Versus Thread

[Genaller]

A&Cfan first off we don’t know all of Paul’s Pokémon and he likely did have powerhouses that we never saw (just like how Paul never saw some of Ash’s powerhouses). Uh we don’t know when he caught Froslass, Gastrodon or Drapion (yeah they show him battling a wild Drapion with Electobuzz though it’s never confirmed that it was the same Drapion used in the SL). I could see a team of Torterra, Froslass, Weavile, Nidoking, Drapion and Gastrodon beating any of Ash’s previous rivals. Also narratively speaking it’s blatanlty obvious that Paul was the strongest rival Ash ever had till that point and also that they were meant to be considered as on par throughout most of DP based on them tying in DP 3. I’m sorry but how is Gliscor “amongst the weakest t-2”? I have Gliscor above every other “t-2” except for Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross and Swellow, so I’d love to see this argument of yours for Gliscor being 1 of the “weakest t-2”. Yeah Talonflame beats Honchkrow in what’s probably a close match.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

A&Cfan first off we don’t know all of Paul’s Pokémon and he likely did have powerhouses that we never saw (just like how Paul never saw some of Ash’s powerhouses). Uh we don’t know when he caught Froslass, Gastrodon or Drapion (yeah they show him battling a wild Drapion with Electobuzz though it’s never confirmed that it was the same Drapion used in the SL). I could see a team of Torterra, Froslass, Weavile, Nidoking, Drapion and Gastrodon beating any of Ash’s previous rivals. Also narratively speaking it’s blatanlty obvious that Paul was the strongest rival Ash ever had till that point and also that they were meant to be considered as on par throughout most of DP based on them tying in DP 3. I’m sorry but how is Gliscor “amongst the weakest t-2”? I have Gliscor above every other “t-2” except for Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross and Swellow, so I’d love to see this argument of yours for Gliscor being 1 of the “weakest t-2”. Yeah Talonflame beats Honchkrow in what’s probably a close match.

Pretty sure he caught drapion after coming to sinnoh otherwise why would he caught multiple drapions. As for his other pokemon after watching hariyama and nidoking getting destroyed by regis they are not that strong. As for paul vs other rivals no way he can win with team of torterra, weavile, froslass, gastrodon, nidoking and hariyama he is not winning against gary's johto team or tyson' team. He was given fast power boost just like ash's rivals that came after him like trip and sawyer just to give a threat to ash.

As for gliscor vs t2 like kingler and glalie, glalie was one of two mvp of hoenn league, glalie was able to tie up against hoenn league eventual champion's starter which is much more impressive than trainer's drapion (no matter how strong it may be). Same with kingler he was able to win a league match against a popular favourtie mandy. IMO both of there feats are more impressive than gliscor's feats.

 

[Genaller]

Like I said it’s never confirmed that Paul caught the Drapion he was battling with Electobuzz. For all we know Regi could have given him his Drapion after he retired. Pretty sure Nidoking landed 3 hits on Registeel and they were having an effect. Yeah the Torkoal that fought Registeel would be better than most “t-2s” (since they’re certainly not doing that well) never mind “t-3s”. Paul with Torterra, Drapion, Froslass, Gastrodon, Nidoking and Weavile vs rivals:

— pre-Sinnoh Paul vs JL Gary:

Nidoking vs Nidoqueen -> Nidoking
Nidoking vs Magmar -> Magmar
Gastrodon vs Magmar -> Draw
Weavile vs Arcanine -> Arcanine
Froslass vs Arcanine -> Froslass
Froslass vs Scizor -> Draw
Drapion vs Golem -> Drapion
Drapion vs Blastoise -> Blastories
Torterra vs Blastoise -> Torterra (easy RK)

Paul wins neg 6-5.

Note: “Draw” means that the winner likely gets KOed immediately by the next Pokémon.

— pre-Sinnoh Paul vs JL Harrison

Nidoking vs Kecleon -> Nidoking
Nidoking vs Sneasel -> Nidoking
Nidoking vs Hypno -> Hypno
Froslass vs Hypno -> Froslass
Froslass vs Steelix -> Froslass
Froslass vs Houndoom -> Houndoom
Weavile vs Houndoom -> Houndoom
Gastrodon vs Houndoom -> Gastrodon
Gastrodon vs Blaziken -> Blaziken
Drapion vs Blaziken -> Blaziken
Torterra vs Blaziken -> Torterra

Paul wins neg/low 6-5

— pre-Sinnoh Paul vs Tyson

Froslass vs Sceptile -> Froslass
Froslass vs Shiftry -> Froslass
Froslass vs Donphan -> Donphan
Weavile vs Donphan -> Weavile
Weavile vs Hariyama -> Hariyama
Gastrodon vs Hariyama -> Hariyama
Nidoking vs Hariyama -> Nidoking
Nidoking vs Metagross -> Metagross
Torterra vs Metagross -> Torterra
Torterra vs Meowth -> Meowth
Drapion vs Meowth -> Drapion

Paul wins mid 6-5.

Like I said; even pre-Sinnoh Paul was stronger than any rival Ash had ever faced. Besides the Pokémon we know of its very likely that Paul had powerhouses we’ve never seen like how Paul never saw some of Ash’s powerhouses. Paul by definition is a trainer who is equivalent to Ash in ability, but is his antithesis in terms of Pokémon philosophy.

