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Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

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Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I liked the Gilgarman episode, but there were a lot of fillers that was just awful. The Ledyba one, the Wooper one, the Dunsparce ep, the Smeargle ep, hell almost all of "Johto league champions" for that matter.
Wait a minute!!! I liked "The Dunsparce Deception" I could really relate to that episode.

All the kids had a Dunsparce (probably from a swarm) and the one kid didn't...he was left out...Otherwise, finding a Dunsparce is VERY rare...It's like when you're in school, and all your friends have the newest toy out, and you don't...And then you feel left out...But when you do get what it is that everyone else had, you'll appreciate it more!!
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
Well that was the problem, wasn't it? Johto shouldn't have tried to be so reliant on Kanto.

Even the Orange Islands had a unique feel to it thanks to Tracey and the surfing on Lapras' back through the islands. With Johto they just went back to the trio and started traveling with the same old clothes and pokemon.

As a kid back in 2001 or so when Johto began airing in the dub, I was very excited for it at first and thought it was going to be a great saga in a new land. It didn't take me too long to realize the quality of the anime had dipped, and the show lost its Kanto style of writing and then the tedious episodes starting coming in full force.

As Johto would progress its flaws would become very apparent, way too much tedious filler, the pokemon on the group were being handled very poorly, the main cast was going through very little, if any, character development and it took us 3 years to get through a region with only 1 storyline which was Ash's Gyms.



For the people who are nostalgic for it that's fine, they're free to enjoy Johto all they like. But for everyone else we're more than content with what the show became afterward, regardless of the current thoughts on Best Wishes regressing the anime a bit.
I will agree that between the episodes after Ash beat Whitney to the episodes where Ash battled Chuck ( Mostly all of Johto League Champions) I was sort of getting bored with it. In that season the only things that interested me were the Gym battle against Morty. Chiokrita's evolution and development. the Celebi movie, the Mewtwo special, and Chuck's battle.

Master Quest for me was like drinking cool water after coming inside from a very hot summers day in florida ( california or any other places that gets very hot) The Whirl Island arc was a change of pace and I started to like the episode after it filler or not.

eidt: I just read another post from you Cyber it looks like you and me had the same sentiments for Johto League Champions.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I think the high points for Johto were "Johto Journeys" because it was the first part of the new saga, Johto League Champions kinda fell flat, and Master Quest was the best part of it.
 

Pinsirius

Sentimental Fool ;)
It seems to me as if Johto gave people the illusion that the original trio was important. I think this is why some people don't understand why it was never reunited again afterward, it was never meant to.

All Johto serves as a reminder of now is why the show kept changing after it ended to better suit the series.
Pretty much.

I never really caught on to Johto because, as has been said, the writers didn't understand how to pull the show's strings.

The equation seemed to be to remove the off beat humor and replace it with much better battle choreography... with what would turn out to be the most uninteresting set of Pokemon in the series, both in general and regarding Ash's team. I don't have a ton of fond memories of it.
 

Ohshi

Banned from Club Penguin
Wow, I never though about it like that.

So that is the reason why there are no recurring characters?
Aww. If only Johto didn't mess it up...
 
I think the high points for Johto were "Johto Journeys" because it was the first part of the new saga, Johto League Champions kinda fell flat, and Master Quest was the best part of it.
Johto Journies was also only like 40 episodes, because in the dub, Season 3 officially started the ep after "Charizard Chills" from Orange Islands, which meant 4kids-wise Johto Journies was less than 52 episodes.

Johto Journies does have some bad fillers, like the Snubbull episode, the Hoppip filler and so forth, but Ash's Kanto starters were still enjoyable and Johto did have an initital air of freshness to it...but it died down quickly.

I honestly think the only reason people liked the beginning of Johto was that Brock came back after Orange, and people really liked Brock back at the time. My my, how times would change 10 years later where people actually want Brock gone....
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
Johto Journies was also only like 40 episodes, because in the dub, Season 3 officially started the ep after "Charizard Chills" from Orange Islands, which meant 4kids-wise Johto Journies was less than 52 episodes.

