Was the original intent of Johto to make a second Kanto?

[CyberCubed]

I couldn't believe how long the gaps of some Gyms were. You'd think they'd evolve Ash's team bit but they didn't do that either.

 

[randomspot555]

I couldn't believe how long the gaps of some Gyms were. You'd think they'd evolve Ash's team bit but they didn't do that either.

Even modern evolutions of Johto Pokes kind of sucked. Cyndaquil evolves into Quilava, learns Eruption, but in the follow up battle:

2/3rds of battle takes place off screen
Isn't shown to use Eruption (though it's learned Aerial Ace, big whoop)
Faints in a tie KO

Oh, and Johto Boy's Totodile/Crockanaw knew Superpower but never used it. So wanted him to use it too.

Moved from the other thread that was closed:

First of all, the original intent of the games was to end Pokemon with Gold and Silver

Not to my knowledge.

I know exactly where this originated from though.

About 3 months or so ago, there was a thread in GPD with some guy who was working on the games in Gen I and Gen II. He said that he felt he was finished with the games after GS and no longer wanted to work on them. And ta-da! He no longer does! Self-fulfilling prophecy! He took a position at The Pokemon Company (the company that handles the non-games aspect of the franchise), and holds that position to this day.

SOMEHOW this morphed into "OMGZERS POKEYMANZ WAS GONNA END WITH GS!!!111!1!!11!1!!"

Now come on, seriously, why in the world would they consider ending the successful franchise at GS? Increased sales, Pokemon stuff everywhere, etc...

The only certain "originally plan to end" thing in Pokemon was the anime, which was originally intended to end with Kanto (hell, they were probably prepared to wrap it up well before then if they were forced to).

I will give Johto some slack though. Unlike Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova, there isn't a strong "plot" to build a region around (though as seen in AG, just because you have an Evil Team do something in the games doesn't mean it'll go well in the anime). Team Rocket is pretty much a joke in the Gen II games (and originally, Giovanni doesn't even appear). Eusinine/Suicine was an interesting little plot, but that didn't come until Crystal. And the later half of the game is spent in Kanto (retread) and battling Red (kind of impossible).

So basically, the games don't give the anime writers a whole lot to write about besides Gym Battles and stuff like Bug Catching and what have you.

So the anime writers are left with a whole region, a few new mechanics to explore (shinyness, Steel/Dark types), but overall, it's pretty much a blank slate as far as the anime is concerned.

They still could've done better, but the games didn't give them much to work with.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

So basically, the games don't give the anime writers a whole lot to write about besides Gym Battles and stuff like Bug Catching and what have you.

So the anime writers are left with a whole region, a few new mechanics to explore (shinyness, Steel/Dark types), but overall, it's pretty much a blank slate as far as the anime is concerned.

This pretty much sums it up perfectly...The saga was designed to promote the games that were centered around the Johto region at the time...And it was meant to last until the new batch of games were released. Honestly, there wasn't that much to work with considering Johto's size doesn't vary greatly from Kanto. The plot/storyline wasn't really that long and I guess people think it was an attempt at a Kanto remake for whatever reason...But that's only because Johto IS directly linked with Kanto in the games...

Meh, they could've done better though I don't know how, but looking back it did remain quite faithful to the storyline of the games.

 

[Arachnae]

Johto is my favorite saga.

I think it had the best opening theme of them all and it introduced my favorite set of pokemon.

Other than that its just nostalgia, I certainly do acknowledge that a lot of the episodes are horrid.

 

[Dephender]

I know exactly where this originated from though.

About 3 months or so ago, there was a thread in GPD with some guy who was working on the games in Gen I and Gen II. He said that he felt he was finished with the games after GS and no longer wanted to work on them. And ta-da! He no longer does! Self-fulfilling prophecy! He took a position at The Pokemon Company (the company that handles the non-games aspect of the franchise), and holds that position to this day.

SOMEHOW this morphed into "OMGZERS POKEYMANZ WAS GONNA END WITH GS!!!111!1!!11!1!!"

Pretty sure it comes from here, actually.

Iwata:
You’ve just used the term “ultimate” and I feel that even in their names, Gold and Silver were meant to be the ultimate in Pokémon games.
Ishihara:
That’s right. After we released Red and Green, we began working on these titles, thinking that the ultimate in Pokémon games could only ever be Gold and Silver.
Iwata:
Not in your wildest dreams did you think that you’d be making more and more games after Gold and Silver. (laughs)
Ishihara:
The reason that I licensed so many products and developed things like the trading cards was basically to ensure that Gold and Silver were successful. I felt that this was my primary role. So at that time, I worked with the assumption that after we put out Gold and Silver, my work as far as Pokémon was concerned would be done.
Iwata:
I see.
Ishihara:
So for me, Gold and Silver represented the finish line.

So, essentially misreading "we assumed this would be it" as "we had initially decided this would be the final game".

