vs Alan or vs Cameron

[Greneuliest808]

His whole progression between the 7th gym to the League was a pretty amazing feat too. That's some massive character progression we haven't seen... ever. Especially Ash mentally maturing in XYZ 28.

This is definitely true as well. And there are more positive than negatives with Ash. Eventually, all the positives we would get would probably balance out the negativity that is going on right now.

 

[Neosonic97]

Ash vs Alain is worse than Ash vs Cameron by a long shot, in my opinion.

 

[The Manjoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapGLkPv2n0

Video says it all

 

[Greneuliest808]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapGLkPv2n0

Video says it all

Oh gosh, I just watched it, yup, there is still salt around.

 

[Vidar89]

If the Question would be, which Battle is worse? Than I would say Vs Cameron. The whole vs Alain Fight wasn't Bad, it was at least decent, with a strong Beginning and the best Aerial Fight ever in Pokemon. The Fight Greninja vs Zard X itself wasn't Bad either, it was the Conclusion that was so BS and full of Plot Armor.

But the Question is, which Battle stung more? And the Answer is, Vs Alain. There was a huge Buildup for Ash winning the League, even with the Episode Title and then the Destructo Disc Attack in the Preview. To see Ash lose is Bad but to see that Zard not even showing some sort of Exhaustion or Damage in the End rubs even more Salt in the Wound. Its everything, from the Buildup, to the loose and the Way Ash lost which makes it so Salt worthy.

 

[Lionel_B]

Ash VS Alain. The fighting was intense and the animation was better. I found the battle breathtaking, it was awesome! Well, okay... Goodra was humiliated, and all that just for a Greninja VS Bisharp sloppy... But otherwise, I loved !

After, I honestly don't hate the Ash VS Cameron, because he already aired on my birthday and... No, seriously, I liked this fight. For me Cameron's silly, but this is a very good trainer with excellent Pokémon, so if Ash loses to a Hydreigon, a Ferrothorn, a Samurott and a Lucario, that's fine.

I would say the worst, by default, it's Ash VS Tobias, because apart from a great Sceptile VS Darkrai, it was ridiculous, we could just a Ash going to the slaughterhouse xD.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I still say Ash vs Cameron, especially since my expectations for Ash winning this league were low anyways.

 

[Navin]

What improvement? Ash only won 1 onscreen battle...

Technically, he won 3 onscreen battles. Fact is, Ash did defeat 5 opponents en route to the championship.

 

[DSDark]

Which loss stung more and poured salt in the wound?

vs cameron was just bad because Ash had a pokemon advantage, however his pokemon were awful. vs Alain wasn't that bad because Alain had been built up as a powerful opponent and it looked like it could go either way.

 

[Alexander18]

Ash vs Cameron hurt more since he had only five pokemon and seemed/was less experienced than Ash. Ash vs Alain was fine because it was a 6 on 6 and Ash did bring Charizard to it's knees with Greninja.

 

[SoundVoltex]

Ash vs Cameron was an insult, but I don't think many people had expectations coming into the League. Ash struggled with every battle in that region. The 8th gym leader was one of the biggest disappointments too. Ash had very clearly defined win conditions, in that he relied on Pikachu's "static" ability. STUPID if you ask me.

Kalos League, we had high expectations because of the prowess and proven Pokemon Ash brought in. He also had insane amount of potential with obligatory League buffed Pikachu and IKUZE! Frog. He was supposed to win, to the point where it was hyped up... and then he lost. When I saw Greninja faint, my mind actually went numb. I can't help but feel emotional numbness towards Pokemon. It's a hate/apathetic relationship now. At least with Best Wishes, I didn't care from the very beginning. Kalos kicked me down when I cared the most.

 

[Cresselia92]

Kalos League, we had high expectations because of the prowess and proven Pokemon Ash brought in. He also had insane amount of potential with obligatory League buffed Pikachu and IKUZE! Frog. He was supposed to win, to the point where it was hyped up... and then he lost. When I saw Greninja faint, my mind actually went numb. I can't help but feel emotional numbness towards Pokemon. It's a hate/apathetic relationship now. At least with Best Wishes, I didn't care from the very beginning. Kalos kicked me down when I cared the most.