Johto Journies does have some bad fillers, like the Snubbull episode, the Hoppip filler and so forth, but Ash's Kanto starters were still enjoyable and Johto did have an initital air of freshness to it...but it died down quickly.

I honestly think the only reason people liked the beginning of Johto was that Brock came back after Orange, and people really liked Brock back at the time. My my, how times would change 10 years later where people actually want Brock gone....
Well cuz Max took his roll as the guide in AG, and his flirting got old after Johto ended. Every time the focus was on a girl I was like " Ok Brock reacts in 3,2,1 yup".
 
Well cuz Max took his roll as the guide in AG, and his flirting got old after Johto ended. Every time the focus was on a girl I was like " Ok Brock reacts in 3,2,1 yup".
Brock was still somewhat interesting in Johto, and I even thought he was still OK in the AG days...it wasn't until DP that it became obvious Brock had lost all purpose in the series.

Apparently the writers realized the same thing, which is why he's been finally removed.
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
Brock was still somewhat interesting in Johto, and I even thought he was still OK in the AG days...it wasn't until DP that it became obvious Brock had lost all purpose in the series.

Apparently the writers realized the same thing, which is why he's been finally removed.
your right. DP was basically the saga of Friendship between Ash and Dawn. Unlike AG that showed more a group dynamic. if anything the writer's gave Brock Happiny on purpose as a way to boot him out. and the fact that in one episode he all of a sudden changes his field of expertise. Especially on that topic I never really felt that Breeding was ever emphasized with Brock only the episodes were he had Vulpix and somewhat every once in a while when a pokemon got sick or didn't want to eat food.
 

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
But you don't watch filler, remeber? You don't want to watch ANY episode that doesn't revolve around the main storyline, so you skip ANY filler that comes up. By your own admission, I don't think it would be outrageous to assume that you've seen less that 30% of the entire pokemon series. That's fine if it satisfies your tastes, do you. I'm just more lenient and will not dismiss an entire episode just because it doesn't advance the story.

I've seen all the episodes in the anime at least once in order while they were still airing when I was a kid so that "seen less that 30% of the entire pokemon series" crack is false. I'm curious why you're such an elitist about watching filler.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
I will agree that between the episodes after Ash beat Whitney to the episodes where Ash battled Chuck ( Mostly all of Johto League Champions) I was sort of getting bored with it. In that season the only things that interested me were the Gym battle against Morty. Chiokrita's evolution and development. the Celebi movie, the Mewtwo special, and Chuck's battle.
There were some episodes from Johto league Champions which were quite fun and amusing imo.Like "Unbearable" with Misty wanting to capture Teddiursa,"Sick Daze" which tested Ash and Misty adaptability to take care of things without Brock."Hook,Line and Stinker"(episode about fishing contest),"Rung Masters"where Snorlax won earning King stone which was later used to evolve Poliwhirl etc.

Johto did have an initital air of freshness to it...but it died down quickly.
Depends for who.While i didnt liked much middle of Johto,Master Quest felt fresh and new actually enjoying in show again.Like i said its ungrateful to throw all parts of Johto in same basket.

My my, how times would change 10 years later where people actually want Brock gone....
Most people didnt wanted Brock gone,but that actually writers start doing something with character and its story pulling him out from stagnation.Hence explaining complaints which started already in Johto.

Brock was still somewhat interesting in Johto, and I even thought he was still OK in the AG days...it wasn't until DP that it became obvious Brock had lost all purpose in the series.
People and heir double standards.Misty was more interesting and active than Brock was in Johto,but for some reason that is ignored.

Speaking of Brock,its rather exaggerating to say how he lost all purpose in DP. Brock career as breeder actually received better treatment in DP than it did in AG.For start his pokemon received better focus overall(especially Croagunk and to extent Happiny).He got for first time pokemon egg raising it to healthy Chansey which allowed that h use breeding skills to full potential.His character got some pretty good focus and interacting between some characters(like nurse JOys,Holly,maid girl from MIltank Cafe)and he did had some mmorable moments with Ash and Dawn.He also got to play some role in Team Galactic arc,won pokemon transformation contest,participated in tag battle tournament etc.

