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Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by CyberCubed, Oct 14, 2011.

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  1. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    People probably read this post of mine before, but I am going to re-post it here as I clearly explain everything that went wrong with Johto:

    I think the initial problem with Johto is we all thought it was going to keep Kanto's sense of adventure, humor and slight darkness. But it didn't. Johto was clearly toned down from what had come before it, and everything that people loved about Kanto felt like it was being eradicated over the course of the Johto arc. I suppose the problem with Johto is the writers didn't exactly know what they wanted to do with it. It was only the second full region they ever did, not counting Orange Islands, and the only thing on their mind at the time was, "OK Tracey is gone and we brought Brock back, that's all we needed to do."

    So the original trio was reunited...for what? A boring adventure where Ash mostly helped COTD's with their problems?

    There was also many what I consider, "jump the shark" moments:

    1. The abrupt departures of Charizard and Squirtle, yet keeping Bulbasaur through the 6th Gym. They should have either left them all behind at once or gradually phased them out closer together. Of course at the time it seemed like Charizard and Squirtle were released like Pidgeot, thank god that didn't happen.

    2. The dropping of the GS ball. Yes we know why they did it, but it was still horrible.

    3. Poor handing of Ash's Johto team. Only Bayleef was really handled decently. Cyndaquil and Totodile both deserved to evolve but never did, Noctowl/Heracross/Phanpy didn't get much proper screentime.

    4. Too many fillers. Johto has more filler than any other arc, and almost ALL OF IT is exactly the same. This is where Ash started helping COTD's non-stop and TR just stole Pikachu in every episode.

    5. Misty and Brock were mishandled. If you watch Best Wishes, you know exactly what they should have done with Misty and Brock:

    - Misty and Brock had no rivals
    - They rarely engaged in battle
    - Their pokemon teams remained stagnant, because they kept their Kanto pokemon
    - The new Pokemon they did get, like Crobat and Politoed, felt like it meant so little because they were hardly used
    - Their storylines felt like they were put on the backburner for Ash's quest

    That being said Brock was still funny in Johto, so I'll cut him some slack. The original trio didn't have as good chemistry as in kanto, but it was overall decent.

    6. The Gym battles were better than Kanto's. Nothing too amazing. Whitney's Gym was just ridiculous though.

    7. No new characters. We got Casey...um, OK? Where was Silver? Where were the new recurring characters?

    8. Gary was mishandled. This is the last time Gary was the main rival, and we only see him 3 times before the league? Really, writers?

    9. Although this is minor, Ash keeping his Kanto clothes. They got old by this point.

    10. Almost 60-70% of the saga is skippable and you won't miss anything important. If I can skip that many episodes and I feel like I'm not missing anything story wise or development wise, then there is a problem.

    11. Too damn long. Why did Johto need 3 years? Why not make it shorter and give us a filler arc afterward?

    12. Misty holding Togepi for the entire span of Johto was the worst mistake the writers made with the character. It limited Misty's involvement in the saga and Togepi itself just became boring and pointless. Can you believe a female protagonist basically held an egg all saga? Why didn't we get Togetic back here?

    13. Team Rocket. They adapted a few TR parts from the games, but not all of them. Giovanni should have had a bigger role in this saga.

    Johto had some good points, like Wobbufett and some funny episodes here and there, but these 13 "Jump the shark" moments ruined it for me.

    Thanks to all the complaining and Shudo's departure and Tomioka taking over, the writers revamped the anime afterward and never looked back.
  2. Haunter ゴースト

    Haunter ゴースト Well-Known Member

    I hate to say it but everything in this post of yours is right about Johto.

    Despite my love for it being nostalgic and stuff, everything is so true.

    Not that i've never thought these things before, it just becomes a lot clearer in a list like this, the one thing Johto needed which could have helped would have been some other important sub-plot.

    By the sounds of it the GS ball aimed to do that, spanning over a good amount of the saga, it makes you wonder what they were going to do.

