• We're currently experiencing a minor issue with our email system preventing emails for new registrations and verifications going out. We're currently working to fix this
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vanillachu

Pudding master
True, but the damage had been done by that point. If the filler from the previous two were more like the ones in Master Quest, then they wouldn't merit the dislike.

Though I can't say that the Pryce episode counts as filler since it sets up the Gym Battle. If you skipped it, you'd be missing part of the story.
I Think ash should've stayed as a pikachu. then he really would be a pokemon trainer :D BADUM TISH *crickets chirp*

anyways I agree there was 2 much filler.
 
Last edited:

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
Every saga has filler...I don't care if you're watching OS, Johto, AG, DP, BW, it all has filler...Filler is necessary...Pokemon wouldn't be as successful as it is or as long as it is without the filler episodes...If all the episodes in pokemon were plot driven from the games, we'd know what would happen already...Plot driven episodes don't guarantee that the episode will be good...there's definitely a good number of plot driven episodes that are HORRIBLE...

Can you imagine what pokemon would be like without ANY filler episodes at all?? It'd be just like watching someone play the video games...Boring with a capital B! Picture this:

Ash starts in new region with Pikachu.
Ash caputures a 2nd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 3rd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 4th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 5th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.


Pokemon League. Oh no. Ash lost. Move on to next region and repeat. It'd be like literally watcing someone play the video game, with a lot LESS to see.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
Every saga has filler...I don't care if you're watching OS, Johto, AG, DP, BW, it all has filler...Filler is necessary...Pokemon wouldn't be as successful as it is or as long as it is without the filler episodes...If all the episodes in pokemon were plot driven from the games, we'd know what would happen already...Plot driven episodes don't guarantee that the episode will be good...there's definitely a good number of plot driven episodes that are HORRIBLE...

Can you imagine what pokemon would be like without ANY filler episodes at all?? It'd be just like watching someone play the video games...Boring with a capital B! Picture this:

Ash starts in new region with Pikachu.
Ash caputures a 2nd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 3rd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 4th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 5th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.


Pokemon League. Oh no. Ash lost. Move on to next region and repeat. It'd be like literally watcing someone play the video game, with a lot LESS to see.


I've already said twice on the same page, filler itself isn't a bad thing. It's only a problem when they follow the same exact formula. For some filler episodes that are actually more creative:
- Path to the Pokemon League
- Wake Up Snorlax
- Showdown in Dark City
- Having a Wailord of a Time
- Malice in Wonderland
 

Vanillachu

Pudding master
I've already said twice on the same page, filler itself isn't a bad thing. It's only a problem when they follow the same exact formula. For some filler episodes that are actually more creative:
- Path to the Pokemon League
- Wake Up Snorlax
- Showdown in Dark City
- Having a Wailord of a Time
- Malice in Wonderland
Agreed. filler is no problem as long as its good and there is something signifigant(new pokemon, plot twist, rival battle, gym battle, etc.) at least every 10 episodes if not every 5
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I mean...that's all I'm saying...they don't have to be mindless and boring...

I think it just boils down to this for that kind of episode...They just need to be done right.

Give exposure to those who need it. Make interesting interactions, and so on. But that's prbably the formula for any good episode.
 

RickHoenn

Banned
You're obsessed with Johto Cyber, you need to get over it and move on.

On another note I can't believe Hoenn is almost 9 years old, IT'S SO OLD!!! but people underrate AG. :( It suffers from being in the "middle".
 
You're obsessed with Johto Cyber, you need to get over it and move on.
This is the saga where I got really bored with the show.

On another note I can't believe Hoenn is almost 9 years old, IT'S SO OLD!!! but people underrate AG. :( It suffers from being in the "middle".
Probably because everyone already watched it years ago, and there isn't much more to say about it that hasn't already been said. Its flaws like the Magma/Aqua arc were brought up tons of times.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
On another note I can't believe Hoenn is almost 9 years old, IT'S SO OLD!!! but people underrate AG. :( It suffers from being in the "middle".
I guess that it's not as bad as Johto, while not being the greatest season either, so yeah it's the middle child. But to give some more of a response:

Cons
- This stands to be the only season that Ash didn't have a regular rival to compete against, thus making the Hoenn League a bit underwhelming.
- Granted, Brock came back for AG and DP, Gotta Catch Ya Later was the end of an era and thus we get a fairly touching departure by Misty. Memories Are Made of Bliss prepares the seperation of the then current trio with them having one last quality time together.

Home is Where the Start Is rushes the goodbye between Ash, Brock, May and Max barely containing emotion to it. The early part has May and Max departing, with no acknowledgement or sadness later in the episode. The Scheme Team had a better departure, and that was a temporary one.

Pros
- Whereas Misty truly was nothing more than the token girl and eye candy of Johto, May's screentime over all was more substancial and arguably helped to cut back on the filler that the series would otherwise get.