LMAO Tyson’s Sceptile isn’t t-1. Meowth > Sceptile and Metagross > Sceptile. Starter =\= strongest (e.g. Misty and Iris). Drapion is (mid) t-1 given how it thrashed 3 t-3 Pokémon . It took Water Gun + Energy Ball + Leaf Storm + upward jolt from Rock Climb. It seemed to have the bulk of its health remaining against Gliscor (approx 60-70%). Gliscor was damaged by Ninjask (so let’s say it started against Drapion at approx 80-90%) and also of note is that it was POISONED. Despite this it not only beats Drapion but also has enough health left to tank a battlefield Thunder from Electivire. Honestly as an individual feat it’s even better than anything Swellow has done with the only reason I don’t put it outright over Swellow being out of respect for Swellow’s excellent consistency. Kingler and Glalie are pretty much Pokémon that the writers have actively given the shaft. Kingler was only used in the Kanto League and Whirl Cup, and it was deliberately side lined in favor of Squirtle in the Johto League after which it was never used again. With Glalie it was used against Juan (unsuccessfully) and at the Hoenn League (where let’s be clear Swellow was the definitive mvp since Glalie never beat 2 Pokémon and survived to face a 3rd whereas Swellow did it twice), and then sidelined completely for the Battle Frontier with no FB battles (even Torkoal who was also sidelined got a battle that too against a legendary), and finally it was teased in the Sinnoh League only to then be shafted entirely. It’s just clear that Glalie and Kingler wouldn’t make Ash’s 2nd string team (Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross, Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle... yup Squirtle is 1 of the most underrated Pokémon here and is better than either of those shaftees as well).

A huge mistake that a lot of people make when tiering is assigning all (or at least most) feats equivalent weight. The reason it’s fallacious is because a Pokémon’s progression needs to be taken into consideration meaning that when we know a Pokémon has improved significantly in viability, all feats post-improvement hold much higher weight than all feats pre-improvement since those feats would no longer be representative of its current strength. For example we know that Squirtle got far better after rejoining the Squirtle squad based on Officer Jenny’s statements as well as it’s feats (e.g. can attack with both greater speed and precision, can attack while in mid air, can see through thick smoke, becomes a beyblade when using Hydro Pump). This means that the primary feats representative of Squirtle’s current viability would be vs Macy and Brandon. Similarly with Gliscor we know it got much better post air master training meaning that it’s performance against Paul in the SL provides the primary representation of its current viability.

 

[Navin]

LMAO Tyson’s Sceptile isn’t t-1. Meowth > Sceptile and Metagross > Sceptile.

Tiering non-Ash's Pokemon is just silly since we rarely get sufficient showings or have a good enough understanding to know how good they really are.

And what makes the most powerful Pokemon of a league champion not a "tier-1"?

 

[Genaller]

Tiering non-Ash's Pokemon is just silly since we rarely get sufficient showings or have a good enough understanding to know how good they really are.

I’m just going to make 1 reply to this so please pay attention. A person’s “tierings” or ratings rather are just an efficient summary of where they personally think given Pokémon in the anime stack relative to each other based on the information the anime provides. The inherent assumption is that the writers have provided sufficient information to make a reasonable decision on where any major trainer Pokémon should be and any information not provided (or at least hinted at) implies that the writers deemed it unnecessary, hence it needn’t be factored in when making a decision. Besides if it truly is impossible to reasonably discern a rough idea of where non-Ash Pokémon are then not only are any vs matchups involving them worthless, but so are the tierings for Ash’s Pokémon as well since then we would also have no clue whatsoever as to what the feats of Ash’s Pokémon are actually worth.

And what makes the most powerful Pokemon of a league champion not a "tier-1"?

Meowth is Tyson’s Ace and would have an A rating in my system though if I were to use your system (where Snorlax is presumably the entry point to t-1) then I wouldn’t put a single 1 of his Pokémon in t-1. Also using “conference champion” as a way to say his Pokémon must inherently be better than so and so other Pokémon that didn’t compete in the conference he won is objectively a bad argument. What you’re doing is butchering the mounty hall principle. The argument that you’re actually presenting with that is:

- GYMs have minimum standards of quality
- trainers who beat 8 of those GYMs must also have minimum standards of quality (this standard would likely be higher than that of the aggregate GYM)
- Tyson is confirmed to be better than 511 of such trainers
- Character X is not confirmed to be better than anywhere near 511 of such trainers
- Therefore, (probably) Tyson > Character X

The issue is that this principle is most reliable when none or minimal information is provided (a.k.a we know almost nothing about Tyson other than the fact that he’s better than 511 trainers for whom we also know almost nothing other than the fact that they meet certain minimal standards); however, that is not the case since we have concrete performances from his Pokémon and Tyson overall just barely edged out AG Ash with his Hoenn League team in a down to the wire match. By the end of AG Peakachu, Sceptile and Torkoal made substantial boosts (I’m not repeating the arguments for why for the nth time unles a new member asks) putting the end of BF Hoenn Team far above the HL Hoenn Team and hence far above Tyson (matter of fact BF Peakachu + Sceptile would arguably be sufficient to sweep him given how strong they became by end of BF). A claim like “A Pokémon is most likely near its plateau by its league conference” which you love bringing up is completely unsubstantiated with a lot of evidence to the contrary (off the top of my head Pikachu, Charizard, Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Snorlax, Noctowl, Heracross, Quilava, Donphan, Sceptile and Torkoal would all be cases where the Pokémon is significantly stronger than they were as of their first league conference).

Think whatever you will, but mathematically speaking know that you are fallacioisly applying the mounty hall principle (whether you consciously know that you are intuitively applying it or not). If anyone wants a deeper explanation on the mounty hall principle, then feel free to let me know.

