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Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

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No point watching it if they change the characters every 30 eps.

Unless you really like Ash I mean.
Unova seems like its going to wind up being shorter than Hoenn/Sinnoh. I mean in Japan Ash has 4 badges already at only 55 episodes....that's literally halfway.

I suppose though they will keep Iris/Cilan around after the Unova league for a possible filler arc. I honestly can't see who would replace them, as they definitely aren't going to bring Brock back or one of those older female characters.
 

CupidKirby

Well-Known Member
That's the thing. It's too predictable that they're going to change the characters every saga. Was the decline in ratings for Johto that bad? *rhetorical question*
 
That's the thing. It's too predictable that they're going to change the characters every saga. Was the decline in ratings for Johto that bad? *rhetorical question*
The reason why they keep changing the characters is to give the series a slight ratings boost at the beginning of each saga.

Even though Brock was kept for AG and DP, it really didn't matter much because all the focus was basically on Ash, May, Dawn and to a lesser extent Max anyway.

Although to be fair Brock still had a decent role on the show throughout most of AG. It really wasn't until DP he wound up getting sidelined entirely.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Originally according to ex head writer and his blogs original trio was intended to be kept as permanent cast in pokemon series.Only reason why Brock left for awhile in Orange Islands was due to initial fear of Brock being viewed as racist stereotype among Americans because of his eyes.

Purpose behind Ash,Misty and Brock being reunited for Johto was because writers figured out due to their popularity how they are working formula for this show,planning to keep them for next series and onward.

However their mistake was that they didnt took in account how Johto was vastly longer saga than Kanto was with popular group not being enough with series requiring little more substance to maintain people interest.
Problem with Johto wasnt in reuniting same group again with original trio already proving to had potential to work as group,but in writers inexperience when writing for long sagas which needed to be stretched out for 3 years or so until new games come out.Johto was their first one with writing staff finding themselves basically in front of wall.

Johto did improved some things like providing better battles,giving little more character development to Misty and Brock,being ground-breaker in introducing mini story arcs which were later expanded on during AG and DP era.That and chemistry between original trio and TR were the only other working parts.

However excessive use of fillers,drop of plots like GS ball,Ash and groups pokemon and goals not being treated well,Ash older pokemon being "released", as well lack of any real rivals with TR going nowhere were reasons why people started losing interest during Johto series.Combination of lack of ex head writer care and writers inexperience in handling some things properly back than were one of main factors responsible for this.

Another reason is because original fad started to die out.

Because of ratings starting to drop and because of third generation coming up with contests,writers decided to add some change in show by introducing new characters.
However only reason why Misty was chose to be replaced over anyone else was because she was girl,being already explained in one of interviews and in ex had writer mr.Shudo blogs why are girls being replaced.

The only reason the original trio was reunited was because everyone raged about Brock being replaced and really disliked Tracey. I liked him. So they panicked and brought back the character they knew had a large fanbase already.
When Misty left this caused even bigger backlash among fandom,so im not sure if fan demand had anything to do with his return.

Writers almost never listen to fan complaints and according to ex pokemon director mr.Hidaka,Tracey served mostly as testing ground to see how Americans react to Brock eyes.After seeing how they had no problem with this with character already being liked,they decided to give him another shot.

It seems to me as if Johto gave people the illusion that the original trio was important. I think this is why some people don't understand why it was never reunited again afterward, it was never meant to.
I dont think you understand how popular during series heyday original group was.They played important role in introducing pokemon anime to million of viewers worldwide contributing to its popularity.Ash,Misty and Brock as group even to this day are still most recognizable and iconic group out there and there is a reason for this.

And during original series original trio was treated by writers as important group,otherwise they wouldnt be planned initially to stay even past Johto.

I gather how reason why many people still think how original trio might be reunited again was because of still having potential as group which is self explanatory considering how they werent fleshed out a lot,because of being most iconic and recognized group which made show popular in first place and because of high demand and popularity.

In most shows first set of characters is usually most recognized and iconic,being responsible for anime becoming popular in first place.As such its almost always guaranteed how they will never be forgotten just like first generation of games wont always having chance to return because of this.

For that reason alone people still think we might see first group reunited again,making actually sense if it happened in final saga or something.Since it would emphasize better on closure ad anime coming back full circle since it would end with group which started it.

All Johto serves as a reminder of now is why the show kept changing after it ended to better suit the series.
Show keep changing because its nothing more than tool to promote new games really not having consistent and well developed storyline.If contests were introduced in second generation of games Johto would probably be largely different than it was even if same group still stayed.