Furthermore, she has a pretty good character bit where she starts out training, simply to travel, and developing an interest in contests..
- This time around, the number of filler was lessened, but what we did get was more inventive that the filler usually given in Johto.
- It's nice to actually have another cast member rather than just doing another trio right away. And even if the writers don't care for having 2 males and 2 females, I have to wonder why we don't get another cast of 4.
 

MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
You're obsessed with Johto Cyber, you need to get over it and move on.

On another note I can't believe Hoenn is almost 9 years old, IT'S SO OLD!!! but people underrate AG. :( It suffers from being in the "middle".
Its the only series not on tv. OS is on Boomerang and they did DP all 4 seasons this summer till October on CN and now BW everyday on CN But AG has not been on sadly since 07.
 

sSerenity

Well-Known Member
AG is my favourite season, but DP has better mini-arcs

My only two problems in AG : the lack of Rival for Ash ... They introduce Morrison / Tyson too late ! And Why does Ash spend almost 80% of the season with only 5 Pokemons ? Snorunt should have been catched before (and so it could evolve not so fast)

The league was almost perfect ... Each pokemon had his glory ... And Ash only uses the same 6 !
 

Vanillachu

Pudding master
I guess that it's not as bad as Johto, while not being the greatest season either, so yeah it's the middle child. But to give some more of a response:

Cons
- This stands to be the only season that Ash didn't have a regular rival to compete against, thus making the Hoenn League a bit underwhelming.
- Granted, Brock came back for AG and DP, Gotta Catch Ya Later was the end of an era and thus we get a fairly touching departure by Misty. Memories Are Made of Bliss prepares the seperation of the then current trio with them having one last quality time together.

Home is Where the Start Is rushes the goodbye between Ash, Brock, May and Max barely containing emotion to it. The early part has May and Max departing, with no acknowledgement or sadness later in the episode. The Scheme Team had a better departure, and that was a temporary one.

Pros
- Whereas Misty truly was nothing more than the token girl and eye candy of Johto, May's screentime over all was more substancial and arguably helped to cut back on the filler that the series would otherwise get.

Furthermore, she has a pretty good character bit where she starts out training, simply to travel, and developing an interest in contests..
- This time around, the number of filler was lessened, but what we did get was more inventive that the filler usually given in Johto.
- It's nice to actually have another cast member rather than just doing another trio right away. And even if the writers don't care for having 2 males and 2 females, I have to wonder why we don't get another cast of 4.
Mostly agree with you. No rival makes things lame Hoenn would've been so much better if they gave ash a rival and not have him get that stupid torkoal.

Still loved hoenn mostly becuase of Harley, TR, treeko, Max and brock
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
You're obsessed with Johto Cyber, you need to get over it and move on.

On another note I can't believe Hoenn is almost 9 years old, IT'S SO OLD!!! but people underrate AG. :( It suffers from being in the "middle".
If you ask me Johto is highly underrated as well.While it had its bad points,this regions also had many good things improving in some aspects compared to Kanto.
However it seems how some people rather wan to focus on negative things,ignoring anything good which happened there.

I guess that it's not as bad as Johto, while not being the greatest season either, so yeah it's the middle child. But to give some more of a response:

Cons
- This stands to be the only season that Ash didn't have a regular rival to compete against, thus making the Hoenn League a bit underwhelming.
- Granted, Brock came back for AG and DP, Gotta Catch Ya Later was the end of an era and thus we get a fairly touching departure by Misty. Memories Are Made of Bliss prepares the seperation of the then current trio with them having one last quality time together.

Home is Where the Start Is rushes the goodbye between Ash, Brock, May and Max barely containing emotion to it. The early part has May and Max departing, with no acknowledgement or sadness later in the episode. The Scheme Team had a better departure, and that was a temporary one.

Pros
- Whereas Misty truly was nothing more than the token girl and eye candy of Johto, May's screentime over all was more substancial and arguably helped to cut back on the filler that the series would otherwise get.
She wasnt fleshed out enough as character with her goal of water master and many things being left unfinished,but i wouldnt say she was just fulfilling role of "token girl in Johto.
Her role during that saga was to still to act like Ash mentor and coach along with Brock giving him advices when it comes to battling(although to lesser extent).

Her role in Johto was also to provide humor and contribute to good character dynamic by acting like someone who would balance out Ash impulsiveness and naivety and Brocks obsession over girls with her spunky, and timid personality.

She was a lot more active as battler compared to Kanto and Oi islands getting some character development(becoming more levelheaded and mature and getting over complex of older siblings inferiority) and doing progress toward her goal of water master actually receiving more character centric episodes and screen time being improvement in some aspects.
Granted she was often in sidelines not receiving enough development but she still got some good focus(especially in Master Quest) doing several notable things in that region doing much more than Brock sadly did even there.

In Master Quest Misty started to feel relevant to anime being back on right track.At least i got that kind of impression.

- It's nice to actually have another cast member rather than just doing another trio right away. And even if the writers don't care for having 2 males and 2 females, I have to wonder why we don't get another cast of 4.
Imo it would be much more interesting if Misty was kept instead of Brock for AG(that or scratching Max out).This would allow to have group with 2 guys and 2 girls contributing to new and rather entertaining dynamic.
 