 

[pokemon fan 132]

They still could've done better, but the games didn't give them much to work with.

Agreed,Gold and Silver looking back were lacking enriched storyline and new features to allow writers to implement new ideas toward show at that time.It was basically treated as direct sequel to Kanto games revisiting older gym leaders and places with anime reflecting on that.

However that doesnt excuse writers entirely because there were several things they could have done to improve quality of Johto.,Like for start giving more development and screen time to Brock and Misty.Whirl Cup seemed like a good start to explore someone story and if they dedicated more episodes toward traveling companions advancing their drams as opposite to wasting it on pointless fillers that would change general viewpoint of "Johto=filler"significantly.

They could carry on with GS ball plot introducing celebi in way it was originally planned to.Gave more focus to Ash rivals like Gary or new aspiring trainer Casey developing some intense and good rivalry between them instead of neglecting them appearing once in a blue moon.Gary was rarely seen and Casey was portrayed as joke of a trainer not even encountering Ash at league due to failing to qualify for it.
They could evolve some of Ash Johto pokemon focusing more on their development and development of Misty and Brock pokemon,unlike it used to b case with Johto pokemon fighting for focus with Kanto ones,etc.

Ill give writers how at that time they lacked experience to handle some things correctly not being used to write for long regions which had to be stretched out for so long,and mr,Shudo lack of car and interest didnt helped either.But at end of the day they didnt used what they had in Johto to full potential,thats pretty much undeniable.

Though in Master Quest they improved several things getting characters and anime back on right path.This season had entertaining characters,creative use of focus not wasting it so much on fillers along with introducing several new things.Last season of Johto felt refreshing having same writing style which was used in AG.

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On positive note contrary to some people belief original trio still had enjoyable chemistry.Ash was still naive but also started to mature with other two keeping him in check.Misty showed plenty of personality interacting great with several other non characters too(like Sakura,Egan,Dorian,Andreas,etc) being still spunky and hotheaded,but also more mature and playful starting to develop and learn how to become more patient and supportive with passionate love for hobbies(especially water types) being more often displayed compared to Kanto and OI.
While Brock was keeping everything on hold from falling apart being source of wisdom and knowledge.

It can be noticed how close group they were during whole course of Johto with Misty sarcastic inputs and adventurous attitude,Ash bratty and impulsive side and Brock calm and rational personality providing humor and good chemistry.Heck even Brock and Misty had memorable moments talking about girls and love while keeping each other in check when becoming too obsessive("Heartbreak of Brock","Corsola Caper","hassle in the Castle"etc) with his sickness showing best how much they were dependent on his help when he got sick(twice counting banned episode) having to overcome their differences.

Only reason why we didnt had their dynamic appearing on daily basis is because many episodes were following repetitive formula of fillers concentrating on COTD and problems with their pokemon with main cast taking backseat not being much active than.

 

[Demonsead]

Pretty sure it comes from here, actually.



So, essentially misreading "we assumed this would be it" as "we had initially decided this would be the final game".

That sound reasonable. Some people could have been mislead by this.

 

[randomspot555]

Pretty sure it comes from
So, essentially misreading "we assumed this would be it" as "we had initially decided this would be the final game".

I think the key word is "My work blah blah blah". He's saying that, to him personally, this was the end of the line and he was going to go all out. It isn't indicative of any type of planned ending.

 

[CyberCubed]

Its no surprise Best Wishes is faster paced, the writers probably don't want it to be as long and drawn out as Johto was.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Its no surprise Best Wishes is faster paced, the writers probably don't want it to be as long and drawn out as Johto was.

Sinnoh was even longer and drawn out than Johto was so im not sure where your getting at with that.Johto as saga had its good moments but lack of storyline in games and writers inexperience caused that some potentially great things end up wasted.

If this didnt happened,it wouldnt really matter for how long Johto lasted.However either way Johto is highly underrated as region with people forgetting many great things which were introduced there with Misty and Brock getting some good development,Ash developing new battling strategies starting to slowly mature along with battles,story arcs and gym leaders being portrayed in better light.

Beside we dont know yet for how long Unova will last and if there is going to be another type of side adventure.

 

[CyberCubed]

Unova is shorter because there aren't two sidequests going on and like before and there aren't as many plotlines going on.

While Unova is probably going to be a bit longer than Kanto was, its great that they're not filling up the region with endless filler episodes, although there has been an increase in filler in the series lately.

 

[Tisub Lord of Kummi]

Johto was a fluke in terms of the time it was released. All generations after it, the anime was released at about the same time as the games. While the original saga came much later than the game. To counteract this mismatch the company did the following:

1. Create non-game related filler OI saga because G/S was delayed
2. Include additional filler episodes in Johto to last until the game generation cycle ends

These measures have no been necessary since then. BW might be another exception because of the change to the 3DS, which came after the official start of the 5th gen.

If G/S was released on time, which was supposed to be around the end of the Indigo League then you can expect it to have been an even longer series.

