Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[bel9]

My thoughts? They're games. They're not meant to be over-analyzed like this.

The unexamined life is not worth living playing.

Too many people getting offended by things not worth getting mad over.

You're actually assuming that their views and perspectives are not worth sharing, thus only strengthening need for an overall dialogue

Is having the majority of women fall into tropes wrong? Many not, maybe so. Is it really worth trying to stop?

I guess not if you like uninteresting characters and stories.

 

[Jb]

You're actually assuming that their views and perspectives are not worth sharing, thus only strengthening need for an overall dialogue

Maybe so. You can share what you want, and feel how you want. But ''complaining'' about something that isn't really a problem in the first place...

I guess not if you like uninteresting characters and stories.

Women video game stereotypes play little part, very little in interesting stories and characters. Take Xenoblade for example, all the main girls fall into a stereotype, yet they are among the most interesting characters in the game. The cause of uninteresting female characters isn't because she got kidnap. It's due to the lack of character development and plain ol' shitty writing. If anything, people should be trying to change the way developers write terrible characters, and not what tropes they fall into.

 

[ManhattanTheStarr]

Maybe so. You can share what you want, and feel how you want. But ''complaining'' about something that isn't really a problem in the first place...



Women video game stereotypes play little part, very little in interesting stories and characters. Take Xenoblade for example, all the main girls fall into a stereotype, yet they are among the most interesting characters in the game. The cause of uninteresting female characters isn't because she got kidnap. It's due to the lack of character development and plain ol' shitty writing. If anything, people should be trying to change the way developers write terrible characters, and not what tropes they fall into.

I don't see how this dilemma could be considered "not a problem". These stereotypes of women in gaming is actually effecting how individuals view them in the real world. If a certain group of beings are always being characterized as useless/mindless/vile, etc., it's near guaranteed that those exposed to such characterizations will begin to associate those people with negative traits. Sure, it may not be too big of a deal to rant about continuously, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem in any way.

 

[Jb]

I don't see how this dilemma could be considered "not a problem". These stereotypes of women in gaming is actually effecting how individuals view them in the real world.

This is like saying people playing shooters will all turn into blood thirsty killers.

 

[Spock]

My thoughts? They're games. They're not meant to be over-analyzed like this. Too many people getting offended by things not worth getting mad over. Is having the majority of women fall into tropes wrong? Many not, maybe so. Is it really worth trying to stop?

FUNNY i could say the exact same thing about black people and how they're represented in pop culture and you'd probably flip out but when it's comes to women

 

[ManhattanTheStarr]

This is like saying people playing shooters will all turn into blood thirsty killers.

And that is partially true. Except definitely not an everyday thing. The chances of someone going on a killing spree for playing too much Call of Duty is not as common an occurrence as someone being fooled into believing that a stereotype presented in numerous games is reality. Besides, it's mainly social issues and difficulties during childhood that result in mass murderers. Video games perpetuating stereotypes over and over again, however can definitely alter an individual's way of thinking. But don't get me twisted here; I'm very aware that negative views towards women can also be formed through personal, real life experiences.

 

[bel9]

This is like saying people playing shooters will all turn into blood thirsty killers.

Saying culturally produced and consumed objects and experiences condition and influence the viewer's subjective perceptions on culture is different than the simple argument "violent games= violent people."

In your previous example, you lost me at Xenoblade. On the other hand, though, you appear to be the one getting worked and complaining now.

 

[Spock]

yeah it's not like people's perceptions are ever influenced by the media or culture they consume

 

[KillerDraco]

To be honest, I don't think this is really exclusively a video game issue. Movies, TV shows, books, comics, and other forms of entertainment all utilize the Damsel in Distress (which I'll just shorten to DiD from here) trope, and have been long before Video Games have existed. It even says that in the video in question. So the point of this isn't "Omg Video games are evil sexist things". Is the trope overused? Definitely. However, I don't think it's quite as damning as they'd have us believe. Media of any sort can influence people, but it's only just that; influence. I believe that's what Jb was implying; just as not all people who play GTA will turn into violent killers, not all girls who play video games will be shoehorned into the traditionally "weak feminine" archetype. Media is just one influence, and it comes down to the individual to accept what they see, or reject it.