    I can imagine it would be something like travelling to (said) location returning/delivering Celebi to it's home or something.

    And Suicune, sensing danger comes to help out occasionally through the arc.

    Who knows but I really wish we could get shown a script/idea on what was going to happen.
  3. I always thought they did it because they wanted to make a Johto.
  4. Haunter ゴースト

    Haunter ゴースト Well-Known Member

    Nah not even that, they wanted to make the Pokemon franchise bigger than it already was and rake in even more money with another series.
  5. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    Cyber, I really think that while you do make some good points, not all of them are good...and I think that you do overempasize all the shortcomings of the Johto saga blowing them WAY out of proportion...I'd go into detail about how grossly you're being a bit too critical of the series IMO, and would like to point out the things that Johto did improve upon from the previous series, but I think we already know that you don't give a damn...

    I just don't understand why you're on this crusade to seemingly brainwash and indoctrinate as many people possible in the fandom to completely hate and dismiss the Johto saga as being the abysmal black sheep of the pokemon series...That no one should partake in watching it, enjoying it, and taking every opportunity possible to criticize it anymore.

    Who wants to constantly take these trips down memory lane intentionally focusing on the negative traits of this series? And you know what's most ironic about this whole thing? You probably thank those who stopped watching during Johto, who complained, and killed yourself in the process of watcing it, and were so glad once Shudo was gone from the writing staff, and HAIL AG onwards in the Pokemon Anime as the writers abandoning their past and never looking back as if it was the messiah's decision that saved the series.

    But it's really funny how you praise AG, DP, BW etc with all the other series of pokemon with such approval and high praise, but you NEVER EVER talk about them nearly as much as Johto. As much as you are devoted to May and AG, you never mention or talk about them that much and how many wonders they did for the show. Know why? Because you're always so focused on what Johto did WRONG to mess the show up...That's a lot of attention dedicated for a saga in pokemon history that cause so much pain for it to be watched on a regular basis according to you, even if it's negative.

    I can only wonder when you and others will stop beating this dead horse beyond recognition with such pessimistic tones in favor of taking a slightly more positive stance on this saga in particular as a whole.
  6. Haunter ゴースト

    Haunter ゴースト Well-Known Member

    If im being honest, looking back now the best things of the Johto saga were a handful of fillers, the gym battles, the whirl islands arc and the league, even though I hate to say it so much I really can't think of many other things besides the nostalgic memories.
  7. RickHoenn

    RickHoenn Banned


    I already said Cyber is kinda obsessed with Johto and take any chance to criticize it, I mean it's almost 10 years since it finished. :eek: But like you said I think Cyber is just trying to make people hate the Johto arc in these forums. XD
  8. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    In my opinion Johto had more good than others tend to give it credit for.So in this post im going to focus only on positive things.
    One of good things was that original trio still felt like family being portrayed as group of friends which knew each other for a long time whole having fun traveling together and exploring new region starting to mature a bit.

    One of things i liked about Misty in this region is that she had great dynamic with several characters like fire trainer Egan explaining why she likes water pokemon,drawing nice parallel with Sakura with connection of both having older sisters becoming good friends and rivals in a way,Andreas from Seaking tournament with who he had a bad start later on gaining his respect etc.
    She also had great connection with Brock and Ash having several memorable moments with them.

    I also enjoyed in Whirl Cup being nice change of pace from usual gyms with some nice focus being put on her goal of water master defining it better introducing in Whirl islands ton of great water pokemon and trainers like Luka which later reappeared in Lugia arc.I also liked several episodes where Misty showed ability to get group put of dangerous situations with her intelligence coming into play.Like when she helped group to find way out of forest with Hoot Hoot help in "Illusion Confusion",when she helped saving Pikachu,Togepi and Sentret from giant Rocket tank in "Tanks alot",when she teamed up with Jams and Meowth when group got separated helping them to escape from Ursaring and finding other half of group with there being involved some hilarious interactions,when etc.

