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Was Ash planned to defeat Team Rocket and win the Indigo League?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by MadaMada, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. MadaMada

    MadaMada Well-Known Member

    I watched the original series back when I was 12 years old, and I can't help but noticed after getting the Soul Badge, there is huge stretch of filler episodes lasting for half a year before the Volcano Badge.

    I always wondered, is this where the direction of the Anime was change due to the popularity spike of Pokemon that they needed a way to ensure the longevity of the Anime?

    The first 30 episodes were pretty quick, and you could literally count the number of filler episodes in 1 hand. To be honest, I enjoyed that pacing too. You got a full team of 6 within the first 12 episodes including the 3 Starters. As a 11 year old child watching the Anime then, I would fantasied about the day Ash fully Evolved all 3 Starters, beat Team Rocket, Capture all the Legendary Pokemon, and take down the Indigo League like a true Shounen hero. But we all know that never happened.

    From the leaked Mewtwo Strikes Back footage where the series was supposed to end with that movie with Ash and Misty having a daughter further justifies this theory.

    Even today, it baffles me, why didn't the Animator evolved Ash to a Legend Like Red. You don't just create the main character of a series, and then just keep dragging your feet on making him the greatest hero unless there is a good reason; which I think is that they needed to series to carry on forever, therefore Ash can't be the very best no one ever was.
  2. lolipiece

    lolipiece It's a fish eat fish world out there Staff Member Moderator

  3. Redstar45

    Redstar45 The anime canon cop !

    Problem is whole thing about the misty have a daughter with ash has never been be completely confirm and whole thing about ash win Pokemon indigo Leagues.....no as shudõ did think that point of Ash lose is he is not going to be winning type of characters from shonen characters like tyson from Beyblade show and shudõ hate team rockets but the trio .
  4. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix Go, Go Power Rangers

    That should always be stated whenever this trailer is brought.

    On a side note, I think Dogasu should have explained why the daughter idea is insane.

    Really this fandom comes up with weird ideas and start thinking they were intended or are supposed to be true when they are not....
    Pokegirl Fan~ likes this.
  5. Shadao

    Shadao Well-Known Member

    No. There was no evidence that the anime had big plans for the Rocket Organization. Or even an indication that Ash was going to win the Indigo League. The closest behind the scenes insight we have is Takeshi Shūdo, the head writer of the Original Series and creator of the Team Rocket trio.

    Shūdo never thought that the Team Rocket organization was anything more than just bunch of bad guys that get in your way. And to an extent, he's correct. Back in Gen I, the only known member of Team Rocket with a name is their boss, Giovanni. Every other member is a Grunt, Scientist, or one of the Trainer Classes that aligned themselves to Team Rocket.

    Thus, he created Jessie, James and Meowth as the face and personality of the Team Rocket Grunts. This also allowed him to create original characters unbounded to the video games. This is why the TRio's characterization was much more sophisticated and in-depth compared to most other villains.

    If Shūdo was trying to give the Team Rocket organization a larger role, he clearly skipped a lot of the Team Rocket game subplots even before the Porygon Incident. Pokémon Tower: No Cubone or Mr. Fuji. Saffron City: No Silph Co. Takeover. Celadon City: No Rocket Corner.

    It becomes clear that Shūdo wasn't invested into the rest of the organization unless it serves as a contrast to the Team Rocket trio. Butch and Cassidy are deliberate foils for Jessie and James, a dark mirror of what they could be if they were successful but less sympathetic. Likewise, Giovanni only served as a conduit for Mewtwo as well as offering Boss gags where the comedic TRio tries to appease their largely serious and stoic superior with useless gifts and chores.

    To make a long story short; Jessie, James and Meowth are the main villains. And there's a reason for it.

    If you look back at the 30 episodes of Pokémon, you may notice something about Ash and Gym Battles. Namely, he doesn't win them all fair and square and doesn't really save the day as much as you think. He's a novice and clearly behind the curve. Often gets help from his friends and peers. As well as the fact the anime constantly reminds you that he's way behind Gary and he doesn't even fight his rival at any point except by the end of the Orange Islands. This is no accident considering that Takeshi Shūdo wrote the first episode of the Pokémon, which sets the tone of early anime.