Main problem in Sinnoh was that focus was often put on Ash and Dawn being two co-stars around who story revolved with Brock character often being left behind not being given much attention as character.That and emphasize on Ash and Dawn friendship forced Brock out of group dynamic.

Somone may say,but Brock wasnt getting much in Johto or AG either.Well compared to DP it was significantly more.

Its needed to remember how Dawn received much more focus than Misty and May did being almost equal to Ash with there no being left much space to give more to Brock.Majority of DP episodes were about training of two co.-stars pokemon,practicing for appeals,focusing on their rivals and contests and gyms respectively.Likewise passiveness of his breeder goal also represented issue since this didnt had much to do with battling ,competing or having benchmarks through which progression can be measured .It was mostly about taking care of pokemon,preparing food and keeping them in good form representing problems for writers to give him more to do.

When formula changed afterwards with BW this allowed writers to better distribute focus among main cast.Cilan wouldnt get half as much he does now if he was brought in Sinnoh instead of Brock.

Apparently the writers realized the same thing, which is why he's been finally removed.
That has nothing to do with Brock departure.People complained about Brock ever since Johto but he was still kept.Main and in reality only logical reason why Brock left after so long is because of revamp which happened in Black and White games.New generation promotes vibe of "new start"portraying Unova as foreign and isolated country with writers just mirroring games with new series.

For that reason,contests were removed after 8 years,Brock left,formula changed back to Ash as only main star with Cilan and Iris being sidekicks along with references to past being kept to minimum.

This also explains why there are no older pokemon present in Unova.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I've seen all the episodes in the anime at least once in order while they were still airing when I was a kid so that "seen less that 30% of the entire pokemon series" crack is false. I'm curious why you're such an elitist about watching filler.
I'm sorry but because of your stance on filler episodes, it would've helped your position a lot if you had said that first. Initially, you never said that you watched all the episodes when they were originally airing until NOW. Because of that, you made it seem as if you were one of those oh so many people who quit watching the show when Johto was airing.

When the subject of filler episodes first came up, you said that
"more obvious filler is easier to skip if you don't want to watch it and get to the 'important' stuff."
Then you said
"I don't want a break from the main story, so I will skip any filler that comes up."
Judging from your previous statements, it seems as if you already KNEW what episodes were gonna be filler, and which ones would advance the main plot. So like I said, it would've helped your position a lot more in the beginning had you said that you watched the episodes when they were initially airing because you basically made it seem like you just skipped them all.
 
So I have a question, for the people who regularly rewatch Johto, what do you guys think about it? Do you agree the quality declined from Kanto/Orange?

How did you feel about the original trio in Johto? Was it less memorable than in Kanto? Did you find Ash's Johto team nostalgic or exciting to watch? How do you feel about the pacing, battles, or general episodes?
 

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
I'm sorry but because of your stance on filler episodes, it would've helped your position a lot if you had said that first. Initially, you never said that you watched all the episodes when they were originally airing until NOW. Because of that, you made it seem as if you were one of those oh so many people who quit watching the show when Johto was airing.

When the subject of filler episodes first came up, you said that Then you said

Judging from your previous statements, it seems as if you already KNEW what episodes were gonna be filler, and which ones would advance the main plot. So like I said, it would've helped your position a lot more in the beginning had you said that you watched the episodes when they were initially airing because you basically made it seem like you just skipped them all.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I stopped watching just because I prefer to skip filler or that filler made up 70% of the series.

So I have a question, for the people who regularly rewatch Johto, what do you guys think about it? Do you agree the quality declined from Kanto/Orange?

How did you feel about the original trio in Johto? Was it less memorable than in Kanto? Did you find Ash's Johto team nostalgic or exciting to watch? How do you feel about the pacing, battles, or general episodes?
1. Mediocre
2. Yes
3. I found Misty much more tolerable and was starting to dislike Brock, Ash was fine.
4. More memorable actually.
5. Not nostalgic, but some of the fights were fun.
6.Pacing was ****, battles were fine, anything that wasn't filler was good.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
What is this with you? Not everyone likes filler in any capacity as much as you do.
While I agree that he overly defends filler as a whole, I can't say that I agree with all filler episodes being low quality.

