Unreleased DW Pokemon

[Ilan]

Excadrill was powerful in the sand, but it had a butt load of weaknesses, too. In fact, once Sand was down, it was really easy to take out. Not only that, but a lot of its weaknesses are obscenely common. And yet, it's still banned.
Shadow Tag Chandelure is deadly because nobody will use it unless there is a pokemon it can defeat out. Terrakion stuck on CC, Venasaur, maybe even Dragonite if it's armed with HP Ice. The point is, Chandelure strengths outweigh its weaknesses. Yes, it can be beaten, but like Excadrill and Thunderus, it's going to be too hard to do so.

I think it will be always top priority to beat before chandelure weak pokemon come to the field also ditto..
I guess a chandelure + ditto combo can work you go to something that is boosting with chandelure then if chandelure is killed ditto comes with boosted stats to beat a whole team :3

 

[zerofield]

The thing is that any well-played ST chandy doesn't switch in so you can beat it. It comes in after a slow u-turn or after a KO, then uses the highest spA outside of Ubers along with a choice scarf and near-perfect coverage to kill whatever it's facing. If you don't pack a pursuiter that resists its current attack it can just switch out and revenge another mon later. There's a reason Tyranitar is on more than 60% of Dream World OU teams, and that reason is Chandelure, although the fact that Excadrill and Garchomp are legal in DW doesn't hurt either. Still, it's really the only answer to chandy out there.

People can also run subCM Chandelure. It comes in against something like Ferrothorn or Blissey that can't hurt it, then sets up a sub and boosts to +6 while they struggle. Chandy basically forces every wall in the meta to either run Shed Shell (making sandstall unviable and taking away many mons only form of recovery) or become an auto-loss for the team. I can't believe there's still discussion abut whether chandy will be broken and Uber'd, it's so obvious. It rips apart the DW metagame, which is much more powerful than the standard OU meta thanks to pokemon like Techniloom, Manaphy, Excadrill, and others, and we're debating how it'll hit OU?

 

[Agonist]

Chandelure gets Shadow Tag: revenge kills everything.
Serperior grabs Contrary: Sets up in 2 seconds.
Ditto gets Imposter: Slap a Scarf on it can beat off most things.
Lugia boasts MultiScale: becomes more than an Uber Staller.

No, Shadow Tag Chandelure can't revenge everything.

Contrary Serperior will be better than Overgrow Serperior, but it still has terrible coverage, and is fairly easily walled.

Imposter Ditto is completely ****ed over by Sub.

Lugia with Multiscale is pretty cool, however you lose Roost (meaning you're more vulnerable to stuff like CB Stone Edge), and Pressure helps it immensely, especially in dealing with stuff like CB Stone Edge.

 

[Ultimate Champion]

Multiscale Lugia can still wall even Choice Band-boosted Stone Edges fine, since Stone Edge's power no longer being halved by Roost is completely made up for by this attack's power being halved by Multiscale.

 

[thatjeremykid]

besides talking about chandelure and lugia decking it out in ubers, what else do you want to see? lol.

 

[Zachmac]

Imposter Ditto is completely ****ed over by Sub.

It's not really that much of a problem. Dragon Dancers and Volcarona don't usually run substitute, and neither to many other offensive pokemon. While it is a good option for many cases, Ditto will still be a pretty good pokemon.

 

[ROBO PIKA Tek 2]

No, Shadow Tag Chandelure can't revenge everything.

Contrary Serperior will be better than Overgrow Serperior, but it still has terrible coverage, and is fairly easily walled.

Imposter Ditto is completely ****ed over by Sub.

Lugia with Multiscale is pretty cool, however you lose Roost (meaning you're more vulnerable to stuff like CB Stone Edge), and Pressure helps it immensely, especially in dealing with stuff like CB Stone Edge.

Scarf Chandelure comes in and takes it down.

It would be walled as much as Contrary.

Zachmac can explain.

Roost is a big loss. Forgot about that.

 

[Agonist]

Scarf Chandelure comes in and takes it down.

It would be walled as much as Contrary.

Zachmac can explain.

Roost is a big loss. Forgot about that.

That's only assuming A) whatever you're coming in on is slower than you are, or B) you can either OHKO it, or set up on it without getting slaughtered yourself (Chandelure doesn't have the best defenses in world.)