 

[Navin]

I’m just going to make 1 reply to this so please pay attention. A person’s “tierings” or ratings rather are just an efficient summary of where they personally think given Pokémon in the anime stack relative to each other based on the information the anime provides. The inherent assumption is that the writers have provided sufficient information to make a reasonable decision on where any major trainer Pokémon should be and any information not provided (or at least hinted at) implies that the writers deemed it unnecessary, hence it needn’t be factored in when making a decision. Besides if it truly is impossible to reasonably discern a rough idea of where non-Ash Pokémon are then not only are any vs matchups involving them worthless, but so are the tierings for Ash’s Pokémon as well since then we would also have no clue whatsoever as to what the feats of Ash’s Pokémon are actually worth.

Oh cool, you're not ignoring me anymore. I know you missed me.

I of all people don't need an explanation of how "tiers" work lol. I just think it's too much if every Pokemon starts being categorized to an arbitrary tier relative to something.

Meowth is Tyson’s Ace and would have an A rating in my system though if I were to use your system (where Snorlax is presumably the entry point to t-1) then I wouldn’t put a single 1 of his Pokémon in t-1. Also using “conference champion” as a way to say his Pokémon must inherently be better than so and so other Pokémon that didn’t compete in the conference he won is objectively a bad argument. What you’re doing is butchering the mounty hall principle. The argument that you’re actually presenting with that is:

- GYMs have minimum standards of quality
- trainers who beat 8 of those GYMs must also have minimum standards of quality (this standard would likely be higher than that of the aggregate GYM)
- Tyson is confirmed to be better than 511 of such trainers
- Character X is not confirmed to be better than anywhere near 511 of such trainers
- Therefore, (probably) Tyson > Character X

...? Dunno where any of this is coming from, but sure.

The issue is that this principle is most reliable when none or minimal information is provided (a.k.a we know almost nothing about Tyson other than the fact that he’s better than 511 trainers for whom we also know almost nothing other than the fact that they meet certain minimal standards); however, that is not the case since we have concrete performances from his Pokémon and Tyson overall just barely edged out AG Ash with his Hoenn League team in a down to the wire match. By the end of AG Peakachu, Sceptile and Torkoal made substantial boosts (I’m not repeating the arguments for why for the nth time unles a new member asks) putting the end of BF Hoenn Team far above the HL Hoenn Team and hence far above Tyson (matter of fact BF Peakachu + Sceptile would arguably be sufficient to sweep him given how strong they became by end of BF). A claim like “A Pokémon is most likely near its plateau by its league conference” which you love bringing up is completely unsubstantiated with a lot of evidence to the contrary (off the top of my head Pikachu, Charizard, Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Snorlax, Noctowl, Heracross, Quilava, Donphan, Sceptile and Torkoal would all be cases where the Pokémon is significantly stronger than they were as of their first league conference).Think whatever you will, but mathematically speaking know that you are fallacioisly applying the mounty hall principle (whether you consciously know that you are intuitively applying it or not). If anyone wants a deeper explanation on the mounty hall principle, then feel free to let me know.

So uh, that's not what I was saying either, but sure. And lmao, I know you get salty about Tyson, but saying BF Pikachu + Sceptile can 2 v 6 him is too much, don't you think?

Meowth was best Pokemon of a league champion. What's suggesting otherwise that Vs. Tyson Pikachu wasn't battling at his upper limits? The battle was clearly shown to be a grueling match of Pikachu's offense being neutralized by Meowth's defense.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

What proof is there that he got drapion hefore cming to sinnoh and I doubt going by his personality he is getting his brothers pokemonwhom he despises. As for pre sinnoh Paul vs tyson, no way is paul beating a HL winner with that team a league champion in which he participated and lost and no way is sceptile his starter is losing to random froslass. Paul is just like other rivals of ash who got power boost for being a rival so that he could be considered a threat.

 

[Genaller]

I of all people don't need an explanation of how "tiers" work lol. I just think it's too much if every Pokemon starts being categorized to an arbitrary tier relative to something.

At the same time though if you can’t tell within reason where Pokémon X and Pokémon Y are either relative to each other or some other common (set of) Pokémon then any attempt at figuring out who beats whom is worthless making this thread worthless. Everyone intuitively has some idea where all the major trainer Pokémon stack up, so there’s nothing inherently wrong with summarizing that information via a rating system.

...? Dunno where any of this is coming from, but sure.

That’s the argument that saying “Tyson is inherently so and so cuz he won a league” actually represnets.

So uh, that's not what I was saying either, but sure. And lmao, I know you get salty about Tyson, but saying BF Pikachu + Sceptile can 2 v 6 him is too much, don't you think?

Not really salty; just calling it like I see it. BF Peakachu > Regice >= Dusclops ~ end of BF Zard >= beginning of BF Zard ~ Articuno, and BF Sceptile > BF Swellow + BF Heracross. My ratings for BF Peakachu + Sceptile vs Tyson go:

S: Brandon Peakachu, Borderline S-/A+: BF Sceptile, A: Meowth, A-: Metagross, Borderline B+/B: T-Sceptile, B-: Hariyama, C+: Donphan and D-/E+: Shiftry. Presuming Tyson conserves Metagross and Meowth:

BF Sceptile vs T-Scepitle -> BF Sceptile
BF Sceptile vs Shiftry -> BF Sceptile
BF Sceptile vs Hariyama -> BF Sceptile
BF Sceptile vs Donphan -> BF Sceptile
BF Sceptile vs Metagross -> Draw (winner is easily RKed)
Brandon Peakachu vs Meowth -> Brandon Peakachu with mid difficulty

Meowth was best Pokemon of a league champion. What's suggesting otherwise that Vs. Tyson Pikachu wasn't battling at his upper limits? The battle was clearly shown to be a grueling match of Pikachu's offense being neutralized by Meowth's defense.

