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vs Alan or vs Cameron

Janovy

Banned
I'd say Alain because whereas people were already dissatisfied with BW, nobody expected the mess that would become the Kalos League.
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
Vs Alain. Most of us didn't expect much from BW anyway, so although losing to Cameron in a 6v5 is just sad, nothing will top vs Alain. All this hype for this. Unbelievable.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
Still Cameron for me. At least Alain was competent and knew a full battle was six Pokemon.
 

Markerz

Well-Known Member
Out of morbid curiosity, I did a Google search with 'Pokemon anime discussion' to see if there were many other forums that took note of the battle vs. Alain. There's quite a lot of chatter. Reddit even has a picture of Greninja.. well, it's morbid, but if you're curious, look at the Pokemon forums (Interestingly enough, the anime is a low topic of interest on /r/Pokemon, but naturally it exploded today).

I wasn't an active forumgoer during the BW days, how does it compare to this in terms of scale?
 

Janovy

Banned
I wasn't an active forumgoer during the BW days, how does it compare to this in terms of scale?
People were pissed, I believe, but not to this degree. This is the most furious I've seen the fandom in a while.
 

Emperor Empoleon

Honor of Kalos
Alain lol. The bitterness and despair is strong because, for the first time, people had hope. People had 'The narrative!'. But alas...
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
Weirdly enough vs Alain rivals the amount of salt in the Dead Sea. However, as a whole, the Unova League was worse. Expectations were low in the latter while in the former well, the writers pulled the school bully act and dangled the trophy in Ash's face and tried to make him jump for it and then tossed it to Alain.
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
Vs alain and im still bitter with it
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
The questions vague and premises that the viewer is highly critical of either battles. Personally I think there are other battles that were worse and had a more unfair outcome than either Cameron or Alain. As far as which is better as a plot point the loss to Cameron was more typical of the series. He was a standard friendly rival who just happened to be a fair bit better than Ash, with some quirky personality traits thrown as comic relief. Alain is a slightly unrealistic character given he seem to have entered the league as an afterthought and the win is inconsequential to him where as Ash and other trainers have worked for months to be there, and he's marred by his involvement in Team Flare. It's a consistent point now that Ash doesn't win the league - Why should he. It's never been cannon that he's anything more than a skilled but still average trainer. Think of it this way - He's been among the top 16, 8, 8, 4, 8 and now 2 of a competition of between 64 to over 500 or greater trainers all of whom had proved themselves by winning 8 badges in their region. That isn't insignificant even in the fictional cannon.
 

TheMarvelMC

Kalos League Victor!
Alain. Why? Simple: Everything built up to him beating Alain but he still lost. At least with Cameron, he came out of nowhere.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
I'd say Alain because whereas people were already dissatisfied with BW, nobody expected the mess that would become the Kalos League.

Uh, the moment we saw that the Semifinals were getting underway in the third episode, people knew it was going to be crap.

People were pissed, I believe, but not to this degree. This is the most furious I've seen the fandom in a while.

Agreed. But I'm also getting this feeling that the people who are the most vocal about it, are just whiny 12-year-olds using an excuse that just isn't valid for them at all: "We've waited 20-years!!!" followed by more whining at the level of prepubescence..

Alain lol. The bitterness and despair is strong because, for the first time, people had hope. People had 'The narrative!'. But alas...

Yeah, I never got the narrative-part. Sure, Ash had never won against Alan. Normally, that would constitute for a "narrative"-win, hence why I argued that he was going to have to lose to Sawyer before the league at least once (which happened). However, considering Alan still had a part to play in the Team Flare-arc, one could easily say: "The narrative is getting stretched a bit, and the conclusion of their "rivalry" will happen there, instead of the league. Simple as that. And what do you know, Lysandre is holding Manon above Alan's head in order for him to do his bidding, or at least that seems like it.