Your point about Serperior makes no sense. Both variants are easily walled, regardless of the ability. What I was saying is that even when using Contrary, and getting a bunch of boosts, you're still easily walled since Serperior's special movepool consists of special grass moves, and Hidden Power.

About Imposter Ditto, yes, that's true that currently not many set up sweepers carry Sub, but once (or if) DW Ditto is released, there probably will be a large jump in the usage of Sub on said sweepers.

 

[Zachmac]

That's only assuming A) whatever you're coming in on is slower than you are, or B) you can either OHKO it, or set up on it without getting slaughtered yourself (Chandelure doesn't have the best defenses in world.)

The trick is to send it out on something that it is slower then it and it can OHKO. If you just send it in whenever a pokemon faints, you're not playing it right. There will probably be multiple cases where it takes out multiple members of your team, just because they've been weakened and because it has a choice scarf.

About Imposter Ditto, yes, that's true that currently not many set up sweepers carry Sub, but once (or if) DW Ditto is released, there probably will be a large jump in the usage of Sub on said sweepers.

Hmm...good point. We'll just see how it goes, then. At the very least, it'll be able to successfully thrash around for the first couple weeks or so.

Roost is a big loss. Forgot about that.

Except that it has recover. Then it can stall out stone edges with muliscale.

 

[ROBO PIKA Tek 2]

That's only assuming A) whatever you're coming in on is slower than you are, or B) you can either OHKO it, or set up on it without getting slaughtered yourself (Chandelure doesn't have the best defenses in world.)

Your point about Serperior makes no sense. Both variants are easily walled, regardless of the ability. What I was saying is that even when using Contrary, and getting a bunch of boosts, you're still easily walled since Serperior's special movepool consists of special grass moves, and Hidden Power.

About Imposter Ditto, yes, that's true that currently not many set up sweepers carry Sub, but once (or if) DW Ditto is released, there probably will be a large jump in the usage of Sub on said sweepers.

I honestly can't understand the point you're trying to get across. Anyway, Scarf Chandelure can have a maximum of over 420 Speed which outspeeds many things.

Serperior does get walled easily and I guess you're making a point, but also forgot to say that it'll destroy sweepers such as SD Scizor. Come in on an SD and that amazing attack drops to devastating depths.

Eh, Sub rising is more controversial than said.

 

[Zachmac]

Come in on an SD and that amazing attack drops to devastating depths.

I don't think it works like that....

Eh, Sub rising is more controversial than said.

Well, just about any good offensive pokemon can run a sub set effectively. I took the standard Calm Mind Latias and just slapped Substitute over HP fire, and there it was a big success. Sub-Boosting Terrakion and Gyarados are also running around. Heck, Dragonite can pull the same trick as my latias and give up Fire Punch for it. Substitute/Dragondance/DragonClaw/Roost. You may think it could have trouble with Ferrothorn, but as my Latias taught me, Ferrothorn is just set up bait.

The point is substitute is a great supportive move, and it can stop Ditto, who would be a huge threat to said sets.


.....I feel like I'm persuaded too easily.

 

[Dragonicwari]

Scrappy on stoutland seems like a fun undiscussed idea, anyone else looking forward to it?

 

[John Wallrein]

hmm that might be useful in lower tiers where sand isn't common. It'll be able to hit everything with its STAB but then you get to the fact that ghosts are too extremely common.

 

[ROBO PIKA Tek 2]

I don't think it works like that....Well, just about any good offensive pokemon can run a sub set effectively. I took the standard Calm Mind Latias and just slapped Substitute over HP fire, and there it was a big success. Sub-Boosting Terrakion and Gyarados are also running around. Heck, Dragonite can pull the same trick as my latias and give up Fire Punch for it. Substitute/Dragondance/DragonClaw/Roost. You may think it could have trouble with Ferrothorn, but as my Latias taught me, Ferrothorn is just set up bait.

The point is substitute is a great supportive move, and it can stop Ditto, who would be a huge threat to said sets.


.....I feel like I'm persuaded too easily.

Well it does work like that.

I've never seen Sub-on Terrakion though. Maybe Ditto's best teammates will become priority users.

 

[redcharzard]

Regenerator won't actually make up for stealth rock. I'll still need rapid spin support. Regenerator works when it retreats from battle, rather then enters, so it'll still lose all 50% of it's health from coming in on stealth rock. The reason it wants regenerator is to improve it's tanking abilities, it's already got a great special defense. But whatever you do, do no use a team lacking rapid spin support with it.