Agreed Meowth was better than every other Pokémon in that league. Agreed that Pikachu was battling at his highest lvl yet in that battle. My “Peakachu” progression: Surge2 (B-) -> OI Drake (B) -> Clair2 (B+) -> Juan (A-) -> Tyson (A) -> Lucy (A+) -> Anabel2 (S-) -> Brandon3 (S) -> Tobias (S+). As you can see Peakachu had his most rapid growth in BF which can be thought of as an ascension season for the mouse since end of BF would be the first time that Peakachu was again Ash’s strongest Pokémon after Charizard reached his final evolutionary stage (so after over 400 episodes).

If I had to best equate my rating system with yours then it goes:

A+ - Z+ = Tier-1, B - A = Tier-2, C - B- = Tier-3, C- - D = Tier-4 and E = Tier-5. I say “best” since this equating still gives us 5 explicit disagreements namely Squirtle, Gible, Bayleef, Leavanny and Snivy.

What proof is there that he got drapion hefore cming to sinnoh and I doubt going by his personality he is getting his brothers pokemonwhom he despises. As for pre sinnoh Paul vs tyson, no way is paul beating a HL winner with that team a league champion in which he participated and lost and no way is sceptile his starter is losing to random froslass. Paul is just like other rivals of ash who got power boost for being a rival so that he could be considered a threat.

There’s no proof either way, so you definitely can’t say that Paul definitely didn’t have Drapion meaning the claim pre-Sinnoh Paul definitely can’t beat so and so cuz he doesn’t have Drapion is faulty which is the point. Paul competed in a different iteration of the Hoenn League. To compare Tyson and Paul like that is once again fallaciiusly applying the mounty hall principle (would you like a more in-depth explanation of the concept as well as when it can and can’t be applied). You also seem rock conveniently ignore the fact that we don’t know about all of Paul’s Pokémon. by scaling is an A- (since SL Paul Pikachu would be an S- based on how it performed against Electivire who is also an S-) whereas Tyson’s Sceptile is at best a B+, so yup it looses especially given Froslass’s type advantage and unique evasion skills. From all of scaling, narrative, symbolic and meta perspectives Paul would be Ash’s strongest rival till then and was on par with him throughout most of DP. It’s not my problem if you can’t understand that.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Where did this notion that Tyson's Meowth is his "strongest" come from?It barley defeated Pikachu,both were on the verge of fainting,Pikachu was still in process of getting stronger and didn't even know the move Volt Tackle yet.Metagross and Hariyama both took out 2 pokemon before fainting and Sceptile drew with Ash's Glalie.Meowth is Tyson's signature pokemon but it being his main powerhouse is false.

 

[Xenon Blue]

I kind of agree with Navin that putting Pokemon like Tyson's Sceptile into "tiers" is kind of pointless. If it was a decently reoccurring Pokemon not owned by Ash such as Alain's MCX or Paul's Electivire then I'm fine with tiering those, and even then the battles are still so scarce and short that it's still hard to objectively say how strong those Pokemon are. Sure the same thing can be said about Ash's Pokemon, but they have the quantity to make up for it. All we "know" about Tyson's Sceptile is that it drew with Ash's Glalie in terms of power and it was part of a league-winning team. I can't see how someone can tier this without making some major assumptions that may or may not be true. I personally think all of Tyson's Pokemon on average is around Ash's t-2/3 status with some almost being t-1, but that means nothing since I am already making major assumptions that a league champion who used the same team every match should theoretically have a very balanced and potent team. It all depends on what you want to think is the truth since the truth is so vague to begin with, and that does not belong in a tier list.

 

[Genaller]

I kind of agree with Navin that putting Pokemon like Tyson's Sceptile into "tiers" is kind of pointless. If it was a decently reoccurring Pokemon not owned by Ash such as Alain's MCX or Paul's Electivire then I'm fine with tiering those, and even then the battles are still so scarce and short that it's still hard to objectively say how strong those Pokemon are. Sure the same thing can be said about Ash's Pokemon, but they have the quantity to make up for it. All we "know" about Tyson's Sceptile is that it drew with Ash's Glalie in terms of power and it was part of a league-winning team. I can't see how someone can tier this without making some major assumptions that may or may not be true. I personally think all of Tyson's Pokemon on average is around Ash's t-2/3 status with some almost being t-1, but that means nothing since I am already making major assumptions that a league champion who used the same team every match should theoretically have a very balanced and potent team. It all depends on what you want to think is the truth since the truth is so vague to begin with, and that does not belong in a tier list.

First off we do also get a clip of Sceptile beating an Aggron though regardless if you really think that Sceptile’s viability can’t be reasonably discerned then it calls into question how much is Glalie’s feat even worth in the first place. Actually a few of Ash’s Pokémon like his Muk don’t have the quantity to be properly tiered based on the standards you’re setting for what should be tiered. What you personally think runs contrary to Shiftry’s performance against pre-BF Torkoal (who was by far the weakest member of the HL team) which appears to be more in line with t-4/t-5.

There’s no escaping making a plethora of assumptions; however, you can definitely attempt to figure out what the minimum amount of faith needed is in order to make your power scaling system consistent. A simple inherent assumption is that whatever information the writers gave should be sufficient for making a decision as to where a given major trainer Pokémon stacks up to other trainer Pokémon a.k.a all the required information is either known or reasonably inferred from what’s known.