This is pretty much how I feel as well: apathy. I still clearly remembering my mind going blank along with the audience when Greninja started falling. When I saw its back, I thought to myself "Please, tell me you have still some energy left...", and then... they show the swirly eyes. I was so stunned that I barely cared about what happened afterwards, and my attention returned only when Lysandre became "insane". This is how much the episode has affected me.

Back in BW, I didn't care much about the series and I watched it with irony and sarcasm. I barely cared about the match versus Cameron, since I didn't expect anything good from it, due to the setting in general. I was ready to see trash, and that terrible battle and Ash's placing didn't faze me at all.

This time was different, and there is still a pang of bitterness in my mind. I will get over it, that's for sure. I tend to get over disappointments fairly quickly. However, the episode pretty much enlightened me, and now I will look at the anime with different eyes. No more with hope and excitement... but also with a veil of resignation.

 

[Soniman]

I have to admit when I saw the conclusion I really did think for a second that Greninja had won it all, and then he keeled over and I was just...numb...I chuckled and then I immediately went to see the reactions to feel better, the the negative feelings started festering into anger and now depression and now I just feel totally deflated.

I put an embarrasing amount of investment into this match, and so to have it fail in utterly every single way was just heartbreaking. Ash vs Cameron doesnt even compare in terms of disappointment.

 

[Pikachu52]

In both Kalos and Unova Ash lost to an equally competent trainer. That's how every league ended. Simply because Cameron's character was silly doesn't mean his portrayal wasn't as a decent trainer - he had several fully evolved Pokémon and his Hydriegon managed to take out two of Ash's Pokémon. And it's not as if Ash has a massive amount better in Kalos than Unova. The Kalos league only had 64 trainers compared with Unova's 128 so the number of rounds is one less and it works out as Ash only having one more battle.

 

[Aduro]

In both Kalos and Unova Ash lost to an equally competent trainer. That's how every league ended. Simply because Cameron's character was silly doesn't mean his portrayal wasn't as a decent trainer - he had several fully evolved Pokémon and his Hydriegon managed to take out two of Ash's Pokémon. And it's not as if Ash has a massive amount better in Kalos than Unova. The Kalos league only had 64 trainers compared with Unova's 128 so the number of rounds is one less and it works out as Ash only having one more battle.

Cameron was a complete idiot, he sent in a swanna out to battle Pikachu, ferrothorn into pignite. All of his decisions were the opposite of the sensible type of pokemon. He was like a more stupid version of Ash that had more guts and plot armour to get him through battles he was too dumb to win. And on the way into the Kalos league Ash battled much more competently in gym and rival battles than he did in Unova. Alain on the other hand was an older trainer we saw battle well against several elite four members and other strong trainers. I mean can you image how salty people would get if Ash had lost to someone as dumb as Cameron in Kalos instead? After everyone was talking about how this may have been his strongest team ever.

 

[Shneak]

vs Cameron was honestly one of the worst battles, both in animation and execution, that ended a terrible League. I don't care about the sub-zero expectations I had for it.

vs Alain was good. I wasn't entirely invested in Ash winning so I was fine with the outcome. I wish Alain had better development in regards to his party, but ultimately the rivalry between Greninja and Zard was characterized in multiple episodes.

 

[Pikachu52]

Cameron was a complete idiot, he sent in a swanna out to battle Pikachu, ferrothorn into pignite. All of his decisions were the opposite of the sensible type of pokemon. He was like a more stupid version of Ash that had more guts and plot armour to get him through battles he was too dumb to win. 

Using a Pokémon with a type disadvantage doesn't in and of itself indicate stupidity on the part of the trainer. Ash has done it on numerous occasions sometimes with success sometimes without - Grovlye vs Alteria, Hawlutcha v Spritzee, Pikachu vs Serpeiror ect. Maybe he thought the two were powerful enough to overcome the disadvantage but underestimated Ash. And the anime has made it clear that having "guts" is not a vice. Alain too deliberately uses Pokémon that have a disadvantage against their opponents. He used Charizard against an elite four member Blastoise, and against Ash's Greninja, the latter of which he won against every time they battled.

