[VGC] It's A Whole New Place With A Brand New Attitude

[ninijatt]

Hello. I've returned. It's been a while. I'm sure some of you are cringing at the mere sight of me or maybe you don't remember at all. Also wow, what happened? I tried doing some digging into it but I couldn't seem to find anything. 6th Gen RMT turned into a ghost town, there used to be tons of threads here last year but now there's barely any. What's up with that?

Anyway, here's what's going on. My friends are planning on competing in 2016 out of sheer "why the heck not" and they've dragged me into it. Not going to lie, though it sounds fun and why not? It wouldn't hurt. They've also designated me as their coach since I'm the only one who actually does competitive and has an actual competitive team in-game.

Thing is, I do singles. Which basically boils down to PS and smacking passerby mooks at symphonic and worlds this weekend (which was super fun and would undoubtedly go again if given the chance) I tried it out on PS for a couple of days now and it works fine in VGC for the most part. I originally didn't want to post here since VGC 2016 isn't even a thing yet and I REALLY don't want to breed and EV train anymore but I decided it couldn't hurt.

;143;

Snorlax @ Assualt Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 Hp 252 Attack 252 Sp. Def
Nature: Brave
- Return
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

So Snorlax is underrated. Special attacks bounce right off him and he's got enough firepower to bring down a bit of hurt while not getting hurt.

;065;

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Inner Focus (Because screw breeding!)/ Trace
EVs: 4 Hp 252 Sp. Attack 252 Speed
Nature: Modest
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Dazzling Gleam

I notice that I keep using the same four quite often. Alakazam, Dugtrio, Dragonite and Gengar. I thought using glass cannons in doubles wouldn't go over very well but I was wrong. Amoonguss is non-existant as long as I can use Psychic. Shadow Ball takes a huge chunk out of Aegislash who is a lot easier to deal with in doubles. Focus Blast is not used often but comes in handy. Dazzling Gleam is so good and I notice that I use it quite a bit more than I do in singles.

;149;

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 Hp 252 Attack 252 Speed
Nature: Adamant
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Extremespeed

This guy is used more than anyone else. I don't leave home without him. He does mad single target damage and is just all around great. Megamence doesn't survive Dragon Claw + Dazzling Gleam to even have a chance to do anything. Multiscale is in effect a long longer than it is in singles and thanks to having a buddy next to him, being burned, paralyzed or in trick room isn't even all that bad. At the very least he's got enough bulk to tank anything not super effective and recover with leftover while his ally dishes out damage.

;051;

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP 252 Attack 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch

Works much better here than in singles. Rock slide hits both and can flinch both. Earthquake + Dnite/Gengar is a devastating combo and can sweep most teams right off the bat.

;091;

Cloyster @ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 216 Attack 40 Sp. Attack 252 Speed
Nature: Naive
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump

Cloyster is the definition of high risk and high reward, right? Not here. While it does OHKO just about anything. Using Shell smash in doubles is even riskier than in singles. For this reason, I find myself using Cloyster the least out of everyone else.

;094;

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Sp. Attack 4 HP 252 Speed
Nature: Timid
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt

Gengar is so good. Dugtrio and Gengar is more often than not, my lead of choice. Rock Slide flinch while Gengar brings the hurt. If you're weak to fairy, you're not gonna be standing after ZamGar Double Gleam and your buddy's not going to be looking so good either. ZamGar Double Shadow Ball? Goodbye Aegislash. Also, Whisicott become non-existent thanks to Sludge Bomb.

Conclusion

That's all she wrote
Problems
-Mega Kanga. I can't do anything about Mega Kanga. I need a counter.
-Cloyster doesn't seem to pull it's weight and there's a sinking feeling that Snorlax and Dugtrio might be outclassed]
- Seem to have a 50% win rate. Either I sweep or get swept at the word "Go". I see a lot of people saying VGC is luck based and I'm really feeling it
-I REALLY don't want to breed and EV train anymore. Gen/cloning/hacking/ whatever you want to call it, is unacceptable and not an option by my standards
-Is actually an OU singles team, not VGC hence the title
-Hesitant to change, a bit too emotionally attached to this team

So have at it, guys!