Some people are more susceptible to the media influences, and they're the ones most susceptible to the effects of stereotypes. Just as many, however, will play the games, and just reject what they see. Not every girl who plays a Mario game is going to suddenly turn around and think "I should be like Princess Peach because that's what this game is telling me".

Even so, I think the take home message here isn't "You shouldn't play these video games because they're sexist and that's bad". It's more a matter of wanting more diversity outside of the typical DiD/love interest/fanservice object tropes. And while I'd agree that a little more variety would be nice (especially with Mario, I found the plot or lack thereof for the New Super Mario Bros. games to be terribly lazy and uninspired), again, I'd have to say it's not quite the end-all damning effect on females that some might make it out to be. But that's just this guy's opinion, and I'm prepared for any backlash that might come my way as a result of saying this.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with all of the examples given, especially the Shiek -> Zelda one. But, that's another story altogether.

 

[Jb]

FUNNY i could say the exact same thing about black people and how they're represented in pop culture and you'd probably flip out but when it's comes to women

Nah, I wouldn't care.

And that is partially true. Except definitely not an everyday thing. The chances of someone going on a killing spree for playing too much Call of Duty is not as common an occurrence as someone being fooled into believing that a stereotype presented in numerous games is reality. Besides, it's mainly social issues and difficulties during childhood that result in mass murderers. Video games perpetuating stereotypes over and over again, however can definitely alter an individual's way of thinking. But don't get me twisted here; I'm very aware that negative views towards women can also be formed through personal, real life experiences.

Fair enough, I'm sure there are some games, actually quite bit where women are clearly objectified. That pretty much should stop, depending on the game in question. But i'm sure rescuing Zelda isn't going to make many people think lowly of women.

Saying culturally produced and consumed objects and experiences condition and influence the viewer's subjective perceptions on culture is different than the simple argument "violent games= violent people."

In your previous example, you lost me at Xenoblade. On the other hand, though, you appear to be the one getting worked and complaining now.

I agree it wasn't the best example. For the Xenoblade part, I'm just saying that good writing and character development go hand in hand with eliminating this stereotype.

yeah it's not like people's perceptions are ever influenced by the media or culture they consume

No, you're right. But in the same way people are influenced buy the media, or games for this topic, there are just as many who aren't. The average age gamers is around 30ish. It's safe to assume that people around this age already have their views on women, or any subject in general. I agree that games can influence people but getting rid of the damsel in distress isn't the way to go about it. She didn't even talk about the hundreds upon hundreds of games that portray the female in the same light as the light as the common male.

 

[PokeMaster366]

Too bad Other M was so awful it made Samus a weak girl who needed strong men to do things for her.

We can owe that failure to the "sexist" views of Team Ninja.

 

[Cometk]

She got some serious hate from some misogynist for being a woman with an opinion.

i think "misogynist" is an often abused term in that now it's used to describe someone who tries to argue with any person who identifies as a feminist. my thing with feminism is that it's a movement that tries to say that its goal is gender equality when it only focuses on the problems of one party, while neglecting the other. besides that, if any feminist actually wanted gender equality, why would they call themselves a feminist? why not a name that refers to neither gender so that all people, regardless of sex, could participate, like "equalist" perhaps?

think about it: say i wanted to end conflict in the israel-palestine issue and were to start a movement to do that, would it be a good idea to call it "israelism"?

 

[ParaChomp]

Women video game stereotypes play little part, very little in interesting stories and characters. Take Xenoblade for example, all the main girls fall into a stereotype, yet they are among the most interesting characters in the game. The cause of uninteresting female characters isn't because she got kidnap. It's due to the lack of character development and plain ol' shitty writing. If anything, people should be trying to change the way developers write terrible characters, and not what tropes they fall into.

Exactly, now let me get to some platforming already!

No, you're right. But in the same way people are influenced buy the media, or games for this topic, there are just as many who aren't. The average age gamers is around 30ish. It's safe to assume that people around this age already have their views on women, or any subject in general. I agree that games can influence people but getting rid of the damsel in distress isn't the way to go about it. She didn't even talk about the hundreds upon hundreds of games that portray the female in the same light as the light as the common male.

