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Was Ruby's Celebi planned or a happy accident?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Manga Discussion' started by matt0044, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. matt0044

    matt0044 Well-Known Member

    Celebi’s reset button in the RS arc’s finale is infamous but whether it was a last minute stint or not is something I find hard to partial out. That is, when Ruby takes out his mysterious sixth Pokemon, Sapphire recall back to their first meeting when the Seviper was curb-stomped by one of his Pokemon but didn’t see who like we the readers.

    It could’ve been that the mystery was set up to be something else and when Kusaka started killing off Steven, Norman and Courtney, his editor urged him to undo it for some reason (a commonality in kids Manga) and they would try to make it look like it was planned all along in plain sight when not really.

    Storytelling is something of an magic trick where you hope to make it all come together and look like you were in control the entire time. Contrary to popular belief, it often relies more on writing by the seat of your pants even when you have a planned trajectory for the overall plot. This is especially true of Manga creators who have INSANE deadlines for one chapter alone. Akira Toriyama anybody?

    However, with Celebi, the transparency is pretty apparent to any reader. Yet that still leaves us with the question. Did Kusaka plant that seed to later grow or was it just a happy accident that he had a dangling plot thread to tie up?

    I'd like to encourage a civil conversation and maybe discuss how complicated writing a story can really be.
  2. Redstar45

    Redstar45 The Fire type master !

    If that is case of editor force him to use that plot then why that person didn't told Pokemon is not that dark story to begin with ? would save him some time .
  3. lolipiece

    lolipiece No Pokemon, only Sakka Staff Member Moderator

    I doubt it was an editorial thing. There were vague references beforehand.

    When Ruby defeated the Seviper that attacked him and Sapphire, he clearly sent out a Pokemon that wasn't part of the four he already had at the time. That was shown in the original chapter.

    When he and Sapphire were leaving Mirage Island, the time distortion that made Mirage Island hidden from view went crazy.

    Both of these happened before characters started dying.

    Also, he's from Goldenrod, which is literally right next to Azalea Forest, where Celebi resides.

    He probably wanted to feature the three "cute" Mythical Pokemon at the time in each of the Gen III arcs, as chapters 267, 294, and 318 were all published in around the same month. All three chapters contain Mew, Celebi, and Jirachi flying through the sky with the exact same panel layout. Kusaka likes making connections like that.
  4. matt0044

    matt0044 Well-Known Member

    True but this leaves a few questions: How did Ruby meet Celebi and just went along with a legendary Pokemon hanging around with him? Was there to be a flashback meant to explain this but the RS chapter was short on time?
  5. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie Together with the Wind

    I just read this arc around Christmas, but so much went on that I can't remember the little details. But wasn't Celebi given to him by his father or something? I think Celebi was a gift in general, had to have happened after the Salamence incident or just before they moved to Littleroot. I didn't catch on to the vague foreshadowing when I was reading (there's such a thing as being too subtle, and I just thought Mirage Island's weird time distortion was a way to explain why it's such a mysterious island), but even then it still doesn't make much sense. It still feels like the writer just had to have a happy ending despite all the destruction, and in the process ended up making those emotional moments Ruby went through kind of moot.
  6. I gotta be honest, the Celebi thing is the one big criticism I have for the RS chapter. It did feel really Deus Ex Machina for me, but I think there could viably be an explanation in that the Emerald chapter had to happen and they couldn’t have Steven killed off for that, and if you’re gonna find a way to revive one then why not the rest? It still pisses me off but I can see where they came from with the decision.
  7. matt0044

    matt0044 Well-Known Member

    I don't think Steven wasn't really a big player in the Emerald chapter.
  8. fk6284755

    fk6284755 New Member

    The discovery of penicillin comes to my mind. Penicillin was one of the world's best "accidents". Alexander Fleaming was a British biologist who had left his research out in the open one day, forgetting to clean up. When he came back he found mold growing on it and that it killed bacteria. That's how the world's first antibiotic was created.
  9. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie Together with the Wind

    What does any of this have to do with Celebi's inclusion as a "happy accident", exactly? Are you suggesting Kusaka forgot what the sixth Pokémon was up until Mirage Island, realized he was writing himself into a corner and needed to do something about the setting as well as make it a happier ending for the kiddies?

