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Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

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Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
Yeah I kind of agree, the only real problem is because they changed clothes in AG and ever since which made the Johto clothing seem out of place, it makes the viewer question why they kept the same clothing for two regions and then suddenly change every time? (even though realisticly we know because of a more fresh start).
 
Johto was made to promote the games but without ruining their original story due to the lazy writers.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
Yeah I kind of agree, the only real problem is because they changed clothes in AG and ever since which made the Johto clothing seem out of place, it makes the viewer question why they kept the same clothing for two regions and then suddenly change every time? (even though realisticly we know because of a more fresh start).

Maybe it was because of how they made the regions. When g/s/c games came out, you could go straight to Kanto after the Elite Four. You can't do that in the r/s/e and d/p/p games.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
I think Johto's problem was that Ash used his Kanto Pokemon lots.
 

JetshipperKekkaishi

High School DxD Fanatic
Yeah I like Johto even I think that Johto was a second Kanto. Hoenn,Sinnoh,Unova were a fresh start for Ash and the others. I felt that they kept Ash,Misty,Brock because The orignal trio were so popular that it was easy for the writers to keep Them together.Johto was promoted so early in the series then the writers decided to go with that.Even the movies promoted Johto in the first 2 movies. So Johto was nothing more than a second Kanto but Ash actually battles the gyms and focus a little more on his rivalry with Gary. And Give Misty and Brock a new Pokemon.Ash's Johto team was less focused than any team he used in the other regions. The games were ok but nothing special to go by.
 

iraqmaster

Well-Known Member
To be honest, I do think that they intended for it to be a second kanto. So many things:

1. The original trio is reunited.

2. Half of Ash's team resembled his kanto one. He caught all 3 starters, he caught johto's resident bird pokemon...

3. The Who's that pokemon was retained from kanto/orange islands..
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
No. I think the intention of the writers was to make Johto like Johto. All they needed to do was present Johto Pokemon throughout the filler episodes and give the characters Johto Pokemon to work with. That is all they needed to do and also give better development for everyone's Pokemon.
 

Covcraig

Member
Over the past year I have purchased the boxsets from Australia and watched from episode 1 of Indigo league all the way through to the end of Sinnoh league victors and can honestly say Johto was the worst set of seasons of them all.

I had high hopes going into Johto as I had never watched any seasons past the original Indigo league and felt that while watching the Orange Islands that having Brock gone really damaged the dynamic of the show, so with a new intro and a new region I was excited setting off into Johto.

This was short lived, I felt that there were massive gaps in between anything half interesting happening in the show, sure he had Charizard obeying him now, and still had Squirtle and Bulbasaur too, but their character focus was dropped and the new Pokemon caught had even less development, except for maybe Chikorita's jealousy of Pikachu. The worst season in this whole sage definitely had to be Johto League Champions which I can honestly say nothing important happened in, the only thing that happened is the addition of Bayleef to Ash's team.

Things didnt really get good untill the beginning of Master Quest with the Lugia episodes and the return of Ritchie, but these type of episodes were rare, and once the Pokemon league had finished and Ash dispatched his team at Oaks lab, it made me wonder was any of it really worth it?

AG was probably my favourite series, as you many different angles going on..Ash as an experienced trainer in his third league effort, May starting out as a trainer was a fresh perspective which we hadnt really seen since Ash in Indigo..and Max who was learning and preparing for his own journey one day. Ash's team seemed stronger and had more character from before, with the only exception in my opinion being Torkoal.

Anyway, im going off an a tangent, I still dont see why everybody misses Misty, she just got plain annoying towards the end, teasing this love for Ash which never really got any further development, dreaming of becoming a water pokemon master but seldom adding any pokemon to her team, I mean, Psyduck for instance, one of the main pokemon in her team that got any attention basically got dropped.

Johto was ridiculously bad, if it wasnt for the remakes I imagine it wouldnt have featured so heavily towards the end of DP either, they should just leave Johto to quietly be forgotten like the OI, except in my opinion, the OI had some interesting and unique episodes and one of the best Pokemon league battles in the history of the anime.