And on the way into the Kalos league Ash battled much more competently in gym and rival battles than he did in Unova.

Depends how you define competence. The battles were scripted in a more complex manner than in BW but at the end of the day the results were the same. He got 8 badges in 8 regions and entrance to each league

Alain on the other hand was an older trainer we saw battle well against several elite four members and other strong trainers. I mean can you image how salty people would get if Ash had lost to someone as dumb as Cameron in Kalos instead? After everyone was talking about how this may have been his strongest team ever.

Strongest team ever? Ash has plenty of Pokémon who have outperformed the Kalos team, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape ect. Cameron was never presented as dumb in battles - he was clearly quite competent when fighting Marlon. Alain may be a stronger trainer but he is somewhat overpowered given his apparent ability to enter the league, the regions premiership competition, as an afterthought all to battle Ash. The speed at which he got his gym badges is hard to swallow, if just for the fact that he managed to cover the same distance in mere weeks that Ash had in months.

 

[SoundVoltex]

In Unova, Ash had really poor win conditions. Specifically, his 8th gym battle. Rewatching Unova feels like Ash was returning as a novice. I mean come on, 6 vs 3 and still relying on passive status effects to win (Pikachu's static).

In Kalos, there's strategy and NOT as much struggle and not as poorly constructed win conditions.

 

[Litleonid]

Alan beating Ash stung worse because I legitimately believed Ash could beat him and his absurdly OP Mega Charizard X. I knew Ash wouldn't beat Cameron after the first part, due to many poor decisions made in battle and Ash honestly had a very weak team. But Alain? Nah, Ash had a much stronger team and the odds truly did seem in his favor to me. Two things about Alain truly bugged me though.

One, until Ash mentioned the league, he was never shown to have any interest in it. There was never any hints of him collecting badges, but when he finally did, he steamrolled through eight gyms in only seven episodes. The fact that Alain didn't even care if he won and just cared about making it to Ash bugged me a bit more. He was just here for a battle with Ash, which he could have easily asked to battle him again outside of the league. He didn't even talk to other competitors and shook their hands. Unless they were Ash, they were meaningless.

And two, Alain has only lost one battle in the whole series, which was in his debut. After, he and his Mega Charizard X built up a perfect win streak and in some of those cases, Mega Charizard X should have fallen. That Charizard has shown it can take a lot of damage, though it barely shows a scratch sometimes and somehow still wins. If Mega Charizard X was less overpowered and actually lost more battles, I would have been okay with Alain beating Ash.

This is why I have such a problem with Alain winning and why it stung more than Cameron.

 

[Alexander18]

Alan beating Ash stung worse because I legitimately believed Ash could beat him and his absurdly OP Mega Charizard X. I knew Ash wouldn't beat Cameron after the first part, due to many poor decisions made in battle and Ash honestly had a very weak team. But Alain? Nah, Ash had a much stronger team and the odds truly did seem in his favor to me. Two things about Alain truly bugged me though.

One, until Ash mentioned the league, he was never shown to have any interest in it. There was never any hints of him collecting badges, but when he finally did, he steamrolled through eight gyms in only seven episodes. The fact that Alain didn't even care if he won and just cared about making it to Ash bugged me a bit more. He was just here for a battle with Ash, which he could have easily asked to battle him again outside of the league. He didn't even talk to other competitors and shook their hands. Unless they were Ash, they were meaningless.

And two, Alain has only lost one battle in the whole series, which was in his debut. After, he and his Mega Charizard X built up a perfect win streak and in some of those cases, Mega Charizard X should have fallen. That Charizard has shown it can take a lot of damage, though it barely shows a scratch sometimes and somehow still wins. If Mega Charizard X was less overpowered and actually lost more battles, I would have been okay with Alain beating Ash.

This is why I have such a problem with Alain winning and why it stung more than Cameron.

Ash losing to Alain was fine. Losing to Cameron was not. Ash was clearly not strong enough to win otherwise he would have won.