 

[EKZ1505]

First off, in VGC you need Protect on pretty much EVERYTHING that isn't holding a Choice item or Assault Vest, or at least using Fake Out. Protect is the best move in the format. It can help burn turns of Trick Room or Tailwind, and give you free turns to attack if your opponent doubles into a Pokemon that you use Protect on.

Your Snorlax should use Ice Punch over Ice Beam since its attack is much better than its special attack. Since you have an Assault Vest, you should also put all the special defense investment into defense. Unless you have heavy Intimidate or Will-o-Wisp support, you're going to need the investment. Honestly Snorlax is severely outclassed by M-Kangaskhan (I know, that's boring though). My friend actually has used a Snorlax before (both in VGC, and in a VGC-style Multi-battle tournament with me), and if you insist on keeping it, I highly suggest you run Trick Room (or at least have a Trick Room option). He/we had a lot of success running it under Trick Room. Pursuit isn't really worth it either. I think my friend's had Double-Edge (Return is fine if you don't like the recoil), Fire Punch, Crunch (so much better than Pursuit here), and Heavy Slam (mainly for Sylveon/Gardevoir).

Alakazam should run Protect over Focus Blast. The accuracy definitely is not worth it in VGC. The battles can be over way too quickly to risk a miss on a 70% accuracy move, especially on a frail Pokemon like Alakazam. I also suggest you run Psychic over Psyshock. Many of the bulky things weak to Psychic-moves (M-Venusaur and Amoongus, for example), generally have more investment on the physical side defensively. One of the best sets I've seen actually runs HP Ice (I know, screw breeding) to hit things like Landorus-T and M-Salamence, which are extremely common, and you may want to consider being Timid instead of Modest, which guarantees you are faster than Max Speed Adamant Choice Scarf Lando-T. I would definitely replace Dazzling Gleam with HP Ice if possible, as Dazzling Gleam is extremely situational at best (pretty much only good for surprising Hydreigon). While a small thing, Synchronize is probably your best ability choice before mega-evolving, as you can at least come in on a predicted Will-o-Wisp (or rare Toxic) and get your opponent back. Skill Swap is another fun option (especially with Trace).

I love Dragonite, but he's not as good in VGC as he is in OU. Physical Mega Salamence outclasses him as a set-up dragon (M-Gyarados also does as a D-Dance set-up user). At least run Protect over Fire Punch (or D-Dance if you want to rely on Weakness Policy), and maybe consider giving it Weakness Policy, as you'll see a lot of non-STAB Ice moves, and I think Multiscale will help you survive Hyper Voice from Sylveon and M-Gardevoir.

One Pokemon you may want to consider adding is Volcarona. Aaron "Cybertron" Zheng (arguably the most well-known and knowledgable VGC player) featured one of his friend's teams on his YouTube channel that had a M-Alakazam. Alakazam is EXTREMELY weak to Sucker Punch from M-Kangaskhan and Bisharp, so Rage Powder from a fairly bulky Volcarona (with Flame Body, holding a Rocky Helmet I believe) actually nicely supported Alakazam, especially since his could outspeed and OHKO both Lando-T and Terrakion (the two most common users of Rock Slide, which Volcarona is x4 weak to). Volcarona has great synergy as well because it can scare off Steel types like Aegislash for M-Alakazam.

Dugtrio is honestly terrible. It's just too frail and doesn't hit hard enough. There are many better Pokemon to spam EQ or Rock Slide. If you want to have a "Trap" team, consider using M-Gengar or Gothitelle (both of which are always featured on Perish Trap teams, and the latter is good under Trick Room as well), but you'll have to completely rework the team (and a lot of people hate Perish Trap since they consider it too passive).