    Ash is not some special Chosen Hero. He's an ordinary boy who wants to become a Pokémon Trainer. In many ways, a deconstruction of the whole Pokémon Trainer experience given that his lack of experience or maturity gets him nearly killed several times. Often by wild Pokémon. It's almost laughable for him to be even a Pokémon Trainer, let alone Master. And this theme was repeated several times.

    Flint, Brock's father, pursued a career of being a Pokémon Trainer but failed and became a hobo selling rocks for a living because he's afraid of returning home as a failure.

    In the episode, School of Hard Knocks, we are shown students who are held back because they couldn't pass certain courses. Almost to adulthood. And this is regular boarding school.

    Go West, Young Meowth is the story about Meowth and his struggles in life and love. It ends on a downer note but also with a sense of optimism.

    I do not believe that Shūdo was intending for Ash to win the Indigo League before the series was extended. His philosophy about failures and life struggles are incompatible with the premise of Ash winning the League... or defeating Team Rocket.

    In fact, I dare say that Ash Ketchum only became a competent, skilled and badass trainer when other writers began taking helm, particualrly Atsuhiro Tomioka. Note that when Tomioka became the new head writer for the Pokémon anime, that's when Ash started to become a lot more battle-prone and serious than his previous appearances.

    You know, there's an irony here. When Red appeared as the real final boss of Gold and Silver, that's when the fandom stops remembering him as their player avatar and started building him as this uber legend of a character. The ultimate Pokémon Master. And at the same time, started disparaging Ash for not doing the same.

    But shortly afterwards, starting with Advanced Generation, Ash was slowly phased out from his OS immature and idiotic personality into a more Shōnen hero archetype he's later known today. And when the kids of the first Pokémon generation took helm to the series, they made Ash into a similar legend like Red. Look at the XY series and the latest movie to see what I mean.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  6. Redstar45

    Redstar45 The anime canon cop !

    And in let go pikachu and eevee red is didn't beat team rockets or winning the Pokemon league and is not well know .....Green (m) is
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  7. Lord Starfish

    Lord Starfish Fond of owls

    I do think Sun & Moon backpedaled in this in a fairly good way though, making him still a competent trainer, but one more capable of messing up, be it in lapses of poor judgement (like totally falling for Kuchinashi's provocations during the third Grand Trial) or just general clumsiness (like dropping his Z-Crystal in the middle of a fight). I see a lot of complaints that they made him a straight-up butt monkey due to how he's often the target of slapstick, but... I dunno, I think they give him a few too many moments of genuine competence for him to just be brushed off as such. It's more like they made him a fairly competent battler... who is also a bit more believable as being a kid than he was in DP or XY.
  8. Shadao

    Shadao Well-Known Member

    I didn't mention Sun and Moon here. My observation is that Takeshi Shūdo's vision of Ash is significantly different from the modern incarnation. Shūdo's Ash is someone who doesn't have that much respect from his peers and even friends. Cocky, immature and always behind his rivals. He's not exactly the hero or even someone that will become a legend like Red. Based on what I read from Shūdo's light novels of Pokémon, there was nothing indicating that he will become a champion or even a Pokémon Master. Quite the opposite in fact.

    But shortly after Shūdo left the series and newcomers started to fill up the empty seats in the production team, Ash went through a character development that gradually made him something more akin to Red (Gen II onwards). A role model and inspirational hero. Even the new Japanese Sun and Moon opening song is said to be written as a thank you letter from all the kids in the world to Satoshi. It wasn't until I learned that Tetsuo Yajima, director of XY and M21, was considered by the production team and news media to be part of the first generation that grew up with Pokémon as kids. Suddenly, Ash's improved reputation makes sense. Kids of the first generation are now running the show.

    Remember, much of Red's reputation came from the fandom, and it seems that GameFreak rolled with it by Gen V, making Red an uber legend canon. It was also around that time where Tetsuo Yajima got onboard with anime crew and later helped development the XY series.
    Redstar45 and Spider-Phoenix like this.
  9. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix Go, Go Power Rangers

    I'm not sure if that's a Tomioka thing. Sure, he was head writer but in this position there's so much he can do. The head writer mostly coordinates the freelancer writers to build the story like the director intended too. I think it was mostly a decision by the higher ups, or at least, the people who were in charge of directing after Shudo left.