The reason why they keep changing the characters is to give the series a slight ratings boost at the beginning of each saga.
Except thats not really a reason,considering how return of popular and liked older character would also give boost to series with people viewing it as nice twist to current formula judging by demand.Reason why writers rather replace characters with new ones is to provide new fanservice(or "eye candy")according to mr.Hidaka and his interview.As shallow as it may be,there arent any complex reasons behind characters being replaced.

EDIT:
That's the thing. It's too predictable that they're going to change the characters every saga. Was the decline in ratings for Johto that bad? *rhetorical question*
Interesting thing is that at times AG had lower ratings than Johto did.According to some sites Johto generally had higher ratings than Battle Frontier did.

In reality only reason why Johto wasnt successful like Kanto was because of poor writing and lack of writing experience in handing some things.They had popular cast,popular pokemon and workable chemistry but they screw things up by wasting much of potential on too many fillers from which no one benefited.

However contrary to some belief Johto did some things right having several great episodes giving some notable development to characters having certain charm(at last among main group and TR).It wasnt trash like some pretend to be the case.
Personally im so so about this region,not being my favorites nor worst region.
 
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Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
I don't get all the hate for Johto. It had fillers but so did DP. Funny thing is the two most hated series re in even numbered gens.
DP filler didn't make up half the aired episodes, which johto fillers did.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
DP filler didn't make up half the aired episodes, which johto fillers did.
It wasnt exactly half.Out of 158 episodes about 65 were fillers where absolutely nothing important happened.Everything else was plot related where it contained character development for Ash,Misty or Brock,focused on their goals,involved new pokemon capture or evolution,involved TR organization,had appearance from recurring characters(like Gary,Casey.Aya,Duplica or prof.Oak)etc.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Best Sailor Guardian~
It looked like it to me with bringing back the original trio for another generation, but it didn't really work out well. I actually kind of hope that the writers bring back some older characters for the next generation instead of replacing the characters with new characters all of the time, even though it looked like it failed back in Johto. It's getting old and it's way too predictable.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
It looked like it to me with bringing back the original trio for another generation, but it didn't really work out well. I actually kind of hope that the writers bring back some older characters for the next generation instead of replacing the characters with new characters all of the time, even though it looked like it failed back in Johto. It's getting old and it's way too predictable.
There seems to be some misunderstanding.Johto didnt failed because original trio was reunited.In fact most people were excited when thy hard Brock is coming back after break during OI welcoming Ash,Misty and Brock as group again.

Reason why Johto failed was because of poor writing with plots like GS ball being botchered and wasted after all that build up,too many unecessary fillers being included which didnt advanced main character stories in any way,Ash rivals like Gary becoming non existent,his Johto team being handled poorly along with some of his release of older pokemon at that time like Charizard angering several fans(though they werent aware how Charizard wasnt gone forever at that time).

Reason why Johto wasnt received among some fans well was mainly because of writers not treating some things properly with their complaints having nothing to do with who was in cast.If quality of writing about some things back than was same like it was in DP Johto would probably be one of most liked regions out there.
 
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Yeul

Green Eyed Girl
I found Johto to be an entertaining region, but with everything that happened you couldn't really take it seriously. Nothing majorly plot-related happened other than giving a sendoff to the original trio, but if there's anything I have to give credit for, it's that watching an episode of Johto makes me feel incredibly nostalgic, even moreso than Kanto.
 

ChaosMage

Izit cuz I is black?
It's all well and good in retrospect asking why the writers didn't do what they've done for subsequent sagas. Now we can ask "why didn't they change the female protagonist and give them their own goal?" or "why didn't Ash start fresh with only Pikachu?" until the cows come home, but they didn't because they simply hadn't realised that it would work. They did what they believed would be popular, and then from AG onwards they established a new set of rules.
 

Nightlingbolt

AKA Nightlingbolt
I don't think people are saying that, I think people want to understand *why* the Johto saga was written the way it was.
And by "people," you mean yourself. How conceited.

What's to understand? The GS Ball plot was dropped entirely midway through, Ash's team was poorly handled, and there was generally nothing exciting going on at all. People have accepted all this and moved on. You, however, are doing what you always do and looking to start yet another *****fest.

Reported for spam.
 
It may also be why other elements from Kanto were kept, like Jigglypuff, Misty's Togepi not evolving, and why Misty/Brock actually kept their Kanto teams instead of leaving them behind.

