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Was Ash planned to defeat Team Rocket and win the Indigo League?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by MadaMada, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Quite frankly i am glad they made ash progress in AG and DP series, shudo's idea of making ash as a loser worked initially but it was not gonna work for long period of time. Making ash a sore loser in later series would have made his whole journey pointless and set an example that no matter how much you travel you would still be a weakling.
     
  2. Zoruagible

    Zoruagible Lover of underrated characters

    Team Rocket was most likely to be intended to leave but the TRio got too popular(And rightfully so, I only watch for them) so they kept them.
    Team Rocket as an org really deserves better than they've gotten though, really hoping we get a Rainbow Rocket arc or something. The org exists and wants to branch out, but aside from the TRio and occasionally Giovanni we barely see others from the organization. That's why I think Sinnoh getting revisited for a BF arc come Sinnoh remakes could have potential, the region was left wide open for Team Rocket to take over and make a base there with Butch/Cassidy being the leaders of the Sinnoh branch.

    Heck, I don't see why they don't get made movie villains anymore. That was the thing I loved about the OS, apart from Movie 2 and the only bad OS movie, Team Rocket had a role in the plot! It'd make the movie more interesting than just another generic evil guy wanting to control the legendary the movie is focused on, and give the TRio a bit more interaction than being background characters
     
  3. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Yes out of 65 episodes in Master Quest, less than 20 were fillers.

    Movie 21:
    Yeah I was glad they actually played an actual role in the movie for the first time in forever, and I even specifically noticed that enough to comment on it in the Movie 21 thread.
     
  4. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    They knew from the beginning the series was going to last at least a year and half (roughly 78 episodes) him getting 6 badges in 30 episodes was poor planning on the powers that be. They should have put more time between badge 4 and 5 and a little more time between badge 5 and 6.

    Depends on your definition of filler. Because I counted way more than 5 filler episodes in the first 30.

    Even when you factor in the ridiculous stretch between badge 6 and 7 the Kanto portion of the anime still has the best pacing of any of the series.

    And thank God it didn't. Invincible shonen heroes like Yugi from Yu-Gi-Oh are boring as hell.

    Others have debunked you, so I won't.

    People over inflate Red as a legend. The thing is Red is an avatar for the player. He's only as good or as cool as the person playing him is. Ash (who for all intents and purposes IS RED from games) needed a more defined personality.

    I think its very clear Mr.Shudo was more interested in the WORLD of Pokemon than the battling aspect. His light novels shed some really interest ideas of the whole society and culture. Pokemon battles just wasn't what he and his team were interested in. I think the unconventional way Ash gets most of his badges and how little the Pokemon League actually focused on battling is evidence of this. I somehow doubt there was any plans for Ash to win the League.
     
  5. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Just 4 of the first 30 episodes were filler.
     
  6. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    Challenge of the Samurai- Aside from Metapod evolving on the very end its mostly filler
    Clefairy and the Moon Stone- Adapted from a game location, still filler
    The Path to the Pokemon League- Pure Filler
    The School of Hard Knocks- Pure Filler
    Mystery at the Light House- Other than Ash capturing Krabby it's pretty much filler
    Battle Aboard the St Anne- Filler
    Pokemon Ship Wrecked- Filler
    Island of the Giant Pokemon-Filler
    Beauty and the Beach- PURE Filler
    Tentacool and Tentacruel- Filler
    Ghost At Maiden's Peak- PUREFiller
    Bye Bye Butterfree- Its filler even if it gives a reason for Ash never using Butterfree again
    Hypno's Naptime- Aside from Misty getting Psduck at the end its filler
    Pokemon Fashion Flash- Aside from Brock geting Vulpix in the end its filler
    Punchy Pokemon- It's filler
    Sparks Fly for Magnemite- Filler