    Sam for Brock he had several noteworthy interactions with various characters like Suzy entering breeding competition and returning Vulpix after such a long time,his flirting over girls didnt stayed just on running gag establishing some great and memorable interaction with Temaku,dr.Anna etc.
    I liked that he received several episodes focusing on his carer as breeder displaying great deal of knowledge in episodes like "Little big Horn","A Better Pill to Swallow","Going Apricorn"etc.

    I also liked various mini tournaments Ash entered bringing something fresh and different,Like when he entered pokemon sumo competition with Snorlax in "Ring Masters",grass tournament with Bulbasaur in "Grass route",fire and rescue Grand Prix in "Fire-ring Squad"using his and Misty water pokemon etc or when all three went to pokemon school to help kids out .

    There were also several great episodes introducing legendaries like Entei,Suicune,Zapdos,Lugia,Artuicuno etc.
    Jigglypuff and Delibird were definitely among Johto highlights bringing comedy and many funny moments. Snubull wasnt that bad as recurring pokemon though i feel he lacked some substance to make him truly shine.

    All in all my favorite season from Johto was Master Quest while Johto Journeys and Johto league champions were quite bad having some highlights but alas too many bad things as well outshining those good moments.

    Even when i watched it for first time i never expected it to be replica from Kanto.Johto was treated like sequel to series with writers intention not being to turn it in second Kanto.

    For record Kanto "darkness",slapstick humor,use of guns etc all started to disappear at end of it and in OI.

    This is clearly blowing things out of proportion because there was much more to Johto than just your average boring fillers.Original group had several entertaining moments with Johto introducing some new things as others like Champion Jared already pointed out.

    While i agree with most of your points(more or less)why is Brock excluded out from equation with only Misty being brought back?

    When i watched Johto it can be clearly noticed how Brock took the biggest hit as character there.He barely battled,had very little involvement within characters and interactions and received less character centric episodes than anyone else in group did.At times it made it seem like Brock wasnt even present due to how badly he got shafted.

    Misty despite all mishandling actually received more focus,battled more,had her own arc(like Whirl Cup) and had more involvement in group chemistry and interaction with characters which can b noticed with established relationship with several characters out there(Like Andreas,Dorian,Octillery kid,Gligar girl etc,etc,etc).

    In all honesty last time i checked Misty did more in Johto than just holding Togepi battling more compared to Kanto and OI, started to do more with goal of becoming water master by entering Whirl Cup,Seaking catching contest,battled gym leader Dorian,revealed why she likes water pokemon so much in episodes like "Some like it Hot",formed rivalry bonding with several characters like Sakura or Egan,helped save group couple of times like she get them out of forest in Hoot,Hoot episode or helped to save Pikachu and Togepi from giant TR tank got over her complex of inferiority which was caused by sisters starting to mature as character etc,etc.Not to mention she also added humor and fun chemistry within group having entertaining interactions with many characters in that saga contributing to healthy and quality dynamic with her personality.Whenever she got screen time and chance to shine she usually did something memorable and worthwhile of watching.

    Most is true,but not all with some things being blown out from proportion.

    I believe chemistry between original trio,arcs like Red Gyarados,Lugia,Larvitar or Dragonite as well Rocket funny antics were also one of better points about Johto being saving grace for good chunk of Johto episodes which wouldnt be watchable otherwise.
  9. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    I am not saying people shouldn't watch Johto, I am saying they SHOULD watch Johto but acknowledge its flaws. It also justifies why the show changed after Johto ended and sets the record for the next 9 years of the show.

    Even Best Wishes which is the most similar to the older seasons is still being handled much differently. Everything that happened in the anime since is justified by what went wrong with Johto and how the writers acknowledged it.
  10. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    But what are really true flaws of Johto?For some things like whether episodes were enjoyable or not,origional trio had entertainment value,TR was funny etc there is no set criteria through which it can be determined if this elements were good or not.