In fact, the only major changes would be the arrival of Ash's Johto pokemon, which slowly phased out his Kanto team as the arc progressed.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
It's all well and good in retrospect asking why the writers didn't do what they've done for subsequent sagas. Now we can ask "why didn't they change the female protagonist and give them their own goal?" or "why didn't Ash start fresh with only Pikachu?" until the cows come home, but they didn't because they simply hadn't realised that it would work. They did what they believed would be popular, and then from AG onwards they established a new set of rules.
There is something im slightly confused about.They already had female protagonist with her own goal.Misty dream was to become water pokemon master.However instead of expanding more on it providing something else during Johto,writers screwed things up by wasting all that extra screen time on unecessary fillers.Whirl Cup seemed like step in right direction but it happened too late and some of characters they met could have been great rivals for Misty sharing same ambitions(like they are doing now with Iris and Cilan) but none of those happened.We could say its because of writers lack of experience not having set up plan how to properly develop other characters beside Ash at that time.However partially fault falls on ex had writer himself at that time who stated in his blogs how he never cared much for main cast in general hence explaining why all characters(including Ash and Brock)suffered from lack of development.

About Ash starting fresh i believe reason why he went to Johto while keeping older pokemon was because they tried approach of main protagonist starting out experienced gradually changing his team as saga went on.Which looked good on paper but problem was that idea was executed poorly causing consequence of some of Ash Johto pokmon suffering from neglect and lack of focus due to overexposure of his Kanto pokemon.

Anyway i agree with thedehydrator.Current formula of constantly replacing characters after every 4 years isnt working well anymore either with approach becoming too predictable,repetitive and pointless.Pointless i say because there is no point in constantly introducing new characters while older ones still have lot of potential to develop them more unlike its case now laving with open stories,being halfway developed.
Reuse of some of popular older characters judging by demand and potential they could bring could be beneficial serving as unpredictable nice twist.
 

iraqmaster

Well-Known Member
To be honest i don't know what the hell the producers were going for in johto..
 
I think the writers just thought, "OK we brought Brock back and Tracey is gone. The original trio has been reunited, that's all we have to do!" and that's where they left it.

Unfortunately at the time they didn't realize what make the cast likeable in Kanto was the writing to back it up. It honestly felt like Ash interacted more with the Johto COTD's than either Misty or Brock that saga.
 
It's honestly because they wanted to repeat Kanto but they got bored with it after their mojo was screwed up with ditching the GS ball and letting a perfectly planned plot go to waste. Nothing to od with the original trio. They got stale though because the writers weren't used to writing with Brock again, and also as I said before, they got bored with them. When writers get bored with something, it becomes worse. That's why I think the gym gap of Sinnoh happened
 

Aquadon

TCG Trainer
I think what really happened was that there were a lot of good ideas at the time (More Pokemon development with Chikorita/Cyndaquil, the possible G/S Ball plot, etc.) but many of those things pretty much fizzled. Not entirely sure why, but once some great concepts were wrapped up quickly or shelved was when the Johto Arc "began to decline" and we started to get all these fillers.

I don't think it was much of the Kanto reboot idea as it was the lack of continuing a good plot point which caused Johto to bog down. If they had kept with certain ideas for a much longer period of time (imagine Cyndaquil not being able to get its Fire going as a Quilava, or Noctowl using more mind games than just the first episode), we could've seen a much better developed saga.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
It's honestly because they wanted to repeat Kanto but they got bored with it after their mojo was screwed up with ditching the GS ball and letting a perfectly planned plot go to waste. Nothing to od with the original trio. They got stale though because the writers weren't used to writing with Brock again, and also as I said before, they got bored with them. When writers get bored with something, it becomes worse. That's why I think the gym gap of Sinnoh happened
I will agree how Johto had many things done wrong but chemistry between original trio wasnt one of them still being enjoyable as individuals.

Ash,Misty and Brock were still having personality and enjoyable dynamics but problem was in too many unnecessary fillers being there which prevented main characters to interact and be active due to taking backseat in several episodes which revolved around solving problems with COTD and their pokemon.Even Ash who is main star suffered because of this often not having chance to interact and display his personality with such type of fillers not advancing plot and character stories in any way falling in second plan.

However in many episodes it can be noticed how chemistry and quality dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock existed when actually receiving focus.

Interaction and chemistry between Ash,Misty and Brock in Johto was still on its height giving that touch of being long time known friends.They all started to mature getting to know each other better developing tolerance toward their flaws while still having good interacting,.I remember Ash was still naive and stubborn but also started to mature not going with "head through wall so much",Misty became more supportive to Ash and Brock becoming closer as friends while still still being stubborn and possessive being passionate about things,but instead of being so violent she used more of her cynical and spunky side.While Brock was making sure to keep them out of trouble serving as caretaker for them with his calm and wise attitude still providing help in some battle strategies.
 
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