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Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by CyberCubed, Oct 14, 2011.

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  1. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    How could I? Johto is still part of the shows continuity. What happened there still sticks with the show, such as Ash finally beating Gary, Ash's capture of his Johto pokemon, where Charizard and Squirtle went, etc.

    Even though a large chunk of it is just filler which could be skipped without missing anything important, Johto still had some events happen in it like every other saga.
     
  2. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    Fixed. 10char.
     
  3. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Perhaps. However now that the show has so many sagas in general, Johto doesn't stick out much because it did nothing new compared to all the others, and didn't introduce any new major characters.
     
  4. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    I know Cyber, isn't that right? Golly, it's like you're reading my mind!!
     
  5. sSerenity

    sSerenity Well-Known Member

    Why does Heracross was captured in episode 121 (Happy Ending) and then get Oaked in episode 148 ? Only 27 episodes ! Only 3 focused episodes (capture, first battle, battle against Scizor). Why ? I love Bulbasaur, but he steals Heracross's time !

    His Johto team should be Pikachu Totodile Cyndaquil Bayleef Noctowl Heracross and between 7th and 8th gym, rotates with Phanpy
     
  6. Demonsead

    Demonsead Hoenn Challenger

    What is this with you? Not everyone likes filler in any capacity as much as you do.
     
  7. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    That is gross exaggeration to make.For start Johto improved battling in general fleshing out gym leaders and their stories.
    -it added more characterization to Ash pokemon not treating them like "soulless battling machines".Only problem was that Johto pokemon suffered from lack of focus clashing with Ash Kanto tam which overshadowed them at times taking up unnecessary all that screen time.
    -it was ground breaker in introducing mini arcs like Whirl islands,Lugia,Larvitar etc with later series(like Hoenn and DP)following up on said concept.

    -it tried to implement several mini tournaments(like Seaking contest,grass tournament,Pokemon sumo or bug catching contest)with purpose of putting something else on table beside only fillers which included typical COTD having problems.

    -Ash traveling companions received more focus and some significant development over there with step forward with their characters and stories being made.At least in there Misty got her own arc(Whirl Islands),had pokemon evolution,developed different techniques thanks to Corsola and Poliwhirl(compared to water gun spam in kanto)battled often TR with Ash and had notable achievements leading to some quality development.Which can be noticed in close bond she established with several characters gaining rivals(like Sakura or Egan)becoming more mature and level headed with time.
    Brock also got better treatment with more focus being put on his breeding skills which can be evidenced in way he took care of pokemon and healed them,entered breeding contest with Suzie,got involved in romantic circle with characters like(Temaku or dr,Anna)not staying only on running gag(at least there).

    -Johto also introduced several new recurring characters like Sakura and Casey along with bringing up older ones from past(like Ritchie,Aya,Tood,Duplica etc)acting like sequel from first series.

    Johto introduced some new features contrary to some belief.
     
  8. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    But you don't watch filler, remeber? You don't want to watch ANY episode that doesn't revolve around the main storyline, so you skip ANY filler that comes up. By your own admission, I don't think it would be outrageous to assume that you've seen less that 30% of the entire pokemon series. That's fine if it satisfies your tastes, do you. I'm just more lenient and will not dismiss an entire episode just because it doesn't advance the story. anywho...

    I also agree with this. Looking back at Johto, and comparing it to Kanto, the Kanto pokemon were far too prevalent in Johto. Consider the fact that Johto pokemon were hinted at in Kanto and the Orange Islands well before it actually came. The Johto region only has 100 native pokemon to that region, but a good number of them are directly linked to the first 151. The first region had 50% MORE pokemon than the newer region, so when you've ran out of Johto pokemon to debut, you'll have to go back to the old ones. Especially since Ash and co. still had their kanto pokemon still prevailing over the Johto ones. But that's also the case for the Gym Leaders because they also use Kanto pokemon.
     
  9. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Well that was the problem, wasn't it? Johto shouldn't have tried to be so reliant on Kanto.

    Even the Orange Islands had a unique feel to it thanks to Tracey and the surfing on Lapras' back through the islands. With Johto they just went back to the trio and started traveling with the same old clothes and pokemon.

    As a kid back in 2001 or so when Johto began airing in the dub, I was very excited for it at first and thought it was going to be a great saga in a new land. It didn't take me too long to realize the quality of the anime had dipped, and the show lost its Kanto style of writing and then the tedious episodes starting coming in full force.

    As Johto would progress its flaws would become very apparent, way too much tedious filler, the pokemon on the group were being handled very poorly, the main cast was going through very little, if any, character development and it took us 3 years to get through a region with only 1 storyline which was Ash's Gyms.

    For the people who are nostalgic for it that's fine, they're free to enjoy Johto all they like. But for everyone else we're more than content with what the show became afterward, regardless of the current thoughts on Best Wishes regressing the anime a bit.
     
  10. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    I always thought adding Tracey to original trio in Johto would bring up different dynamic to group making things more exciting.Too bad poor guy ended up as least developed character in history of anime.

    Maybe so,but in Master Quest quality was restored with writers fixing on several mistakes.Its unfair to put in same boat all seasons because they werent written same.Also original trio still had good dynamic with Ash,Misty and Brock personalities meshing well.More than i can say for DP group.

    I remember several moments where you could feel how they were friends having fun together.Like when Misty encouraged Brock to do first step about girls,when she tend to tease Ash along with getting into clash sometimes.When Brock got sick with both companions having to manage without him showing close connection and concern about him etc.