    It's important pointing that, on the AnimeStyle magazine interview, Yajima pointed out that Ash's XY look was inspired by Red. He basically confirmed my theory that his XY outfit is mostly Red's clothes with patterns from Calem's hehe
  10. Shadao

    Shadao Well-Known Member

    While it's unclear who was pushing for Ash to be something more than just an average Pokémon Trainer kid, I do know that Tomioka was pretty much in charge of all major battle episodes plus the May Contest subplot. And I do know that Takeshi Shūdo had major influence over the Pokémon anime as head writer.

    I will clarify this, however. While Tomioka did pave way for a more experienced and badass Ash, I don't believe he fully created it. Diamond and Pearl still had Ash be the underdog to his biggest rival yet, and he wasn't exactly respected by his peers (though Dawn and Brock offer better support for him compared to the early days of the anime). Which makes sense considering that the generation of Tetsuo Yajima didn't arrive to the production team until Best Wishes.

    Not surprising. Anyone who's a fan of Red would notice that XY Ash looks more like FRLG Red than Calem. Especially with the added hair tuffs and sideburns. It was also the very first clue that the XY series was going to treat Ash well considering that the design was deliberately made to look cool instead of just being a nice fashion trend like the previous series. Almost like the people who created it were big fans of Ash themselves. Which happens to be the case.
  11. Lord Starfish

    Lord Starfish Fond of owls

    I know you didn't bring up his Sun & Moon persona, but I feel like if one is to talk about how Satoshi's characterization has changed over time, his current characterization is at least relevant to bring up... especially seeing how it could easily be argued that SuMo Satoshi is their attempt at reaching a middle-ground between Shudo's perpetual loser Satoshi and XY's overly glorified badass Satoshi. They let him keep some of the more virtuous and heroic qualities that he'd picked up over the years, while still making him suffer setbacks and having plenty of moments where he comes off really bad, though not to the same extent as in the original series.
  12. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix Go, Go Power Rangers

    Well, if I recall the series didn't really have a main director after Shudo left but I think I recall reading that someone took charge temporarily. I think this progression post-Shudo Era might be a Yuyama thing since he's been around for so long and is the main director. Not sure since I don't have the staff for the first series and AG....

    I think I've done a side-by-side analysis on the similarities on another forum. Might try to find it.
  13. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    from the "what do you think will happen if ash ever wins a league" thread:
  14. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    No, it would be extremely hard to argue that. OS Ash was sarcastic and had a ton of snark. XY/Z Ash was a badass, shounen type of hero

    SM Ash is nowhere in the middle. On a Venn diagram of all of Ash’s iterations, SM Ash isn’t even on the circle
    Redstar45 and LilligantLewis like this.
  15. Apslup

    Apslup Triple Star Hunter

    I like to think that Team Rocket was supposed to play a larger role in the story (since the anime was only supposed to last until the end of Kanto) but idk.

    I really hope there is some sort of Rainbow Rocket Arc in the SM anime, since I feel that Team Rocket as an organization desires more than what they have (all they have really is the Matori Matrix, Butch and Cassidy and the Trio).
    04n70n10 and LilligantLewis like this.
  16. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    The Team Rocket Lugia and Gyarados arcs in MQ were so enjoyable. I miss that era.
  17. Apslup

    Apslup Triple Star Hunter

    Oh yeah! Forgot all about those episodes! I've been watching some raw Johto episodes recently and I really enjoyed them (despite the fact that I could hardly understand what they were saying most of the time due to my lackluster Japanese skills lol).
  18. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    The later portion of Johto had a lot of enjoyable eps because the fillers started to die down a bit and the writers were wrapping up some stories as they prepared for AG.
  19. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    Given the Rocket-dan organization's immense popularity back in OS, I doubt that the writers planned on ending their story-arc since it would've forced them to drop Musashi and her cohorts from the series. But then again if the series was meant to end back then anyway, I guess it wouldn't have mattered much.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  20. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix Go, Go Power Rangers


    Considering Hidaka was the one interviewed by PokéBeach some years ago and he had offered some interesting insight about the show, I assume Ash's growth was mostly something he wanted to.

    Makes sense because back then, they probably knew the show was a huge success but probably were unsure how long that would hold. Maybe he wanted consistency for the loyal fans and also to ensure a proper ending should the need arise?

    Sutou seems to have picked from where he left off until there was a demand for a "Relaunch" during Best Wishes/Black&White

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