With Navin the whole “silly” comment kind of seems like a moot point here since rigorously speaking even that initial tiering system he made requires a wide array of assumptions involving cross-region power scaling and trainer skill adjustment which by your standards should “not belong in a tier list”making any attempt at trying to construct a power scaling system for the anime completely pointless.

I don’t share your definition of “tier” or rating system; a rating system is simply an efficient summary of where a person personally thinks a given set of Pokémon stack up to each other and there’s nothing inherently wrong with doing that for all major trainer Pokémon. 1 method of dealing with the issue could be to assign confidence values to each placement you make in order to give a more complete summary of your views on anime trainer Pokémon where these values would be determined as a result of the amount of information available on the Pokémon being tiered as well as the number of assumptions needed in order to tier that Pokémon (a.k.a the assumptions needed in order to compare that Pokémon to other Pokémon in the system).

 

[CMButch]

I'd say that movie Arceus is Planet level since he stalemated a meteor which is a threat to entire world.Anime Arceus to be Universal +, reason is Dialga and Palkia used their signature moves in order to destroy entire universe. So they are Multi-Galaxy+ level(including Giratina which is same as them). Same logic would imply to movie versions if Arceus is planet level that means 3 of them would be moon levelers.

Based on ME specials Mega Rayquaza with DA destroyed PG and PK and destroyed like Large Island, which I would put them as Large Island + level, which means PG and PK would be Mountain levelers.
Mewtwo from first movie with 1% of his power moved a good chunk of ocean between city where Ash and co are and that island creating a storm..I'd say first movie Mewtwo is Large Country level with 100% of his power.If he goes X or Y I'd say Multi-Continental.

 

[Navin]

First off we do also get a clip of Sceptile beating an Aggron though regardless if you really think that Sceptile’s viability can’t be reasonably discerned then it calls into question how much is Glalie’s feat even worth in the first place.

That Aggron might have been very powerful. Part of what made HL so difficult was that it also had elimination 1 v 1s on top of everything else that followed, so two really good trainers could have faced off.

What you personally think runs contrary to Shiftry’s performance against pre-BF Torkoal (who was by far the weakest member of the HL team) which appears to be more in line with t-4/t-5.

He did say "average" though Torkoal could have been on the upswing leading to that BF performance. Ash was a finalist at the KL, yet most people would argue that Mr. Big and Reliable was a 'tier-4'/'bottom-middle-of-the-pack' Pokemon.

 

[Genaller]

That Aggron might have been very powerful. Part of what made HL so difficult was that it also had elimination 1 v 1s on top of everything else that followed, so two really good trainers could have faced off.

The Aggron feat gives an indication of Sceptile’s speed/evasion whereas the Glalie feat gives an indication of power + durability. If you really wanted to high ball scale Sceptile then you could even put it a bit over Glalie since Ice beats Grass yet their moves were still perfectly even with each other. You could also take the Morrison battle at face value and assume that Metang was his best giving Sceptile >= Glalie > Metang >= Gligar ~ Swellow + Grovyle which depending on where you put Grovyle and Swellow would put Glalie and Sceptile in contention for “tier-1” or pretty close to it (by my system they’d at least be an A rating by this scaling and they could even be bordering on A+).

He did say "average" though Torkoal could have been on the upswing leading to that BF performance. Ash was a finalist at the KL, yet most people would argue that Mr. Big and Reliable was a 'tier-4'/'bottom-middle-of-the-pack' Pokemon.

Fair enough then since by my ratings they’d on average be at a B- to B which by your system would be around the t-3/t-2 borderline. Let’s be real; Torkoal before BF was pretty much bottom feeder lvl before getting an insane boost at Oak’s lab (they make it explicit that it underwent training there). I really doubt Torkoal could get all that better in a day or 2 (I presume that was the time span between each league match at the HL). Noivern would be a C- for me which would be in “tier-4” by your system and in terms of ranking for me it’s anywhere from 28 - 30 out of the 39 currently tiered Pokémon which puts him arguably in the bottom quartile even for me. Noivern in a nutshell is Kalos Tauros; whereever Taruos is placed Noivern would follow.

 

[Genaller]

Isn't that more credit to Paul then as opposed to a mistake by Ash? Because of how idiotically the writers wrote Suicide Mountain, Torterra got thrown off a cliff of its own making, so it wasn't wrong for Ash to use Synthesis at the moment to heal it up. And because of how much they Worf Effect'd Torterra, they had it KO'd immediately by Pin Missile.

It’s still on Ash for letting Paul’s battle psychology initially get to him (I doubt XY Ash with his superior confidence/composure would have let Paul’s mind games affect him). The issue with Ash was that he was at times too focused on preservation. He should have just accepted that Torterra was going to loose that individual match up and focused on dealing as much damage as possible before falling rather than fruitlessly trying to heal (especially when he knows first-hand that Torterra gets vulnerable while healing). On a side note; I’m really not sure what Tomioka was thinking with suicide mountain (I guess even the best drop the ball once in a while).

XY Ash takes time to figure out strategies too. For example, he actually saw Aegislash previously used against Tierno (had time to think about it), yet the idea of using the wood to jam the scabbard didn't come up instantaneously. Not to mention, DP Ash might have not wanted to put Infernape out there while Drapion was still in play (maybe he figured Paul/Drapion would counterattack the Dig in some fashion). I thought the gambit of drawing out Blaze was so incredibly daring yet it's the type of ballsy-ness that you need to have to win a match of that high stakes; plus the subtle acknowledgement that Ash learned from Paul, and that both are opposite sides of the same coin when Ash, in a Paul-esque faction, intentionally puts his Pokemon out there to get brutally damaged in order for an underlying strategy (much like Torterra v Gliscor).