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
Every saga has filler...I don't care if you're watching OS, Johto, AG, DP, BW, it all has filler...Filler is necessary...Pokemon wouldn't be as successful as it is or as long as it is without the filler episodes...If all the episodes in pokemon were plot driven from the games, we'd know what would happen already...Plot driven episodes don't guarantee that the episode will be good...there's definitely a good number of plot driven episodes that are HORRIBLE...

Can you imagine what pokemon would be like without ANY filler episodes at all?? It'd be just like watching someone play the video games...Boring with a capital B! Picture this:

Ash starts in new region with Pikachu.
Ash caputures a 2nd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 3rd pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 4th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Ash captures 5th pokemon.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.
Gym Battle.


Pokemon League. Oh no. Ash lost. Move on to next region and repeat. It'd be like literally watcing someone play the video game, with a lot LESS to see.
Which is a good thing, more obvious filler is easier to skip if you don't want to watch it and get to the important stuff.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
Which is a good thing, more obvious filler is easier to skip if you don't want to watch it and get to the important stuff.
I don't think that's such a good idea...Without fillers, you never get a break from the main storyline, and while storyline episodes are important, it's nice to have a break every now and then. Especially with the general idea of pokemon being centered around capturing pokemon, training them, and battling gym leaders over and over.

In other anime, fillers are used because the anime overtakes the manga, or to allow the manga to get ahead of the anime. But that's not the case for Pokemon since it's merchandise driven. IMO, this show wouldn't have lasted this long without filler episodes. After all, this show is about adventure. The sense of Ash being on a journey full of learning experiences and growing up and all that grand stuff wouldn't be there if the episodes rushed him from one major event to another. Without them, these sagas would be roughly 50+ episods a piece...it's good to have them to prolong the time the human and pokemon characters interact...

Both plot-driven and filler episodes are important...Both can be bad, it just depends on the writing, and good writing would benefit BOTH...
 
To be honest the Johto saga feels like it doesn't hold much significance in the series. The only major event we got out of it is Ash finally beating Gary in the league.

Sure we got to see Ash battle the Johto Gym leaders and capture some Johto pokemon, but meh.

Its now been almost an entire decade since Johto came to an end, so most of its complaints just justify the direction the show went in after it ended.
 

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
I don't think that's such a good idea...Without fillers, you never get a break from the main storyline, and while storyline episodes are important, it's nice to have a break every now and then. Especially with the general idea of pokemon being centered around capturing pokemon, training them, and battling gym leaders over and over.

In other anime, fillers are used because the anime overtakes the manga, or to allow the manga to get ahead of the anime. But that's not the case for Pokemon since it's merchandise driven. IMO, this show wouldn't have lasted this long without filler episodes. After all, this show is about adventure. The sense of Ash being on a journey full of learning experiences and growing up and all that grand stuff wouldn't be there if the episodes rushed him from one major event to another. Without them, these sagas would be roughly 50+ episods a piece...it's good to have them to prolong the time the human and pokemon characters interact...

Both plot-driven and filler episodes are important...Both can be bad, it just depends on the writing, and good writing would benefit BOTH...
I don't want a break from the main story, so I will skip any filler that comes up.
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
I am still trying to figure out to this day what the original intent of the Johto saga was. They got rid of Tracey and brought back Brock, reuniting the original trio. Gary was also kept as the rival, but that was expected as Ash didn't beat him yet.

No new ideas were brought into the series, Ash's Johto team wound up not breaking any new ground for the series, and the show wound up going on for 3 years instead of only 1 like Kanto.

Did Johto suffer because it tried to be another Kanto, only with far less memorable episodes and too long and drawn out with filler?
What made it suffer was the fact that the kanto pokemon were WAY to prevalent in this saga. I know that the games had a mix of both Kanto and Johto pokemon when you were in johto, but more the Johto pokemon should have been more of the focus.

Each game after Gold/Silver/ and Crystal had less of a dependency on kanto pokemon and that also reflected in the anime.

Don't get me wrong I love johto even with all its flaws but Ash should have focused more on his johto pokes. even when he still had Charizard he could have put more focus on Heracross and Chikorita at the beginning of the saga.
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
This is the saga where I got really bored with the show.



Probably because everyone already watched it years ago, and there isn't much more to say about it that hasn't already been said. Its flaws like the Magma/Aqua arc were brought up tons of times.
Wouldn't you want to forget it then if it was boring for you.
 

xJeffx

Well-Known Member
In the games there was a 3 year timeskip between Kanto and Johto. But in the anime there was no timeskip between the regions. That's why they had a hard time with the Johto Saga. They even had a hard time figuring out what to do with Team Rocket.
So they added major events from the game to anime like the Goldenrod station and the Red Gyarados.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't you want to forget it then if it was boring for you.
No, because obviously Johto is better than AG to him...He always likes to take trips down memory lane and remind himself of how miserable he was with Johto...but deep down, he's really fond of the Johto saga. I mean, that's like why he talks about it SO much.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top