The questions vague and premises that the viewer is highly critical of either battles. Personally I think there are other battles that were worse and had a more unfair outcome than either Cameron or Alain. As far as which is better as a plot point the loss to Cameron was more typical of the series. He was a standard friendly rival who just happened to be a fair bit better than Ash, with some quirky personality traits thrown as comic relief. Alain is a slightly unrealistic character given he seem to have entered the league as an afterthought and the win is inconsequential to him where as Ash and other trainers have worked for months to be there, and he's marred by his involvement in Team Flare. It's a consistent point now that Ash doesn't win the league - Why should he. It's never been cannon that he's anything more than a skilled but still average trainer. Think of it this way - He's been among the top 16, 8, 8, 4, 8 and now 2 of a competition of between 64 to over 500 or greater trainers all of whom had proved themselves by winning 8 badges in their region. That isn't insignificant even in the fictional cannon.

I honestly doubt that Cameron was a fair bit better. Sending out a Ferrothorn vs. a Fire-type and a Swanna vs. a Pikachu just doesn't agree with that. Yes, Ash used x4 weak pokémon against their weaknesses before, heck, even vs. Alan, but in those cases, their probably was a reason behind the madness (Gliscor had Fire Fang, Steel Wing and X-scissor vs. Snover, and Ash sent out Noivern before Alan sent out Weavile), but in Cameron's case, there wasn't. He just had a strong Hydreigon and a strong Riolu, which just happened to evolve at exactly the most convenient time imaginable.

I don't think the league was inconsequential for Alan. He wanted to fight Ash while he was at his most determined, and we all know that would be at the league. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that some trainers have worked months in order to get eight badges, and he seemed to do it in a lot less time. Heck, even Sawyer's badge quest took half as long as Ash's, and you don't see anybody berating him either. The point also being that it isn't as if Alan didn't train for months in order to become as strong as he is. We know what Alan was capable of for a while now, so the fact that he's able to get eight badges in what's probably record time, does not suspend the realm of believability.

And yes, Ash's achievements aren't insignificant, but try telling that to the hordes of prepubescent wailers that have now swamped this forum and are sending threats to the writers twitter accounts.. "ASH DIDN'T WIN!!!! TWENTY YEARSS!!!!" Ffs. Shut up. You weren't even born when he got Top16, because his Charizard didn't listen. Now he got Top2. >.>
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Alain obviously, in the shittest league ever (And i am not saying that because Ash lost, but because we only saw two full battles).
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
I honestly doubt that Cameron was a fair bit better. Sending out a Ferrothorn vs. a Fire-type and a Swanna vs. a Pikachu just doesn't agree with that. Yes, Ash used x4 weak pokémon against their weaknesses before, heck, even vs. Alan, but in those cases, their probably was a reason behind the madness (Gliscor had Fire Fang, Steel Wing and X-scissor vs. Snover, and Ash sent out Noivern before Alan sent out Weavile), but in Cameron's case, there wasn't. He just had a strong Hydreigon and a strong Riolu which just happened to evolve at exactly the most convenient time imaginable

Using Pokémon that have a disadvantage doesn't make a trainer bad. Ash has done it on several occasions and won including absurd match ups like Grovyle vs Altaria. Cameron probably believed his strategy for dealing with type advantages would work - Samurott clearly had a method of dealing with electric type. At the end of the day the result speaks for itself. He won one Pokémon down. Plus he still raised his strong Hydreigon and strong Riolu, which is of itself impressive. Yes Riolu came through for Cameron when he needed it too - but that is kind of the point of the series. And BW saw Ash win several battles thanks to a last minute evolution. Having a few strong Pokémon that were able to take out Ash's team isn't that different to Alain, who spends most of his time battling with Charizard.

I don't think the league was inconsequential for Alan. He wanted to fight Ash while he was at his most determined, and we all know that would be at the league. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that some trainers have worked months in order to get eight badges, and he seemed to do it in a lot less time.