Just as some story progressive episodes are low in quality, there are filler episodes which have creativity. Even with Johto, episodes be they significant or just filler should be judged on a case by case basis.
 
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Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I have a better question. This is of course, for you Cyber. I think it's ok to assume that you were displeased with how the Johto saga was handled with the bad pacing, decline in quality from Kanto/Orange, etc....

I want to know, did you ever stop watching the anime while Johto was airing because of your dissatisfaction with it??
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
So I have a question, for the people who regularly rewatch Johto, what do you guys think about it? Do you agree the quality declined from Kanto/Orange?

How did you feel about the original trio in Johto? Was it less memorable than in Kanto? Did you find Ash's Johto team nostalgic or exciting to watch? How do you feel about the pacing, battles, or general episodes?
To answer question,quality decreased in some segments like episodes becoming too formulatic and repetitive(applied to excessive use of fillers).Ash rivals and pokemon were treated badly,plots were butchered(like GS ball),Misty and Brock didnt got enough focus with their story ending up underdeveloped and Rocket trio started to feel stale going nowhere.

However original trio(Ash,Misty and Brock) in Johto still actually felt like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments.They felt like group which knew themselves very well having their principles,certain spark and better dynamic than it was case with some other groups like DP was(at least in my opinion).

Battles were a lot better compared to first 2 seasons,Ash sidekicks actually battled more receiving some notable focus and growth,we got several great arcs and memorable gym leaders,return from older characters(like Todd,Duplica or Aya) and there are many episodes from this region i always like to go back and watch being well written and enjoyable.

Final thought:Johto did many things wrong feeling like step down,but it wasnt garbage having good things and improvements compared to Kanto which are often unfairly missed and overlooked.
 
I have a better question. This is of course, for you Cyber. I think it's ok to assume that you were displeased with how the Johto saga was handled with the bad pacing, decline in quality from Kanto/Orange, etc....

I want to know, did you ever stop watching the anime while Johto was airing because of your dissatisfaction with it??
Nope I still watched every episode. Keep in mind at the time I just always watched Saturday morning cartoons so I watched Pokemon because that's what was on. I also thought the anime was going to end after Johto so I figured I might as well just see every episode.

From what I gather, most people who stopped watching Johto did so shortly after Goldenrod City.
 

RickHoenn

Banned
From what I gather, most people who stopped watching Johto did so shortly after Goldenrod City.
Why the ratings for all the Johto arc were stable and then declined at the start of AG?

Most people did not stopped watching Johto midway through it, they saw all of Johto but a lot of them grew up from the show when Hoenn started.

I remember the first time I didn't watch much of JLC but that's because I was starting to watch MTV and such but then I picked up on reruns and watched the last episodes of JLC and all of Master Quest.

From my point of view: Hoenn >>>>>>>> Johto BUT most of my friends in school after Johto League ended dropped the show, it was so weird back then lol I was one of the few that kept loyal to the anime (games never stopped being popular tho).
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
Nope I still watched every episode. Keep in mind at the time I just always watched Saturday morning cartoons so I watched Pokemon because that's what was on. I also thought the anime was going to end after Johto so I figured I might as well just see every episode.

From what I gather, most people who stopped watching Johto did so shortly after Goldenrod City.
But why? Why wouldn't you just stop watching it?? If you were so displeased with it, I don't see why you didn't just abandon it like the others...It's not like they weren't gonna show the episodes anymore...

It's also ironic that there's people who don't like how BW is being handled, and they don't like Iris specifically, but they'll sit through it and put themselves through the pain and agony of watching it. Well, we have all these anime websites that stream the links for episodes, we have blog sites that host them, and we have Youtube now, so you can watch any episode of anything you want really. I always suggest to people that they can simply just stop watching the show, and catch them later, but I'm always being labeled as the "irrational one"....Oh well...
 
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