One thing I dont understand though, why was there never really any proper episodes/movies featuring Ho-Oh and the main Pokemon in them?
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
Over the past year I have purchased the boxsets from Australia and watched from episode 1 of Indigo league all the way through to the end of Sinnoh league victors and can honestly say Johto was the worst set of seasons of them all.

I had high hopes going into Johto as I had never watched any seasons past the original Indigo league and felt that while watching the Orange Islands that having Brock gone really damaged the dynamic of the show, so with a new intro and a new region I was excited setting off into Johto.

This was short lived, I felt that there were massive gaps in between anything half interesting happening in the show, sure he had Charizard obeying him now, and still had Squirtle and Bulbasaur too, but their character focus was dropped and the new Pokemon caught had even less development, except for maybe Chikorita's jealousy of Pikachu. The worst season in this whole sage definitely had to be Johto League Champions which I can honestly say nothing important happened in, the only thing that happened is the addition of Bayleef to Ash's team.

Things didnt really get good untill the beginning of Master Quest with the Lugia episodes and the return of Ritchie, but these type of episodes were rare, and once the Pokemon league had finished and Ash dispatched his team at Oaks lab, it made me wonder was any of it really worth it?

AG was probably my favourite series, as you many different angles going on..Ash as an experienced trainer in his third league effort, May starting out as a trainer was a fresh perspective which we hadnt really seen since Ash in Indigo..and Max who was learning and preparing for his own journey one day. Ash's team seemed stronger and had more character from before, with the only exception in my opinion being Torkoal.

Anyway, im going off an a tangent, I still dont see why everybody misses Misty, she just got plain annoying towards the end, teasing this love for Ash which never really got any further development, dreaming of becoming a water pokemon master but seldom adding any pokemon to her team, I mean, Psyduck for instance, one of the main pokemon in her team that got any attention basically got dropped.

Johto was ridiculously bad, if it wasnt for the remakes I imagine it wouldnt have featured so heavily towards the end of DP either, they should just leave Johto to quietly be forgotten like the OI, except in my opinion, the OI had some interesting and unique episodes and one of the best Pokemon league battles in the history of the anime.

One thing I dont understand though, why was there never really any proper episodes/movies featuring Ho-Oh and the main Pokemon in them?

You actually purchased the Johto box sets?! That must have hurt to spend that kind of money on crap.
 

Covcraig

Member
You actually purchased the Johto box sets?! That must have hurt to spend that kind of money on crap.

LOL, this is true...

But I can say now that i've seen every single episode of Pokemon, and the sets look quite good together all laid out together on my shelf ;)
 

~Upsidedown 403~

Well-Known Member
I'll just keep my answer simple...The point of Johto was to continue the pokemon anime...it was a continuation of where they left off in the Orange Islands and Kanto...And it was used to promote the GSC games...That's it..
 
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I'll just keep my answer simple...The point of Johto was to continue the pokemon anime...it was a continuation of where they left off in the Orange Islands and Kanto...And it was used to promote the GSC games...That's it..

You can say that for any saga.

Anyway I think the user, "Covcraig" summed up a lot of it. Johto didn't get good till Master Quest, but even then there was still a lot of crap filler in it, like "Whichever way the wind blows" and such.

He also made it nicely put why AG felt so refreshing in comparison, it really felt like the writers were trying to bring some life back into the series. A mature Ash, a new fresh group, better handled and more enjoyable pokemon on the cast, and May would wind up being one of the better handled characters of the series. Also the fact that the Contests just became so popular says a lot in itself.

Johto had some good points, but you have to swim through the nonsense to get to it.
 

Antiyonder

Overlord
A big problem touched upon is the extensive filler. But even then, having a lot of filler episodes didn't have to be a bad thing. The bad thing is that most filler reuses the same exact content:
- Ash and company meet an insecure COTD.
- Team Rocket tries their usual scheme and end up blasting off.
- Insecure COTD becomes more confident.

Now I will bring up some other ones later if need be, but here's a couple examples of filler that are fun and more inventive:

1. Path to the Pokemon League: AJ is anything, but insecure. He easily gives Ash a run for his money, and it's Ash who needs to wise up.

2. Malice in Wonderland: No COTD, plus Team Rocket doesn't even antagonize Ash and Company.
 

~Upsidedown 403~

Well-Known Member
You can say that for any saga.