    Am I reading this right?
  10. diakyu

    diakyu Well-Known Member

    The fight against Seviper was a very gigantic hint. The arc never really tries to hide Ruby's abilities beyond this point so it was odd that this specific instance was never shown.
  11. Cyclone

    Cyclone < where it all began

    My theory is that Kusaka originally planned for Ruby to have/encounter Jirachi and have him "wish" all the characters back to life & destruction to be over. But that instead, he changed plans so that Jirachi could be a part of the Emerald plotline instead, and switched Jirachi to Celebi and called it "time travel" instead.
  12. Lucky3

    Lucky3 Well-Known Member

    That makes a lot of sense. IIRC, the chapter was called Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald in the magazines, with Wally set up to become Pokedex Holder, and up until then third versions didn't have a chapter to themselves, so it makes sense if the ending was changed midway to save stuff for another arc. Not to mention, Jirachi makes a lot more sense in that role than Celebi. Kusaka strikes me as the type that would change his plans for the sake of connecting things with other arcs. I think that might be part of the reason for the constant hiatuses in BW2.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  13. shoz999

    shoz999 No! That's impossible!

    I feel like he planned the Celebi moment since the end of GSC when Celebi went missing. There lots of hints though but I think it's mostly because I think the author of the series gets a look at future generations ahead of time. I say this because in the RBG and Y arcs, Charmander had spikes and Hitmonlee still had stretchy springy legs. By the GSC arc, Gold has a skateboard, which was supposed to be featured in the Gold and Silver video games. Also I think it's actually pretty obvious he planned it because that extremely detailed and complex cataclysmic battle that lead to so much damage to the Hoenn region and the deaths of important characters and was solved by Celebi was hinted at since the beginning of the series, starting with the mentioning of the earthquakes happening near Petalburg city. That disasterous event was hinted all the way at the beginning of Ruby and Sapphire, closely connected to other events, lore, and interseting facts and it's because of that I thought the Celebi solution was of the few force solutions that felt closely connected and planned out to the rest of the story's ongoing events.

    I guess that's one of the things I like about Pokemon Adventures, even the forced solutions feel heavily connected.
  14. lolipiece

    lolipiece No Pokemon, only Sakka Staff Member Moderator

    One problem, though. Jirachi can only be awake for 7 days, and the story takes place over the course of 80.

    Celebi never went missing. We just last saw it drifting in the voids of time with Pryce.

    He mentioned playing what I assume was an early version copy of Sun and Moon in September of the year it came out, but that's probably as far as he gets.

    ...What does this have to do with getting info early? Charmander had spikes in its original artwork, and Hitmonlee always has stretchy legs. That's its entire gimmick.

    Unless you mean the arms, which was a reference to a card game.

    The earthquakes were just Team Magma "stimulating the Earth's crust" in order to further their goals of awakening Groudon.
  15. ellifeedn

    ellifeedn Thinker

    I just thought of a way to "fix" the ending of Ruby/Sapphire. We keep the plot thread that Ruby had Celebi (the reasons for which still kinda elude me, but let's assume it's so that Celebi has a fixed point in time it can return to), but instead of Celebi doing nebulous time shenanigans, we have it travel to the future/past and bring Jirachi back and use a wish to fix everything. The characters, both good and bad, see how powerful these wishes are and the events of Emerald transpire as a response.
  16. shoz999

    shoz999 No! That's impossible!

    That still seems like a Deus Ex Machina only much more complicated than it has to be. It would be cool since it would follow along into the Emerald Arc but still... feel unnecessarily complicated.
  17. matt0044

    matt0044 Well-Known Member

    I think it
    I feel like the story should've left Norman and Steven's deaths as potential loose ends that could be tied up later on. Did Game Freak or the magazine editor really have a problem with the heroes dying?
  18. shoz999

    shoz999 No! That's impossible!

    It would feel very off if any of the important characters were left to die in such a brutal fashion. I can understand a particular character in X and Y where they may resolve it in the remakes or possibly even one of the future generations but even I think that might be too much to end at for Pokemon Adventures. Also the fact that there alive actually makes the ending, where the Pokemon Association celebrates and Ruby's and Sapphire's Families finally start a party together, makes it feel satisfying.

    If there's one thing Pokemon is great at that a lot of other world-building series fail at, it's that happy and peaceful endings can be awesome and satisfying conclusions to a story!

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