    Ash was still naive but also more "smart"with other two keeping him in check.Misty showed plenty of personality traits interacting great with several characters being still stubborn and hotheaded,but also more serene and playful with passionate love toward several things(like fishing,water types,battling etc)coming in first plan.

    While Brock was keeping everything on hold from falling apart being source of wisdom and knowledge.

    It can be noticed how close group was when they had to separate in "Gotta Catch Ya Later".

    Only reason why we didnt had their dynamic appearing on daily basis is because in many of cotd fillers they were out in background not having chance to be active sadly.

    Thats more matter of opinion,than anything else.I agree how several episodes were pretty bad,but there were several enjoyable fillers as well(like "Hook,line and Stinker","Heartbreak of Brock","Some like it Hot","Focus Pokemon"etc,etc).

    Out of pokemon Ash Bayleef,Cyndaquil and Heracross got pretty good treatment compared to Totodile or Noctowl.Misty Poliwag got good chunk of focus,went through some development(like losing confidence as Poliwhirl)being most used pokemon.Corsola wasnt treated bad either receiving fairly good spotlight for short time she was there(less than on season).
    Out of Brock pokemon Pineco and Golbat werent treated badly compared to likes like Onix or Geodude.

    And main cast got some development.Ash became less impulsive compared to kanto using some unique strategy and his head(see match vs Pryce,Clair or Jasmine).Misty became more mature and level headed getting over complex of inferiority(caused by sisters),while also bcoming better as battler.

    Brock remained unchanged as always,but he did improve when it comes to breeding displaying knowledge.

    If mr.Shudo cared and if writers had same experience they had in DP,.ohto would probably be one of best sagas we ever had.Looking back its real pity that original trio was never used to full potential,because writers had popular abd successful cast.THey only needed to handle storyline properly doing more with cast dropping ball on it.

    Granted iliked AG and DP(so-so),but there wasnt really needed change in cast necessarily after Johto to get things back on right track.

    And considering how majority of veterans want original cast back,shows how they are willing to give them second chance having material to do some intriguing arc with first group.
     
  11. ~Upsidedown 403~

    ~Upsidedown 403~ Well-Known Member

    I think people have already properly explained the reasons why it turned out the way it did...What else can be said? If you honestly hate it so much, why don't you just skip over all of it then?
     
  12. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Well-Known Member

    Well, there is another factor to look at. Since the Johto Season has long ended, we were informed that the GS Ball originally contained Celebii and was going to play a role in the series.

    So maybe the less creative fillers were made in haste because they didn't have time to come up with some alternative stories? Or to put it this way, would you say that the quality already was in decline, or only in the middle of Johto?
     
  13. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    I mean, I don't even know if adding the Celebi and GS Ball things would've helped that much...However, we never really got to see Giovanni go for his grand master plan in the anime...It would've been nice to see more Team Rocket agents trying to carry out his missions in Johto like with the Radio Tower and with the Slowpoke Well...
     
  14. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Well-Known Member

    It's not really about the plot itself, but more than likely that they had to presumably make some last minute changes and didn't have time to come up with something remotely decent. And considering how the plot started since the end of Kanto, i can't help but think that a lot of the middle of Johto would have been big.
     
  15. Dephender

    Dephender Gizakawayusu Staff Member Moderator

    ...what master plan? The GSC plot involved the remainders of the Rocket Gang trying to rebuild the team and call for their leader's return, something that obviously wasn't compatible with the anime. Honestly, it adapted what it could of the Jouto plot.

    If you're assuming the original plan for the GS Ball involved anything on a larger scale than a two-parter in late Jouto centered around Celebi, I doubt you've even seen this show. Yes, it's a shame we didn't get to see what they were intending to do with that ball, but the change in plans most certainly didn't drastically alter the overall writing of the Jouto arc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  16. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Because I don't hate all of Johto? There are a number of episodes that were good, and as said, its still part of the shows continuity and some important events happen.

    There are some really terrible fillers from Johto that I probably won't ever sit through ever again, but its important eps or the occasional good filler about TR or Wobbufett are sitll apparent.
     
  17. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    I mean, Giovanni never did much of anything in the show...he battled Gary...checked up on Mewto, and ordered JJM and other grunts around...I mean...
     
  18. Caseydia

    Caseydia Ace Trainer

    Johto would have been better if only they had seperated the good fillers from the bad.

    Bad: Spinarak Attack, Superhero Secret, Carrying On, Control Freak, Right on, Rhydon, etc.

    Good: Wired for battle, Hook Line and Stinker, Hot Matches, Trouble's Brewing, etc.
     
  19. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    I happened to like "The Superhero Secret" wasn't that the one with Gligar man in it?? Who would've thought to put a Superhero in the show based on a pokemon?? Aww man, I want a Gliscor man now!!

    And I also happened to enjoy "Right on, Rhydon" because it showed us a rock/ground type pokemon not being bothered by coming into contact with water. Well, maybe not direct water attacks...It was a Surfing Rhydon, and I don't think people were aware that Rhydon can actually learn Surf. Also, the Rhydon created a tunnel for people to travel through.

    I know these episodes don't really advance the plot or have that much significance to the storyline, but filler episodes like that add a lot of diversity to the show. It's episodes like that that give us the idea that pokemon isn't all about battling, collecting badges, or gathering ribbons...
     
  20. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    I liked the Gilgarman episode, but there were a lot of fillers that was just awful. The Ledyba one, the Wooper one, the Dunsparce ep, the Smeargle ep, hell almost all of "Johto league champions" for that matter.
     
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