They aren't as common on top of that, you have to do whatever it takes to win the argument. Leave no holes and the way she keeps hammering facts puts a lot of stress on you. There are many holes though like how you said that there are many strong female video game protagonists that aren't fan service. Heck, she's even fallen into the trope of the overactive anti-feminist.

We can owe that failure to the "sexist" views of Team Ninja.

It wasn't Team Ninja, it was Yoshio Sakamoto. He wrote the script and regulated Team Ninja to solely the Wii-mote as they programmed.

 

[Zazie]

i think "misogynist" is an often abused term in that now it's used to describe someone who tries to argue with any person who identifies as a feminist. my thing with feminism is that it's a movement that tries to say that its goal is gender equality when it only focuses on the problems of one party, while neglecting the other. besides that, if any feminist actually wanted gender equality, why would they call themselves a feminist? why not a name that refers to neither gender so that all people, regardless of sex, could participate, like "equalist" perhaps?

Mostly because it is based on the idea that it is women who are less priveleged in society. I am not crazy about the whole gender equality definition thing myself because the focus of feminism should be on women's issues.* Because focusing on women doesn't mean you are bringing men down in the slightest.

Now if someone else wants to deal with men's issues that's okay, but in order to sucessfully do so that means breaking down gender stereotypes and norms, not attacking feminists. (sadly so called "men's rights activists", end up doing the opposite which isn't doing anyone any favours and is just sending society backwards.)

Misogynist isn't an abused by term in the slightest however. I have yet to ever hear it used incorrectly.

*Particularly notable is that some feminists can be rather transphobic, which is in essence against true gender equality.


But in regards to the video. I thought it was pretty good. I was mostly enthused by all the obscure video game clips tossed in. (totally outside the point)

 

[Vernikova]

why not a name that refers to neither gender so that all people, regardless of sex, could participate, like "equalist" perhaps?

She'd get blown up in a boat with her brother.

 

[ParaChomp]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the world would be a lot better if we were all hermaphrodites.

 

[はるひ]

i think "misogynist" is an often abused term in that now it's used to describe someone who tries to argue with any person who identifies as a feminist. my thing with feminism is that it's a movement that tries to say that its goal is gender equality when it only focuses on the problems of one party, while neglecting the other. besides that, if any feminist actually wanted gender equality, why would they call themselves a feminist? why not a name that refers to neither gender so that all people, regardless of sex, could participate, like "equalist" perhaps?

think about it: say i wanted to end conflict in the israel-palestine issue and were to start a movement to do that, would it be a good idea to call it "israelism"?

god second proposal

I agree, if I wanted both genders to be equal.... yeah it makes a whole lot of sense. But at the same time, feminists feel strongly about women's rights and MRA's (contrary to popular belief) feel strongly about male double standards thus their movements focus primarily on such. I for one, feel strongly about stopping double standards (especially when it comes to men) but I don't go with either group. I guess I can say I'm just the person who hates double standards.

I also agree that like "homophobia", "misogynist" (even misandry) is a rather abused term in the political world and it makes me wonder if people even know what it means. Disagreeing with a feminist does not make you a woman hater.

 

[John Madden]

FUNNY i could say the exact same thing about black people and how they're represented in pop culture and you'd probably flip out but when it's comes to women

don't even get me started about black people in film because i could go on for days

MRA's (contrary to popular belief) feel strongly about male double standards

neat, name a few that don't have to do w/ foodservice

(actually please don't, i don't want this thread moving to the debate forum)

 

[Cometk]

Misogynist isn't an abused by term in the slightest however. I have yet to ever hear it used incorrectly.

i'll rephrase: used a bit too liberally

it's more so used emphatically to insult someone than it is to represent someone actually expressing the emotions of hating women and it being an ingrained part of their personality. i don't really know how to explain much further so i'll leave it as ambiguous as that

 

[Manna]

She didn't even talk about the hundreds upon hundreds of games that portray the female in the same light as the light as the common male.

It's just the introduction. She's not done by a longshot.

And if that's the case then there must be thousands that do not portray the two in the same light. You could find plenty of strong male characters, but strong female ones? It's not even close to as many strong males you can find.