Anyway I think the user, "Covcraig" summed up a lot of it. Johto didn't get good till Master Quest, but even then there was still a lot of crap filler in it, like "Whichever way the wind blows" and such.

He also made it nicely put why AG felt so refreshing in comparison, it really felt like the writers were trying to bring some life back into the series. A mature Ash, a new fresh group, better handled and more enjoyable pokemon on the cast, and May would wind up being one of the better handled characters of the series. Also the fact that the Contests just became so popular says a lot in itself.

Johto had some good points, but you have to swim through the nonsense to get to it.

I'll agree that Master Quest was probably the best part of Johto, but even with the filler I think it's on par with AG cause AG had fillers too...But that's just me...

I don't see AG as the writers deliberately trying to breathe "fresh air" into the series...I just look at them trying something different and it was successful. The main reasons why it stood out in comparison with Johto was because of the cast change, the the new clothes, and the addition of an active secondary side quest, the latter of which helped out significantly.

Johto didn't have the luxuries to benefit from such changes at the time because it was recovering from one itself. The writers probably saw what they did with Kanto and wanted to repeat or recreate that. People often say Misty and Brock should've been replaced with Gold/Kris to promote Johto. Why would they put themselves at risk again with another Brock/Tracey fiasco? And who could possibly fathom the potential backlash had they replaced Misty before Johto?

Simply, IMO Johto was treated as a contiunation of Kanto, HENCE why the original trio was re-united and they kept the same clothes, and most of their kanto pokemon because generations 1 and 2 are compatible with one another. Johto and Kanto were not only closely linked plotwise in the anime, but also from the gameplay as well. Was the formula and execution perfect for this saga? No, but the same can be said about ANY saga. Basically it was a good team, with good potential, with not-so-good development. But that doesn't make it impossible to distinguish the good from the bad.
 

Antiyonder

Overlord
I'll agree that Master Quest was probably the best part of Johto, but even with the filler I think it's on par with AG cause AG had fillers too...But that's just me...

Like I said above, the problem isn't that Johto had filler, or a lot of it, but that they fell back too much on the same exact formula.

Case in point, Ash and Max trying in vain to cover up the fact that a Torchic that was suppose to be offered to a beginning trainer evolved was amusing.
 
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~Upsidedown 403~

Well-Known Member
Like I said above, the problem isn't that Johto had filler, or a lot of it, but that they fell back too much on the same exact formula.

Case in point, Ash and Max trying in vain to cover up the fact that a Torchic that was suppose to be offered to a beginning trainer evolved was amusing.

Ah, but in master quest they started to stray a bit more from the usual formula...And give more background on things...Like giving Pryce character background and a backstory on why he initially thought pokemon and humans shouldn't be friends........Or watching human magic being incorporated in pokemon by turing Ash into a Pikachu...I find that rather enjoyable.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
With no further adding,Johto was treated more like continuity from Kanto and OI than anything else.After Tracey fiasco and after witnessing how their initial fearing of Brock being viewed as racial stereotype because of eyes was ungrounded,writers decided to go back to group which started series already proving to be well liked and proven formula.

Initially it was planned to keep Ash,Misty and Brock as group permanently in series from there and onwards,but after ratings started to drop due to poor writing and pokemon fad starting to dye out writers changed their mind and opted for adding some change in cast.However in longer run i think it would be more beneficial for anime if formula was changed by not necessarily changing main cast.Like shaking up dynamic by adding fourth character or replacing TR and current story taking group in new direction.

Speaking of Johto,Master Quest was probably best season not falling in quality behind AG.For start number of pointless fillers decreased significantly,Misty and Brock(to lesser extent)received more focus,there were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot(Like Whirl Cup,Red Gyarados,Lugia,Larvitar etc),gym leaders were depicted in better light(like Pryce and his past or Clair which pulled with itself mini arc about Dragonite)group pokemon started to gain better development(evidenced by more evolutions,captures and change of attacks in their roasters) along with Johto Silver Conference being pone of best leagues we ever had.