Ho-Oh doesn't need regenerator at all, but it sure will enjoy it.

It allows Choice Scarf/Choice Band/other sets Ho-oh to enter the battle (perferably on something using earthquake) take the 50% damage, beat a oppenent or inflict some damage, retreat, get back 33% of it hp. This lets Ho-oh at most enter the battle with stealth rocks up 3 times (assuming it takes no damage and doesn't use recover/roost (if roost is available via dw) or stay in an extra turn to heal from leftovers or has a shell bell to heal after beating/damaging an enemy.)

 

[thatjeremykid]

Why exactly is Substitute a good counter to Imposter Ditto? Does Imposter fail against a sub? (edit: oh, well that's neat. thanks, bulbapedia.) i know it fails against illusions.

 

[Agonist]

The trick is to send it out on something that it is slower then it and it can OHKO. If you just send it in whenever a pokemon faints, you're not playing it right. There will probably be multiple cases where it takes out multiple members of your team, just because they've been weakened and because it has a choice scarf.
Hmm...good point. We'll just see how it goes, then. At the very least, it'll be able to successfully thrash around for the first couple weeks or so.Except that it has recover. Then it can stall out stone edges with muliscale.

Yeah, but if you're running a Timid, Scarf set then its not exactly devastating like Modest Specs would be, or a CM varient setting up on Choice locked Fighting/Normal move. Yes, I'm sure there will be teams that get destroyed, but at the same time there are a fair number of things that can take a hit and OHKO it in return, even if it has been weakened. The other point I was trying to say is that even with a Choice Scarf, it can still be outspeed easily by other common Scarf users.

That's true, but the only thing I see is that since you have no Pressure, that's twice as many chances for Stone Edge to crit. Eh, I guess it can go both ways, I just feel like Pressure/Roost is more conductive towards stalling.

I honestly can't understand the point you're trying to get across. Anyway, Scarf Chandelure can have a maximum of over 420 Speed which outspeeds many things.

Serperior does get walled easily and I guess you're making a point, but also forgot to say that it'll destroy sweepers such as SD Scizor. Come in on an SD and that amazing attack drops to devastating depths.

Eh, Sub rising is more controversial than said.

Contrary doesn't work like that. It only works on your lowered stats. Coming in on a Scizor using Swords Dance just means Serperior is going to be eating a +2 Bullet Punch.

As for Sub, like Zachmac said, it can be slapped onto most sets easily enough.

Well it does work like that.

I've never seen Sub-on Terrakion though. Maybe Ditto's best teammates will become priority users.

It doesn't work like that, however.

 

[MatchMaster]

Iron Fist Infernape with ThunderPunch. That would let it get by Jellicent with ease. I hope if there are move tutor in B2 & W2, they have the elemental punches.

 

[ParaChomp]

i still can't get over that arceus won :|

Hilarious how Ditto came in third in the poll. Anyone else remember who came in second?

Don't like that Chandelure will most likely face the same dreaded fate as Blaziken and Excadrill. If it weren't for their Dream World abilities (or the combination of Sand Stream and Sand Rush in Excadrill's case), they wouldn't be banned. Then comes the bullsh*t about if that's so, it should be done to a larger extent "so let's ban sleep inducing moves from Darkrai and see what happens" and so on and so forth. They have a point but it still pisses me off! Oh well, at least I have better replacements for Chandelure. Anyways, with Shadow Tag in mind, don't know what will happen with Gothitelle, it's not that great at its core so maybe it will gracefully avoid the boot while gently landing in OU.

A lot of these Pokemon are awful without egg moves (Sceptile, Mamoswine, etcetera). Anyways, I doubt it will happen but I'm hoping my 5th favourite Pokemon, Feraligatr, gets a female Dream World release (or we get a wide range of move tutors in Black and White 2). The power of Sheer Force and Life Orb boosted Crunch, Waterfall, and Ice Punch will deal a hefty chunk after a Dragon Dance. Plus Feraligatr has a hefty amount of natural bulk allowing it to set up easy and then hit back hard.

 

[Zachmac]

Scrappy on stoutland seems like a fun undiscussed idea, anyone else looking forward to it?

It has Crunch, so I'd give it intimidate to help it's bulk out a bit more.