    It would be easier to list the Kanto League episodes that aren't filler

    Pokemon! I choose you- First episode
    Pokemon! Emergency- First Team Rocket. Misty joins the party officially
    Ash catches a Pokemon!- Conclusion of the series opener 3 parter.
    Showdown in Pewter City- Boulder Badge, Brock introduce and joins
    The Water Flowers of Cerulean Gym- Cascade Badge
    Bulbasaur's Hidden Village- Ash gets one of his main Pokemon
    Charmander the Stray Pokemon- See above
    Here comes the Squirtle Squad- See above
    Electric Shock Showdown- Thunder Badge
    Abra and the Psychic Showdown- Marsh badge part 1
    Tower of Tower- Marsh Badge part 2
    Haunter vs Kadabra- Marsh Badge part 3
    Ninja Poke Showdown- Soul Badge
    March of the Exeggutor Squad- Mostly filler but important because Charmander evolves
    Attack of the Prehistoric Pokemon- Charizard also Togepi egg
    Who gets to Keep Togepi?- Togepi hatches
    Riddle Me This- Volcano Badge part 1
    Volcanic Panic- Volcano Badge part 2
    Battle for the Badge- Earth Badge
    All Fired Up- Arrival at the Indigo Plateau
    Round One. Begin!- Ash registers. First match
    Fourth Round Rumble- Gary gets knocked out. Ash's first real league battle (yes Fire and ice is filler it barely focuses on the league battles and you could treat his second and third battle as battles he won off screen and lose nothing)
    A friend in deed- Introduce Ritchie
    Friends and Foes alike- It's like 90 percent filler but its important in the end
    Friends til the end- Concludes Indigo League
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  7. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Clefairy and the Moon Stone- Brock catches Zubat. Episodes with capture are not filler.
    Mystery at the Light House- episodes with capture are not filler.
    Battle Aboard the St Anne and Pokemon Ship Wrecked - two parter will never be filler. First Team Rocket appearance as organization.
    Tentacool and Tentacruel- Misty got Horsea
    Bye Bye Butterfree- episodes about releasing pokemon are not filler.
    Hypno's Naptime- episodes with capture are not filler
    Pokemon Fashion Flash- episodes with capture are not filler.
    Punchy Pokémon- Ash leaves Primeape.
    Sparks Fly for Magnemite- Ash catches Muk.
     
  8. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    He literally captures it off screen. The episode is mostly a throw away episode about Clefairy's worshipping a moon stone. We haven't been following Brock before. A viewer could assume he just always had one. This episode is skippable filler. You lose nothing skipping it because the one mainstay (Brock capturing Zubat) happens off screen and doesn't really have much to do with the episode plot or advance anything

    A capture that isn't used again for another 60 some episodes.

    That is ridiculous criteria. Multi parters can absolutely be filler. Nothing in the plot or characters is advanced.

    And it doesn't really impact anything.

    Also an off-screen capture. And only kind of sort has anything do with the episode about rampaging Tentacool.

    I would maybe give you this one. But even still Ash barely used Butterfree after he got his Kanto starters anyways

    A capture that happens literally in the last 30 seconds of the episode. Most of the episode is a throwaway plot about missing children. It is 99 percent filler. Compare the "Ash gets the Red/Green/Blue starters" trilogy which revolve around the Pokemon Ash is going to get. Here it's just like "Oh and then Misty got Psyduck"


    A Pokemon that had pretty much zero impact on any narrative.

    And then doesn't use it for another 40 episodes.

    I think the idea of "Well it includes a Pokemon capture" therefore its filler is a bit misguided. Legend of Dratini was easily skipped by 4kids despite featuring the capture of Tauros because the episode was mostly pure fluff and him suddenly having 30 of them as far as dub viewers were concern since he didn't get much use out of them anyways
     
  9. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    They can be considered boring episodes, but they are not filler by definition. You have to take into account that the writing in OS and the other series is very different. Captures back then were just a little part of the episode(except the starters, for obvious reasons). Even gym battles didn't have the episode completely focused on them.

    The episodes don't being completely focused on the pokemon doesn't really matters. Let's take Squirtle's capture episode: the plot was typical filler plot, just take the last minute of Squirtle going with Ash and the episode will be filler. Other example: Noivern's evolution episode, about delivering medicine to a hospital. Another typical filler plot(OS had one filler with the same plot). If Noibat had not evolved, it would be another filler.
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  10. zdbz_sn

    zdbz_sn Well-Known Member

    I agree to the extent that Shudo never intended Ash to be inherently special or gifted, but those same novelizations do take time to contrast Ash with his still-unnamed father and grandfather, who not only failed, but disappeared from his mother's life. Ash doesn't do that. And the Orange League happened under Shudo, as did M02, where Ash does take on the role of the hero. The OI, and the early part of Johto, already saw a mellowing in the friendship between Ash and his companions, and they were more supportive then too. Hell, they showed themselves to be pretty supportive by the time the Indigo League came around. I won't dispute that he was clearly more interested with the world, and with the relationships between Pokemon and people in a broad sense, than with battling or badge quests.

    One must also remember that any lack of development in Johto before Shudo left wouldn't necessarily be any one person's fault. IIRC, that was the time when Shudo was seriously ill, the G/S ball subplot the anime had planned was claimed for M04, and the inevitable come-down from the height of the Pokemon fad was roughly around this time. Small wonder the series lost a clear direction at that time.
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.

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