Cloyster isn't that good either, but it can be decent if used and supported well. Again, it needs Protect. Most people I've seen use it actually drop the water move in favor of Rock Blast and Icicle Spear. Focus Sash is probably best for him.

Gengar is another Pokemon that is best with a Focus Sash (if not a mega). Gengar is usually best with Will-o-Wisp, Icy Wind (very handy speed control, which is EXTREMELY important in VGC), and then Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb/Protect. With Will-o-Wisp, M-Kangaskhan generally cannot touch him.

Your team right now is incredibly frail and has no form of speed control (Icy Wind, Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, etc.). Simply put, VGC is completely different from singles, especially OU. You may be ok if you want to hang around on Showdown in the lower ladder, but if you plan to go to tournaments or battle on the Battle Spot ladder, I see the team having a lot of trouble unfortunately.

If you were interested at all in the M-Alakazam team I mentioned, you can find it here under his "Road to Ranked" series in videos #158-166: https://www.youtube.com/user/CybertronProductions/playlists . If you're interested in learning about VGC in general, I highly recommend both his channel and Alex Ogloza's channel (the 2014 US Masters Champ in VGC). Both always feature great teams and have incredible analysis to help viewers improve.

 

[ninijatt]

Thanks, you're response is much more helpful than I was expecting. Thanks for pointing out Snorlax and Alakazam's movesets. They actually DO have Crunch and Psychic respectively. I don't know why I wrote what I did.

Ice Beam on Snorlax takes out a huge chunk from Lando and anything else 4x weak to Ice but if I remember correctly, Ice Punch is not obtainable in Gen 6 by normal means? Also it makes me feels super pro being all unconventional with Ice Beam but admittedly, Ice Punch would be better. I already have M-Zam so M-Kanga is out of the question and I don't have Magic Guard so I can't switch over to LO.

I think I might take replace Focus Blast with Protect since while a fighting type move does come in handy, I notice I don't use it as much as the other moves and it would be as simple as using TMs to go back and forth. No problem there. I don't know if I'd want to part with Dazzling Gleam though. I've gotten a double KO with it on more than one occasion and it hits anything weak to fairy pretty hard. It makes a killer combo with Dragonite or Gengar too.

I've been having Great success with Dragonite. I don't think I want to part with Fire Punch since going to and from the Move tutor to get it back when I want to do singles is a major pain. I will admit he's not as great as he is in OU but he can deal serious damage and tank hits pretty well, not to mention leftovers helps keep mutiscale up. But I may consider (Again with the move tutor) switching D-Dance with protect since I usually only get the speed buff because of Intimidate. Again, switching Mega is a no go without reworking the team from the ground up.

Volcarona is super interesting and I'm not objected to breeding and training one or two more pokemon. I believe in having one personalized team to be THE team that defines me but I can think of it like phoning a friend for the tournament. It sounds silly, I'll admit but that's how I roll. My favorite thing you said about Volcorona is that it can counter M-Kanga.

Now I failed to say something about Dugtrio. Which I guess I was just tired and left out a few things when I typed this up. Dugtrio can out speed ZardY, Talonflame and Volcorona (Brave Bird is an exception) and OHKO with rock slide. Lando and Terrakion aren't fast enough to do that (unless scarfed which I avoid like the plague) I don't think there's another EQ/Rock Slide spammer that can do that. Choice isn't an option since I need to be able to use both moves to deal with Tyranitar and other things weak to Rock and Ground.

As much as it pains me to say this, Cloyster is probably going to be the one who gets replaced with Volcorona. Volcorona for VGC and Cloyster for singles. That's all right with me for the most part. If I just drop the water move, I can't do anything about steel types. I was actually thinking about replacing it with Blastoise to be perfectly honest.

Item clause prevents me from using Sash on either Cloyster or Gengar for the time being but I think I might replace T-Bolt with Will-o-Wisp/Icy Wind/ Protect (Move tutor issue with icy wind though) or maybe either Thunder Wave but I don't think Gengar can learn that. I find myself only using T-Bolt is the event of a Politoad anyway.

