpose that isn't even useful in game? You have the worst Water/Ground type in Whishcash (who is already outclassed by Swampert) two double battle specific Pokemon (Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise) one of each duo is just a worst version of the other, Shedinja (who's gimmick isn't good in a gam where gyms are unfriendly to Bug types) Luvdisc who rivals that of Delibird, Ariados and Pre Gen4 Yanma in usefulness, Mawile (especially in Emerald where its availability is worse) Tropius, Spinda, Castform, Nosepass (also bad availability) Cradily, Huntail (a worse Gorebyss who isn't even available until after 7th badge) Relicanth, Delcatty (only made for contest and its stats are honestly worse than 95% of the Johto Dex) Beautifly, Dustox (worse versions of Butterfree and Beedrill) Surskit and Masquerain (not even obtainable in Emerald) Glalie (mediocre stats, the best of the bad mons and its only uses are for a couple of Elite Four battles, can't be gotten until 7 badges) Wailord, Mightyena, Pelipper (bad before it got Drizzle) Chimecho, Grumpig (not bad, but it literally has NOTHING but STAB Psychic, and is just a worse Gardevoir) Bannette, Swalot (a worse Muk) . This is a Dex that features 202 Pokémon, 135 of which are new out of these options the ones I just listed equate to around 27 of them are so weak or outclassed to be useful, and if you add the amount you can't get due to being too late game, like around 7 to 8 badges (The Adformentioned Huntail, Gorebyss, Chimecho, Salamence, Metagross, Regis, Walrein, Dusclops) that's like 7 more options too late. So really you don't have as many options as you think.

To Hoenn's credit there is a bit more to do than in Johto, but it is still too late for the post Mossdeep Pokemon. That's literally half of your options in game exclusively Hoenn mons! With all of this abundance of Gen 2 hate videos recently (especially since it ties into annoying trend Nintendo fans like to do nowadays or people's mindsets regarding gaming as a whole or how they act so hostile and nasty toward GF) it has me questioning if these people are playing the same game as I am. Because in a lot of these cases I have seen people call Gen 2 having the worst level up movesets, ignoring hat Gens 1, 3 and 4 are just as bad as Gen 2, but never really see a goo arguement for why they are okay and Gen 2 isn't. Yes, learnsets are bad in Gen 2 (insert echo chamber number 100 for Xatu not learning Psychic until 65), but to objectively say they are worse than the Gens stated is flat out dishonest. In Gen 1 Pokemon literally have the same moveset issues, and while you can get powerful moves through TMs more effeciently, because it is Gen 1 it creates issues of its own. For one, not a single electric type learns Thunderbolt, other than Yellow Pikachu, this means if you decide on an Electric type for the team, you have to use Thunderbolt on it, but here's another problem, what if I wanted to teach Thunderbolt to another Pokemon for a coverage move, because you know there's more to a Pokemon than having STAB and doesn't make the choice or game flawed. Welp I can't do that, Sorry any other mon I want coverage on, TMs aren't relearnable and I can't teach all the good moves that aren't Hyper Beam to a team. And this is an issue I find every time I've played Gen 1, I might be able to teach a move to a Mon, but one will lack a coverage option, especially if its just better to use the one move on that particular Pokemon. And no saying "limitations means you can't be OP" you can just choose not to buy TMs for multiple team members. Plus Gen 1's AI have such bad movesets and mechanics are so broken its hard to be "hard" any way. Gen 2 admittedly has this problem, with the absent Mareep line (my rant on that coming in a bit) from Crystal other electric type options don' learn electric moves unless you buy Thunder in the Goldenrod game corner or hatch a Pichu/Elekid other than Spark Lanturn, but at the very least I can provide electric coverage to other mons with elemental punches, so that I have a form of Electric damage.

Then there's the issue of mons have blatant filler in their learnsets, why does Rhydon learn Tail Whip a 55? Ignoring the fact the player would have their crafted moveset for it, it's just blatant textbox filler, because that move could just go to a different option instead of something I chuck before the first or second Gym. It has to exclusively use TMs to be useful, the same with Tauros, the best mon In game is just TM the moveset, or the fact Rapidash learns Tail Whip at 35 and can't even learn Flamethrower, and with a poultry base 80 Sp Attack why give it Fire Blast? Yes it can abuse Gen 1 crit chances, but that's besides my specific point. (It also comes late and evolves late) or the worst offender being Aerodactyl who gets no STAB or no reliable physical damaging moves outside of Hyper Beam. Or how Charizard can't learn fly in RB, which means the player is forced to waste a teamslot on a mon to do what it should already be doing. Even in Gen 3 this is a problem, even with the starters. The Treecko line has garbage level up moves, with it having Absorb as its best move until 28 where it gets Leaf Blade, then its only coverage option is Dragon Claw after the 8th gym. With Torchic line its stuck with Double Kick until the 8th Gym where you can TM it Brick Break and doesn't get Sky Uppercut until 58, and if you wanna teach it fire type moves? You're stuck with Blaze Kick unless you use Fire Blast (which I prefer the more raw power any way) or game cornering for Flamethrower, otherwise you're stuck with a slightly weaker and less accurate Flamethrower (as a side note, it would be a bit hypocritical to say getting Fire Blast is fine there, but not fine in Gen 2, when a complaint is Typhlosion can't learn Flamethrower until level 60 and Fire Punch is the same as Blaze Kick), don't worry I'll get there) and doesn't get many coverage moves because the ones it could do are locked behind postgame. Which is the same with the popular Gardevoir, who only spams Psychic and Thunderbolt because any coverage move is postgame, or Grumpig and Chimecho only being limited to STAB Psychic for the same reason (unless you wanna farm Hidden Power coverage) or Breloom not learning Spore until you keep it as a Shroomish until level 54.