    Thats matter of personal opinion with people having different tastes.Things which are possible to determine as bad are lack of screen time and development for characters,rivals and some pokemon being treated badly,formula of episodes becoming too formulatic and repetitive etc.

    Everything else depends on personal viewpoint.
    Likewise how come we dont never hear being talked about Hoenn bad points?All i can say is there were several things which could have used improvement.

    Last but not the least some people dont seem to understand how reuniting original group wasnt mistake,with reason why Johto did what it did being due to poor decisions and writing.If anyone else came instead of Misty and Brock with current writing at that time nothing would have changed for better.
    If writers applied same quality like they did with Master Quest which was followed up with AG series,there would be no problems with Johto.

    Mr,Shudo frustration and writers not realizing some of mistakes until later was responsible for some things getting of the track,nothing else.Meaning how even if writers used alternative and original trio stayed for Hoenn,due to writers acknowledging mistakes with new writer doing series construction Hoenn would be largely different from Johto.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2011
  11. Demonsead

    Demonsead Hoenn Challenger

  12. Mesarin

    Mesarin Well-Known Member

    I think alot of it was an attempt to tie up loose ends, and just got lost in itself.
  13. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Well the reason Johto turned into fillers was because Shudo stepped down as the series constructor, and none of the other writers knew what to do with the show at the time.

    It wasn't until Tomioka, who was also there since the beginning of Kanto, took charge of the series during the late Johto era that the series started to have direction again.
  14. Caseydia

    Caseydia Ace Trainer

    Johto still was entirely different than Kanto. Even filler wise. However, I believe they still were game based and that alot of Kanto Pokemon were in the Johto region because if we look at the game it's technically the same. However, keeping Misty and Brock didn't need to happen but they did because they were too lazy to make newer ones. I still stand by what I say regarding the lazyness of writing throughout alot of the series.
  15. xJeffx

    xJeffx Well-Known Member

    The Johto saga was one of the few sagas where Team Rocket got a major role. The episodes with the Red Gyarados and baby Lugia were team rockets' best highlights in the series.
  16. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Its kinda funny how the "fandom view" on the Johto saga never really changed, even after 9 years.

    The way fans originally viewed the Johto saga back when it was airing in 2001/2002 is the same way its viewed now in 2011, nearly 10 years later.

    The same complaints still exist, which is understandable as the episodes don't change and are the same now as they were back then. I think the only difference now is we can reflect on how much the series changed after Johto ended and what exactly happened in the 3 generations that followed.
  17. ~Upsidedown 403~

    ~Upsidedown 403~ Well-Known Member

    It would've been nice to see other grunts sell slowpoke tails or taking over the goldenrod radio tower...
  18. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    Im no sure why it is tried to put whole fanbase in same basket acting like everyone have same view about Johto when this clearly isnt true.There exist several people out there who liked Johto saga being able to enjoy in it with fandom views being various.

    Generally from what i notoced though people biggest complaints about Johto are drop of GS ball,too many fillers,lack of screen time for Ash rivals and pokemon,Misty and Brock not getting enough development,anime story being often in stagnation not moving forward etc.

    Things which are liked about Johto:several arcs(like Lugia,Whirl Cup.Larvitar etc),battles becoming better,better portrayal and introduction of gym leaders,original trio still having good chemistry and character interaction feeling close as group than DP did which culminated in memorable departure,Johto league,Team Rocket(although opinions vary about them there)along with Johto feeling fresh initially having good chunk of great episodes.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  19. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Sometimes I am curious how many people actually did watch all of Johto throughout its original run. The common view I hear is people stopped sometime after Goldenrod City, which was the third Gym. Others made it up to the 6th Gym, which was Jasmine.

    It took 3 entire years for Johto to air on TV back when it was new, so I wonder how many people watched it through all 3 years when it was a new series.
  20. Demonsead

    Demonsead Hoenn Challenger

    I did, granted back then filler never bothered me.
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