The counter here would be that Ash had no idea what type of field he would battle on till the match started so he wouldn’t have been able to think of the wood log strat beforehand, and such an idea would only be under serious consideration after Aegeslash broke all the trees in order to decrease Pikachu’s maneuverability both due to him no longer having the comfort of a forest environment as well as the ground becoming uneven making it more difficult for Pikachu to keep a stable footing. In that sense Ash didn’t really take much time to figure that strat out after it became a viable option (even in my hypothetical XY Ash would have at least used Staraptor before getting the eureka idea of underground Flare Blitz). If you wanted to undermine XY Ash’s tactical skills with the Sawyer battle, then there are better examples like not having Goodra use Rain Dance in order to weaken Slurpuff’s Flamethrower in order to have a better shot at overpowering it with Ice Beam since with no rain they were canceling each other out though such mistakes (like suicide mountain in general) were due to writer incompetency rather than Ash being a bad trainer.

I don’t see what Drapion could do to counter underground Flare Blitz. Perhaps Ash just didn’t want to get his key player Poisoned unless he had to. Sure I give Ash full credit for deliberately getting Infernape to Blaze though to fully appreciate what Ash did you’d need to understand the importance of stamina drain (which I presume we both do).

I don't see the mistake in Pikachu v Latios. The first direct collision was more of a stalemate, and only the second sent Pikachu flying. After that, Ash had Pikachu go atop Latios' back, and we all know the rest.

IIRC Pikachu seemed like it lost both of those clashes and also moaned after both of them. Honestly it felt really contrived that Latios didn’t have a healing move like Roost or Recover since it should have been obvious to Tobias that Dream Eater healing was a major reason for why Darkrai could effectively sweep teams. The actual reason is because such a healing move would render Pikachu’s chip damage tactic worthless though from an in-universe standpoint the only 2 reasons I can think of is that A) Latios was recently caught or B) Tobias is just plain stupid. I love the Tobias battle for how it made Ash look though there are several areas where it could have been written better hence why I wouldn’t put it in contention for Ash’s GOAT performance.

 

[Navin]

It’s still on Ash for letting Paul’s battle psychology initially get to him (I doubt XY Ash with his superior confidence/composure would have let Paul’s mind games affect him). The issue with Ash was that he was at times too focused on preservation. He should have just accepted that Torterra was going to loose that individual match up and focused on dealing as much damage as possible before falling rather than fruitlessly trying to heal (especially when he knows first-hand that Torterra gets vulnerable while healing). On a side note; I’m really not sure what Tomioka was thinking with suicide mountain (I guess even the best drop the ball once in a while).

XY Ash wouldn't have fared any better in that situation. The writing was so stacked against Torterra that there was no way around it. I'm not going to defend the awful writing by trying to rationalize it as somehow Ash being unable to accept Torterra was a lost cause and shouldn't have tried showcase Torterra's new move (because of course the writers are going to do that).

The counter here would be that Ash had no idea what type of field he would battle on till the match started so he wouldn’t have been able to think of the wood log strat beforehand,

There are only like 4 different types of fields. With how much credit you give XY Ash, during battle preparation it shouldn't take that long to think, "Hmm if I get Aegislash on forest field, I should use the logs to jam the scabbard."

and such an idea would only be under serious consideration after Aegeslash broke all the trees in order to decrease Pikachu’s maneuverability both due to him no longer having the comfort of a forest environment as well as the ground becoming uneven making it more difficult for Pikachu to keep a stable footing. In that sense Ash didn’t really take much time to figure that strat out after it became a viable option (even in my hypothetical XY Ash would have at least used Staraptor before getting the eureka idea of underground Flare Blitz). If you wanted to undermine XY Ash’s tactical skills with the Sawyer battle, then there are better examples like not having Goodra use Rain Dance in order to weaken Slurpuff’s Flamethrower in order to have a better shot at overpowering it with Ice Beam since with no rain they were canceling each other out though such mistakes (like suicide mountain in general) were due to writer incompetency rather than Ash being a bad trainer.

You can't play off the latter as "writer incompetency" but then criticize DP Ash for using Synthesis. Suicide Mountain and Torterra getting consistently Worf Effect'd was far more egregious and indicative of bad writing shafting a Pokemon much more than any of Ash's other Pokemon.

I don’t see what Drapion could do to counter underground Flare Blitz. Perhaps Ash just didn’t want to get his key player Poisoned unless he had to. Sure I give Ash full credit for deliberately getting Infernape to Blaze though to fully appreciate what Ash did you’d need to understand the importance of stamina drain (which I presume we both do).

Drapion is on the ground (unlike Ninjask) and maybe could have done something to disrupt the Dig. It's a more dangerous opponent than Ninjask, so Ash didn't want to expend his best Pokemon to defeat it.

IIRC Pikachu seemed like it lost both of those clashes and also moaned after both of them. Honestly it felt really contrived that Latios didn’t have a healing move like Roost or Recover since it should have been obvious to Tobias that Dream Eater healing was a major reason for why Darkrai could effectively sweep teams. The actual reason is because such a healing move would render Pikachu’s chip damage tactic worthless though from an in-universe standpoint the only 2 reasons I can think of is that A) Latios was recently caught or B) Tobias is just plain stupid. I love the Tobias battle for how it made Ash look though there are several areas where it could have been written better hence why I wouldn’t put it in contention for Ash’s GOAT performance.

Except Latios did have a defensive move in Light Screen to mitigate some of the damage, so I don't see the issue.