However i wouldnt say 3rd and 4th season didnt had worthwhile things because they did.Several of fillers were rather entertaining and unique,some past characters from Kanto appeared(Like Duplica,Todd,Aya or Suzie)being nice throwback to cast,there were couple of recurring and amusing pokemon(like Jigglypuff,Snubull and later Delibird),Ash companions got some valuable development,battling overall got improved and original trio was still good feeling like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments.In fact Ash,Misty and Brock dynamic and Jessie,James and Meowth comedy were saving grace for several of those fillers becoming watchable compensating for poor writing.

Granted our heroes often stood in background in episodes which revolved around COTD and helping their pokemon,but when they played some role and got focus they were delivered as enjoyable group having same spark they had in Kanto.
For that reason alone i cant pick on original trio for this because reason behind poor quality in some episodes was due to characters being neglected.

Anyway, im going off an a tangent, I still dont see why everybody misses Misty, she just got plain annoying towards the end, teasing this love for Ash which never really got any further development, dreaming of becoming a water pokemon master but seldom adding any pokemon to her team, I mean, Psyduck for instance, one of the main pokemon in her team that got any attention basically got dropped.

People miss her from what i noticed because they find she had enjoyable personality providing best dynamic within group so far,gave identity and humor to anime,because she wasnt developed to full potential never getting any real closure and because she had interesting backstory and past finding character deserved better than what it got in end.

Of course whether someone is interesting or prominent is matter of personal perspective but after seeing how unfairly character was really treated i can see from where theyre coming from.

People often say Misty and Brock should've been replaced with Gold/Kris to promote Johto. Why would they put themselves at risk again with another Brock/Tracey fiasco? And who could possibly fathom the potential backlash had they replaced Misty before Johto?

Thankfully writers dont listen to fans.There was no reason to replace Brock and Misty in Johto at all,and after realizing how successful and popular original trio was writers probably figured how best move would be to use already proven formula.It was their fault and mistake for dropping ball and not utilizing group and Johto to potential it could have,because good group wont get you far if you dont treat anime plot and story properly.

As for Misty,actually her departure caused backlash after Johto as well.I remember complaints being higher than it was case with Brock.
 

Vanillachu

Pudding master
I am still trying to figure out to this day what the original intent of the Johto saga was. They got rid of Tracey and brought back Brock, reuniting the original trio. Gary was also kept as the rival, but that was expected as Ash didn't beat him yet.

No new ideas were brought into the series, Ash's Johto team wound up not breaking any new ground for the series, and the show wound up going on for 3 years instead of only 1 like Kanto.

Did Johto suffer because it tried to be another Kanto, only with far less memorable episodes and too long and drawn out with filler?

I agree with this message

though I still enjoyed Johto anyways thanks to TR, totodile bayleef, and brock
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
They wrote Tracey out because they realized that Brock wouldn't be looked at as a racist stereotype, that's why Brock was put back in. And apparently there was a lot of buzz for removing Brock from the show.

Of course Gary was kept as the rival. He and Ash had unresolved conflict as they were the prodigy trainers from Pallet Town that made it the farthest out of all the rest. They were supposed to battle at the Ingido Plateau, but Gary lost in the competition before Ash so they were to duke it out in Johto.

Hold on...No new ideas were brought in with Johto? That's a lie...Johto is the first season where Ash's pokemon actually began to have actual personalities rather than being just tools...The only reason why it's hard to notice that is because the Johto pokemon on Ash's team were battling his Kanto pokemon for screentime...

Johto didn't suffer because it tried to be another Kanto...Johto suffered because it was too closely linked with Kanto...figure that in with a very limited plot to work with, what could the writers have done to make it better?
 

Antiyonder

Overlord
Ah, but in master quest they started to stray a bit more from the usual formula...And give more background on things...Like giving Pryce character background and a backstory on why he initially thought pokemon and humans shouldn't be friends........Or watching human magic being incorporated in pokemon by turing Ash into a Pikachu...I find that rather enjoyable.

True, but the damage had been done by that point. If the filler from the previous two were more like the ones in Master Quest, then they wouldn't merit the dislike.

Though I can't say that the Pryce episode counts as filler since it sets up the Gym Battle. If you skipped it, you'd be missing part of the story.
 
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