I always hated the fact they often lock moves behind postgames, usually when a Battle Facitity is involved, but it unfairly punishes a lot of Pokemon movesets, why exactly can I not teach Gardevoir Ice Punch? It's not even like giving it that option would be OP, it's just locked behind postgame (and if you play RS you just don't have those options) people might see it as a reward for interacting with Postgame, but just limit that to specific moves or other options that don't have to interfere with my movepool or coverage options.

And while this isn't an excuse, most Pokemon in Gen 2 have good coverage moves locked behind breeding, because it was GF's way of promoting a new mechanic, but again, I can say this for other games, criticizing Gen 2 for lack of options due to mechanics made for limited player interaction is a overarching flaw, because this is why version exclusives can be seen as a flaw for every game, its a way for GF to encourage socialability since that is part of what they want to market Pokemon as, but these aspects are lost in translation because Ninendo will jus shut down their connectivity services and stuff like trading will become a "flaw" due to a lack of access, like version exclusives we no longer have access to without hacks. Regardless of the QoL we have in newer games, this will all be a flaw over time. When it comes to Gen 4, the remakes (Johto) have the same movepool issue. Xatu learns Psychic at level 65 in Gen 2? Great it learns it at 50 in HGSS, Typhlosion Flamethrower at level 60 in GSC? 43 in HGSS, and because these remakes are hated for being "Johto" enough nowadays too I will say like with Gen 2 these aren't just Johto issues, this is a generational issue (many of the complaints people cite as Johto issues aren't native to Johto, its just a case of them having their mons suffer from a generation issue moreso because of options, even level curve, because while it is the worst in regards to how it scales the player newer games do the opposite in reverse, Gens 6 and 7 have a level curve problem with making the player too strong), because if you look up Diamond, Pearl and Platinum movesets it will be the exact same, but I guess because people have a bias toward Platinum these will be brushed off or gatekept in some way. I can even provide Platinum specific examples. Want to enjoy new Eevee evolutions? Well have this nice Leafeon who doesn't learn Leaf Blade until LEVEL 71! And stuck with Razor Leaf the entire game, or how about X Scissor? TM only. Swords Dance? 78 and its Platinum exclusive. Well how about Glaceon? Blizzard a 71 for its best Special damage unless you use TMs. That's also not mentioning Luxray, Weavile, Purugly, Skunktank, Carnivine, Bronzong, Rampardos, Honchcrow.

Lastly when it comes to the Mareep line complaint, this is done for people who say Crystal is bad SOLELY for the premise that it doesn't have Mareep. Okay, so this makes no sense to me from a logical standpoint. So, some of the updated features Crystal added like elminating the use of flash in Mt Mortar, reducing the amount of 1% swarm encounters from 7 to 3, providing evolution stones (which gives more team options) updated area designs, better sprites, female player option, making people you register in Pokegear have personalized dialogue, reduced roamers from 3 to 1 etc don't matter because 1 Pokemon line is excluded from the game? Like yes, Mareep should be in the game, but that's a downright stupid claim to say he overall better experience is worse because of what is a minor inconvenience. And this is also an odd claim to make because the main reason for criticizing lack of options is because they want more options, but the way they act as if Mareep's exclusion comes off as it's a mandatory overused option you MUST use, kinda goes against that because you've objectively chosen to engage limitedly. I agree Mareep should be in Crystal, but so should every version exclusive Pokemon in every game because in modern day players have less options because of these lost in time features, especially when the enhanced 3rd versions don' include mons, meaning certain mons miss out on the superior versions (which makes the dual versions pointless) these are issues because you don't have options to get them, all Pokemon games should make every regional Pokemon available period, like years from now the same will apply to SV, which will resort to complaints about "Why doesn't X version have this or that" but by this logic, is Emerald objectively worse than Ruby and Sapphire because Wallace is a worse choice for champion over Steven or the fact Pokemon like Zangoose are just Ruby exclusive? Disregarding the various improvements and Battle Frontier? Emerald doesn't even have Medicham. If I want Mareep in Johto I'll play the remakes, instead of limiting myself playing worse versions because of a single team option.
 

Lluc

Not a Very Well-Known Member
^^^^ Having finished a playthrough of Pokemon Black recently (while also beating all the other mainline games back to back in order before it), I can officially say I really like the Unova dex precisely because it was the first time every Pokemon in the dex struck out as fun and good to use. I was actually having choice paralysis over who I wanted to use in my party because I wanted to try so many Pokemon out. I didn't get that feeling at all when I played the gen 1~4 games.
 

Snewed119

Member
^^^^ Having finished a playthrough of Pokemon Black recently (while also beating all the other mainline games back to back in order before it), I can officially say I really like the Unova dex precisely because it was the first time every Pokemon in the dex struck out as fun and good to use. I was actually having choice paralysis over who I wanted to use in my party because I wanted to try so many Pokemon out. I didn't get that feeling at all when I played the gen 1~4 games.
My point exactly. This is one of many reasons Black &White are a good reform. You can build your moveset as well as your team. You can pick and choose what moves you want to teach them due to TMs no longer being finite or relearnable through farming.
 
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