Or option C) Pikachu was just that good, which is why that was the singularly greatest feat of any of Ash's Pokemon by far.

 

[Genaller]

XY Ash wouldn't have fared any better in that situation. The writing was so stacked against Torterra that there was no way around it. I'm not going to defend the awful writing by trying to rationalize it as somehow Ash being unable to accept Torterra was a lost cause and shouldn't have tried showcase Torterra's new move (because of course the writers are going to do that).

XY Ash would have gotten the “Turing the battlefield upside down” eureka moment before even needing to send in Torterra.

There are only like 4 different types of fields. With how much credit you give XY Ash, during battle preparation it shouldn't take that long to think, "Hmm if I get Aegislash on forest field, I should use the logs to jam the scabbard."

Factually wrong. In Malva’s report we see a half land, half water field in Astird’s battle and in Ash vs Astrid we see a field resembling the place they battled in the movie. We don’t really know about the total number of fields and besides as stated before the log strat only became a viable option once Aegeslash cut the trees.

You can't play off the latter as "writer incompetency" but then criticize DP Ash for using Synthesis. Suicide Mountain and Torterra getting consistently Worf Effect'd was far more egregious and indicative of bad writing shafting a Pokemon much more than any of Ash's other Pokemon.

For starters the topic of comparison were Ash’s performances against Paul and Alain. Just to be clear Suicide Mountain specifically can be attributed to bad writing (and I don’t count that as a mistake for DP Ash as you can see in my original comparison post); however, using synthesis in that manner is narratively supported as a bad play (statement from Brock about Paul timing Pin Missile right after Synthesis to crush Ash’s spirit and statement from Regi back in the LA battle about the vulnerability during Synthesis). Both suicide mountain and the mistakes that Ash made against Sawyer are never acknowledged as “bad” in-universe hence why I attribute them more to writer incompetency rather than them being there for the sake of making Ash look like a bad trainer.

Drapion is on the ground (unlike Ninjask) and maybe could have done something to disrupt the Dig. It's a more dangerous opponent than Ninjask, so Ash didn't want to expend his best Pokemon to defeat it.

I can’t conceive of anything. If anything I’d imagine that Paul would have Drapion on guard looking at the area right below it and by the time Paul gets what Ash was actually going for it would be too late. Also Drapion is taking way more damage than Ninjask did since like you said it’s on the ground.

Except Latios did have a defensive move in Light Screen to mitigate some of the damage, so I don't see the issue.

You really think Light Screen has equivalent viability to healing moves like Recover or Roost? You really think Darkrai would’ve swept teams with the same degree of effectiveness if it had a defense augmenting move over Dream Eater? M’kay, if you say so.

Or option C) Pikachu was just that good, which is why that was the singularly greatest feat of any of Ash's Pokemon by far.

You know that you’re saying that “Tobias didn’t have Latios know a healing move because Pikachu was just that good”; right? No offense but that’s not even a coherent sentence. Meh... it wasn’t even Pikachu’s best feat but that’s irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Navin]

XY Ash would have gotten the “Turing the battlefield upside down” eureka moment before even needing to send in Torterra.

Or he may not have, just like against Aegislash.

Factually wrong. In Malva’s report we see a half land, half water field in Astird’s battle and in Ash vs Astrid we see a field resembling the place they battled in the movie. We don’t really know about the total number of fields and besides as stated before the log strat only became a viable option once Aegeslash cut the trees.

How is that "factually wrong"? Why does it matter if it's "half land, half water" or whatever. During battle preparation, with how much you want to credit XY Ash, he should have had that "eureka moment" of 'Hey if there are trees/ice/rocks, I can use those to jam the scabbard.' Well, he clearly didn't. I think it's fair to say that both DP and XY Ash have their moments where they can figure out what to do instantly, and other moments where they need to take time to unravel a strategy. DP Ash edges out because he aggressively switches.

For starters the topic of comparison were Ash’s performances against Paul and Alain. Just to be clear Suicide Mountain specifically can be attributed to bad writing (and I don’t count that as a mistake for DP Ash as you can see in my original comparison post); however, using synthesis in that manner is narratively supported as a bad play (statement from Brock about Paul timing Pin Missile right after Synthesis to crush Ash’s spirit and statement from Regi back in the LA battle about the vulnerability during Synthesis). Both suicide mountain and the mistakes that Ash made against Sawyer are never acknowledged as “bad” in-universe hence why I attribute them more to writer incompetency rather than them being there for the sake of making Ash look like a bad trainer.

It's not a bad play to heal your Pokemon after being thrown down a cliff because of how badly written that move was in the first place. That's just bad writing. It's also bad writing that a Pin Missile can somehow KO Torterra, a supposed tank, instantly after using a healing move in Synthesis. Again, the narrative clearly shows that was just a good move by Paul, not necessarily a bad move by Ash. The writers are not not going to showcase Torterra's new move.

I don't think you can compare anything to how badly Torterra got shafted in the anime.

I can’t conceive of anything. If anything I’d imagine that Paul would have Drapion on guard looking at the area right below it and by the time Paul gets what Ash was actually going for it would be too late. Also Drapion is taking way more damage than Ninjask did since like you said it’s on the ground.

Hmm idk, how about the number of times when a Pokemon smashed the ground and somehow popped out a Pokemon trying to do Dig?

You really think Light Screen has equivalent viability to healing moves like Recover or Roost? You really think Darkrai would’ve swept teams with the same degree of effectiveness if it had a defense augmenting move over Dream Eater? M’kay, if you say so. You know that you’re saying that “Tobias didn’t have Latios know a healing move because Pikachu was just that good”; right? No offense but that’s not even a coherent sentence. Meh... it wasn’t even Pikachu’s best feat but that’s irrelevant to the topic at hand.