It's an odd length to go to, to specifically qualify for a competition simply to compete against one specific competitor. That's clearly the wrong reason to want to enter the League, especially given he'd have to be fairly confident that they would even get to battle - either he or Ash could have been taken out by another trainer making the exercise futile. The fact that you have a character who is so insanely strong he can enter the league essentially for a giggle, when the show implies value in the work and sacrifice it takes to get there seems so unrealistic. He almost has the Mary Sue-ish trait of being implausibly talented. It may be Pokémon but think about it in these terms, how many Olympic Athletes doping aside have not had to spend years working towards qualifying for that competition. The trophy won't mean anything to him - he'll probably give it to Mairin

Heck, even Sawyer's badge quest took half as long as Ash's, and you don't see anybody berating him either.

I've been critical of the speed of Sawyer's progress too. That's slightly more understandable though. Ash has Serena, Clemont and Bonnie slowing him down as well as having to attend showcases, help various COTD with random problems and fend off constant Team Rocket attacks.

We know what Alan was capable of for a while now, so the fact that he's able to get eight badges in what's probably record time, does not suspend the realm of believability.

It's not necessarily just the ability to earn them, it's the travel time too. Kalos is not a small place. Ash has been travelling around it for months. Short of any Rail, Bus or domestic airlines operating within that Alain could have taken advantage of being able to do that is slightly unbelievable. Even Charizard couldn't fly him around the entire region (although to be fair it can in the games).

And yes, Ash's achievements aren't insignificant, but try telling that to the hordes of prepubescent wailers that have now swamped this forum and are sending threats to the writers twitter accounts.. "ASH DIDN'T WIN!!!! TWENTY YEARSS!!!!" Ffs. Shut up. You weren't even born when he got Top16, because his Charizard didn't listen. Now he got Top2. >.>

"prepubescent wailers?" It's not fair to dismiss everyone who voices a negative opinion on the episode as a wailer. It's fine to voice criticism and review if done so with solid arguments and not in a personal manner - Most Newspapers and media outlets publish reviews of films, books and TV series and can on many occasions be quite negative about the material. But it would not be right to call say the ABC's at the movies "wailers." That being said, threats are clearly unacceptable.
 
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UltimateNinja

Cute Redditmon
Alain is competent. Defeated ten megas including one of an E4 in a row.

Ash losing to him was bitter yes, but only because he was so close of winning a league once. Ash losing to Alain is believable since Alain sweept many matches with his Charizard alone. So I can't see why people are *****ing about Ash losing except him not winning the league.
 

SlimeStack

Well-Known Member
Alain stung more purely because of when and how he beat Ash. It didn't add anything to their rivalry arc, and the only reason he won is because Greninja fainted for no reason. At least the last time Greninja fainted for an actual reason that advanced the plot. If he absolutely must have lost to Alain here, they should have given him a real reason why Ash still can't win after specifically dealing with the aftermath of his previous loss and resolving the issue. Otherwise they should have had Ash beat Alain in the semifinals and lose to someone else. Ash's result would have been the same but not at the cost of the story.

I only thought Ash might win because I assumed the writers would actually try to advance their rivalry arc and the fact that they were doing so in the finals made it seem like he could win. But instead they completely undermined that arc and even skipped most of the league just to preserve the status quo. Generally speaking when Ash loses it doesn't get in the way of his story; even Tobias in all his trolling glory didn't push Ash's matches off screen or interfere with Paul's rivalry arc. This was just sad.

So basically, any of these outcomes would have been better:

1) Ash beating Alain in the finals, the natural next step to their rivalry

2) Ash beating Alain in the semifinals, same as above but prevents Ash from winning his potential last ever league (no idea why the writers want that now of all times, but it's at least in line with previous leagues)

3) Alain beating Ash with an actual reason, just like the previous losses. Was there something stopping Ash from going all out with Greninja? Does Alain have an actual way beyond plot armor of stopping Greninja no matter how strong he gets? We may never know, because after being Ash's strongest Pokémon for the last however many episodes, he inexplicably fainted within a couple of minutes

The Team Flare arc will inevitably bring them face to face again, and battle or not, their arc will come to a close. But it will take a lot of convincing to show that the Kalos League finals were an important part of their relationship and not a lazy throwaway battle just to make sure Ash doesn't win a league.
 
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