I want to try Battle Spot but the rumors about the whole hacked pokemon deleting save data thing has got me thinking it's better safe than sorry so until that's fixed in NA, I'll be sticking with PS.

But yeah, super glad you took the time to write that very well thought out response. I realize how sarcastic that sounds, but I mean it. I really appreciate that you took into account my dread for the long and arduous process of breeding and training. You were super helpful and I think I'll check out the channels you mentioned in addition to the "Road to Ranked" team.
So thanks again!

 

[EKZ1505]

Ice Punch is an ORAS move tutor move for Snorlax now. Even Intimidated, your Snorlax's Ice Punch does more than Ice Beam would (and this doesn't factor in that many Lando-T's actually hold an Assault Vest, or may be invested to take a non-STAB Ice Beam from things with higher Sp Atk than Snorlax like Suicune):
-1 252+ Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 124-148 (75.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Snorlax Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 116-140 (70.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragonite's Leftovers won't really help keep Multiscale up, unless you took damage from a very weak move. If you're worried about keeping Multiscale up (generally not something to worry about since double-targeting is a very real possibility, especially if they figure out you don't have Protect), consider Roost at least.

I still don't think Dugtrio is even close to being worth it. It's attack is mediocre already, and Rock Slide is not STAB. Factor in (potential) Intimidate drops, and the fact that Charizard and Volcarona almost always are heavily invested in bulk (Charizard, for example, if often trained to live a Rock Slide from Lando-T, which is much stronger than Dugtrio), and Dugtrio really doesn't threaten any of those Pokemon at all. Terrakion does outspeed both Charizard and Volcarona, and Landorus-T is most commonly used with a Scarf (to (annoyingly) spam Rock Slide), and can also Intimidate things.

I wouldn't worry about the hacked Pokemon save data thing. I definitely understand your concerns, but that only happened to a couple people in Japan, and they've put hack checks in to prevent that from happening again. I haven't had any issues at all, and I haven't heard anything about anyone else encountering this problem either. No one had even heard about this being an issue until the Pokemon company itself made the announcement.

I'm very glad to help I've really gotten into VGC, and any time I see someone post a RMT here for it, I hope to help the person at least a little and help the format grow. I definitely enjoy singles still, but I love the combinations and strategies that double battles allow. If you ever need help breeding (I have a pretty good trading list in the shiny trading thread, so I have access to a lot of stuff to breed with or trade for), or would like to talk VGC strategies or practice battling (whether VGC or even singles), feel free to let me know

 

[ninijatt]

Thank you, based ORAS. Only a 5% increase isn't really much of an improvement though. But an improvement is still an improvement.

Looking back on it, Dragonite DOES get hit mainly by weak attacks like Rotom-Wash T-bolt or things it resists anyway. I'm not at all worried about keeping it up, just that keeping it up helps and that leftovers can do that since the main reason it gets hit by the aforementioned Rotom-Wash T-bolt and such is to remove Multiscale and leftovers just heals it back.

I guess I'll consider changing up Dugtrio to Terrakion. Not a big fan of legends, though. I imagine catching one with the right IVs and Nature is just the worst.

Thanks again, though! I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing you once VGC 2016 rolls around.

 

[EKZ1505]

Keep in mind that's Intimidated though. If Snorlax comes in after Landorus-T (or Salamence, etc.), Ice Punch does a LOT more than Ice Beam. I'm still not seeing the benefit to Leftovers, unless a single Rotom-W Thunderbolt that does little that Leftovers can bring you back up to your Scale immediately. Most people end up trading for their legends, but if you aren't thrilled with that idea, Excadrill (with sand support, or a Choice Scarf Mold Breaker set) and Krookodile (usually with a Choice Scarf and Intimidate) are two other lessor Lando-T replacements that still outclass Dugtrio.
Edit: Scarf Mamoswine too, especially since it doesn't really fear the Genies at all!