So what if Latios didn't have a healing move? Light Screen was fine as it is. With Latios' sheer speed and power, healing isn't so much as a priority (especially if the opponent can easily damage back to the same extent again) as using Light Screen to allow him to break through any incoming damage en route to an attack, or in niche situations like against Pikachu.

 

[Genaller]

Or he may not have, just like against

Nah he would’ve found the answer quickly just like he did against Tyranitar.

How is that "factually wrong"? Why does it matter if it's "half land, half water" or whatever. During battle preparation, with how much you want to credit XY Ash, he should have had that "eureka moment" of 'Hey if there are trees/ice/rocks, I can use those to jam the scabbard.' Well, he clearly didn't. I think it's fair to say that both DP and XY Ash have their moments where they can figure out what to do instantly, and other moments where they need to take time to unravel a strategy. DP Ash edges out because he aggressively switches.

Well yes you were factually wrong in claiming that there were only 4 fields. I’ve never credited any version of Ash to make a specific game plan for what to do for several different battlefields beforehand (he’s literally never done that), so I don’t know what you’re getting at. For the forest field specifically the log strat didn’t even become a viable option (as I’ve continuously said) till Aegeslash cut the trees. Ash wouldn’t have Pikachu do that instead because A) it would leave Pikachu wide open for an attack (Aegeslash was able to initially pretend like it was trying to hit Pikachu in order to hide its true intent of destroying the trees though thanks to King’s Shield Pikachu can’t really do the same since Aegeslash wouldn’t even need to dodge a lot of the time) and B) the logs on the ground initially put Pikachu at a disadvantage by making the ground uneven. If you consider the time from when the trees got cut to be the start time for Ash to figure out the log strat then he didn’t really take all that long to figure it out. Nope; XY Ash has a noticeablly faster aggregate decision making speed (we could literally go through every “eureka” moment either Ash has come up with and the amount of time they took to do it, and XY Ash would win handidly) which I’d presume is thanks to his superior experience and composure. XY Ash also has better aggregate reaction time, command speed and is superior at move chaining. Whatever; Orange League (IIRC made almost as many switches as SL Ash did against Paul) and Johto League Ash >> Hoenn League Ash in switching (since the guy literally switched all of 0 times during 3 full battles), so it’s not like more switching = better in the slightlest (unless AG Ash was also a regression).

It's not a bad play to heal your Pokemon after being thrown down a cliff because of how badly written that move was in the first place. That's just bad writing. It's also bad writing that a Pin Missile can somehow KO Torterra, a supposed tank, instantly after using a healing move in Synthesis. Again, the narrative clearly shows that was just a good move by Paul, not necessarily a bad move by Ash. The writers are not not going to showcase Torterra's new move.

Rock Climb (at least as far as Tomioka was concerned) was not by itself a bad play; however, Regi’s statement during the Lake Acuity Battle makes it clear that a Pokémon can get vulnerable during (and hence immediately right after since there should exist an albeit small time interval after the move is done before the Pokémon can regain its guard) Synthesis yet Ash still chose to make that play hence it would be a mistake since Drapion was in a position where it could easily attack Torterra; a mistake induced by Paul’s excellent battle psychology, but still a mistake. The better play would’ve been to just accept that Torterra was going to loose and try to get in as much damage as possible before falling (so he should have continued using offensive moves after Rock Climb failed). This actually follows from the Lake Acuity battle where Regi states that Paul was using mind games to prevent Ash from battling soundly. The narrative in the SL battle was that Ash was initially still getting tripped up by Paul’s battle psychology, but he persevered and overcame this as the battle progressed. The difference is that XY Ash’s battling competency would never be affected by Paul’s battle psychology in the first place

I don't think you can compare anything to how badly Torterra got shafted in the anime.

Goodra. The way they butchered Ash’s first psuedo at the league was criminal. Which one was “worse” though is entirely a matter of subjectivity, so I’m not pushing the point any further.

Hmm idk, how about the number of times when a Pokemon smashed the ground and somehow popped out a Pokemon trying to do Dig?

I doubt Drapion can break the entire battlefield at once and good luck trying to catch Infernape with its great speed especially when Drapion can’t even see it. If Drapion tries doing that, it would likely just end up wasting stamina and underground Flare Blitz (which Paul never expected till it happened) would still go off resulting in Drapion taking even more damage due to greater stamina drain.

So what if Latios didn't have a healing move? Light Screen was fine as it is. With Latios' sheer speed and power, healing isn't so much as a priority (especially if the opponent can easily damage back to the same extent again) as using Light Screen to allow him to break through any incoming damage en route to an attack, or in niche situations like against Pikachu.

Darkrai also had loads of sheer power (OHKed a supposed tank in Torkoal) and speed (dodged Sceptile’s Quick Attack and performed its next move faster than him) though it’s fairly obvious that the utility from having a healing move in Dream Eater was a major part of what allowed Darkrai to sweep full teams with such effectiveness (Latios certainly isn’t doing that with nearly the same degree of effectiveness). I’m sorry, but I can’t in good conscience see Tobias’s Latios not knowing a healing move (despite that obviously being very helpful for Darkrai) as anything other than literal Plot Induced Stupidity, so that Pikachu’s whole Thunderbolt chip damage tactic would go smoothly. Regardless the Tobias performance meritocratically definitely isn’t Ash’s best performance from a pure skill standpoint (even if it made him look good).

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Alain vs Paul

• Who trains their pokemon harder?
• Whose training is more impressive?