The reason myths about the OS or Johto being the "real end" of the series are still being quoted even now is due to a romanticized notion that the original trio was going to have a fairy tale ending. Perhaps something like Ash winning the league or show them all grown up with Ash and Misty together. The reality is a lot more mundane, the game developers and anime department just had to modify their schedules as they were learning how maximize their profit from this franchise.

 

[pokeaussie37]

Johto was a fluke in terms of the time it was released. All generations after it, the anime was released at about the same time as the games. While the original saga came much later than the game. To counteract this mismatch the company did the following:

1. Create non-game related filler OI saga because G/S was delayed
2. Include additional filler episodes in Johto to last until the game generation cycle ends

These measures have no been necessary since then. BW might be another exception because of the change to the 3DS, which came after the official start of the 5th gen.

If G/S was released on time, which was supposed to be around the end of the Indigo League then you can expect it to have been an even longer series.

I think with this, that they wouldn't have made Johto last 200 episodes if this was the case. As it was all the original series still I think they might have had a filler saga of some sort otherwise Johto would have been mind-numbingly boring, for me at least. I don't mind the Johto saga as it is now (albeit I missed the entirety of Master Quest, unintentionally) but adding an extra 40 episodes or so would have made it much more boring, unless they really focused on the main group's Pokemon development.

 

[Tisub Lord of Kummi]

I think with this, that they wouldn't have made Johto last 200 episodes if this was the case. As it was all the original series still I think they might have had a filler saga of some sort otherwise Johto would have been mind-numbingly boring, for me at least. I don't mind the Johto saga as it is now (albeit I missed the entirety of Master Quest, unintentionally) but adding an extra 40 episodes or so would have made it much more boring, unless they really focused on the main group's Pokemon development.

Johto was probably made in mind to please a worldwide audience, unlike the original saga. The animators had no idea Pokemon was going to get that big, probably they thought it would only be famous in Japan. But by the end of '98 and beginning of '99 they had to tone down certain things. OS had quite a number of Japanese cultural references while Johto (as far as I remember) lacked these kind of things. The best animes seem to be those that have only a Japanese audience in mind, otherwise a lot of it gets censored when it leaves Japan.

 

[CyberCubed]

I don't see why they didn't make more mini-arcs. Johto has dozens and dozens of filler.

They could have at least replaced it with some interesting mini-arcs or tournaments. They did tend to do this in Master Quest, but it felt like too little, too late by that point.

 

[Sayho1234]

Johto was probably made in mind to please a worldwide audience, unlike the original saga. The animators had no idea Pokemon was going to get that big, probably they thought it would only be famous in Japan. But by the end of '98 and beginning of '99 they had to tone down certain things. OS had quite a number of Japanese cultural references while Johto (as far as I remember) lacked these kind of things.

Actually the start of the changing the style of the anime in order to please a worldwide audience had actually started in OI and not Johto! The whole reason why the character Tracey was created in the first place was to please a worldwide audience. Also Johto is a part of OS.

 

[CyberCubed]

Also Johto is a part of OS.

In retrospect it is, but if the writers knew what they knew now, they probably would have treated Johto as a separate series.

That's how most people viewed it originally. Johto was considered an entirely separate arc and a "whole new world" when it first started.

I bet they would have at least given Ash/Misty/Brock new clothes in retrospect. Their Kanto clothes were getting old by that point.

 

[Briankelly130]

Well Tracey wasn't a well liked character exactly, I mean yeah he was fun at times but between him and Brock, you would have picked Brock. As for making it a second Kanto, well the region is connected to Kanto so there could have been some idea that the two were similar. And as for Filler, something tells me that if the 4th movie hadn't done the Celebi plot, the GS Ball would have become a significant point of the plot and would have replaced a lot of episodes that ended up being there. Maybe one day they'll get back to the GS ball but if they don't, I'm ok with it and as for the Johto arc as a whole, I loved it, theme songs were awesome, some episodes kicked *** and Bugsy will always be my earliest moment of having a crush on a cartoon character.

 

[Sayho1234]

Well Tracey wasn't a well liked character exactly, I mean yeah he was fun at times but between him and Brock, you would have picked Brock.

No I wouldn't! I always loved Tracey more than Brock. Unlike most people, I actually got annoyed with Brock's drooling over girls antics & overall schtick way back in Kanto, and thought that they gave his character a proper conclusion at the start of OI. I loved Tracey because he was mature, attractive, nice, and I could totally relate to him as a kid with the whole drawing thing. When I was a child I loved to draw, and thought that Tracey had the best pokemon career out of all of the 4 main characters from OS.

 

[CyberCubed]

Tracey might have been more successful if he were introduced later on, like maybe when DP started. By that point Brock wasn't as popular as he used to be.

Then again Tracey not being a game character is pretty much what killed him. I don't think the writers would ever make up their own character not from the games again.