Was the rest of Alain's Pokèmon except Charizard given to him by Team Flare?

[345ash-greninja]

Not really. The question once again seems to insist once again that Alain didn't win with his own power. Saying Team Flare gave him Pokemon isn't much different than saying they somehow caused Charizard X to become overpowered.

Not really, because even if those Pokémon were given to him by Team Flare for the League (because if he didn't have a full team of his own he wouldn't be able to compete in the League) those Pokémon still did battle legitimately to win, it's not that those Pokémon were augmented by some machinery or had their health restored by healing items. Alain still had to legitimately and skillfully command those Pokemon in the Kalos League finals to get his win. So that isn't a similar case like saying that Charizard got its power augmented by unfair means whatsoever.

And if you want to emphasize that it indicates that Alain didn't win with his own power if Team Flare gave him Pokemon, then is that much of an issue when Misty loaned Pokemon from Ash and Brock to win a tournament back in OS. Also during the Kanto League Misty did offer Ash to lend him one of his Water Pokemon. It's not really a big issue. And like I said before, prior to the Flare climax, Team Flare didn't commit any criminal activities, so it wasn't already labelled as a crime syndicate from which loaning Pokémon will be illegal.

 

[Red and Blue]

But as with the rigged "theory" if those Pokemon were loaned to him, wouldn't they have mentioned it before and after the league? The fact that they didn't would imply that Alain caught them himself don't you think?

Before meeting Ash all of his fights were one on one. When he revealed his Metang it meant he had more then one Pokemon.

 

[345ash-greninja]

But as with the rigged "theory" if those Pokemon were loaned to him, wouldn't they have mentioned it before and after the league? The fact that they didn't would imply that Alain caught them himself don't you think?

The fact that Alain didn't use his other Pokemon in the fight vs Lysandre, when using at least some of them could've been really useful, IMO leave a slight indication that maybe those Pokemon were given to him by Team Flare. If those Pokemon themselves were actually from Team Flare, then obviously he can't use them against the Team Flare boss Lysandre.

Before meeting Ash all of his fights were one on one. When he revealed his Metang it meant he had more then one Pokemon.

I've already admitted that Metang-->Metagross was very likely his own Pokemon.

You can argue semantics all you want, but it looked a bit specific choice how the writers only showcased his Charizard throughout the entire ME specials, nothing else, and we only got to see one of his other Pokemon, his Metang, in XY&Z23. We never knew that he had any other Pokemon prior to that, and all of a sudden he pulled out an entire team out of absolutely nowhere in the KL finals. Sounds at least a bit ridiculous and hard to believe IMO.

Regardless, this isn't a rigged theory, as @Ignition already mentioned before, this thread is about discussing the actual origins of Alain's other Pokemon, as for how he got them. Nobody is claiming here that he cheated, I've repeatedly mentioned it above that why loaning Pokemon from Team Flare isn't cheating as long as those Pokemon fought in the battle legitimately.

 

[Red and Blue]

The fact that Alain didn't use his other Pokemon in the fight vs Lysandre, when using at least some of them could've been really useful, IMO leave a slight indication that maybe those Pokemon were given to him by Team Flare. If those Pokemon themselves were actually from Team Flare, then obviously he can't use them against the Team Flare boss Lysandre.


I've already admitted that Metang-->Metagross was very likely his own Pokemon.

You can argue semantics all you want, but it looked a bit specific choice how the writers only showcased his Charizard throughout the entire ME specials, nothing else, and we only got to see one of his other Pokemon, his Metang, in XY&Z23. We never knew that he had any other Pokemon prior to that, and all of a sudden he pulled out an entire team out of absolutely nowhere in the KL finals. Sounds at least a bit ridiculous and hard to believe IMO.

Regardless, this isn't a rigged theory, as @Ignition already mentioned before, this thread is about discussing the actual origins of Alain's other Pokemon, as for how he got them. Nobody is claiming here that he cheated, I've repeatedly mentioned it above that why loaning Pokemon from Team Flare isn't cheating as long as those Pokemon fought in the battle legitimately.

How is not using his other Pokemon against Lysandre proof that they weren't his? Maybe he didnt use them because he didnt want to? Kind of flimsy evidence. You agree that Metagross belongs to Alain yet he didn't use it. during the climax.

Again if they weren't his then someone would have pointed that out before the league. Everytime a trainer borrowed Pokemon we knew beforehand.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I think he didn't use his other pokémon because the writers just didn't think of it or didn't care. The battle with Lysandre's Mega Gyarados was honestly among the worst battles to ever be aired in the pokémon anime, I rank it below Metapod vs Metapod on the virtue of taking longer and actually still trying to take itself seriously. Maybe they spent all their time working on the league battles with Sawyer and Alain that they didn't have time left to actually storyboard the big battle with the villain team boss.

 

[345ash-greninja]

How is not using his other Pokemon against Lysandre proof that they weren't his? Maybe he didnt use them because he didnt want to? Kind of flimsy evidence. You agree that Metagross belongs to Alain yet he didn't use it. during the climax.

I never said that it was a proof. I said it could maybe an indication because: if those Pokemon were from Team Flare, he obviously can't use them against the boss of Team Flare.

Regarding Metagross case: Well it has been brought up before that spaciousness was an issue in the top of a tower. There was limited space. So maybe bringing out a huge creature in Metagross there where there was limited space, and it would have been troublesome to fit Metagross alongside Ash's whole Kalos team in the tower, considering the space issues. So maybe that was the reason.

But if we look at it, using Weavile or Bisharp wouldn't have been troublesome, because they were small in size relatively, and would have fit well in the tower alongside Ash's Kalos team. So not using them is a bit fishy to me when they could have been useful there, and especially Bisharp was shown to be among his stronger Pokemon in the team he used vs Ash in the KL finals.

In that Lysandre battle, we saw that everyone was giving it their all in that fight, using multiple Pokemon, like Lysander using both his Gyarados and Pyroar, Ash using his whole team, but Alain using.....only his Charizard, that too just 2 episodes after he used an entire team against Ash. I was expecting him to go all out too by using some of his other Pokemon which would'be been useful.

Again if they weren't his then someone would have pointed that out before the league. Everytime a trainer borrowed Pokemon we knew beforehand.

Absolutely everything isn't outright stated in this show though, sometimes certain things are also implied/indicated.

 

[Genaller]

Sawyer, Tierno and Trevor didn't have that much of a involvement in the Team Flare arc, they were...just helping people evacuate, that's it. The didn't have to face an epic strong foe like Ash amid Alain did, like against Lysander, against the Megalith. There involvement was much less compared to Alain in the Team Flare arc, so it's understandable in their case, not to mention Diantha was helping them too in that matter, which made it more easier for them.

I’d imagine that say Salamence or Aerodactyl would’ve been useful in such a situation.

Still the Lysander fight sort of bugs me TBH. In that fight everyone was giving it their all, Lysander used his Pyroar and Mega Gyarados, Ash uses his whole team there, and Alain....only uses his Charizard. After how he suffered a breakdown and learnt the truth about how Lysandre tricked him, I'd expect him to go totally all-out against Lysandre and given everything he got against him.

There could be several reasons; 1 is the space constraints on the tower area they were fighting in. 2nd and most impoartantly Alain’s MC-X has way more battle viability than all of his other Pokémon combined ergo it would make far more sense for Alain to fully focus on directing his MC-X rather than have his focus split on all of his Pokémon. Besides if for argument’s sake your claim is true, then that would mean that Alain did indeed “cheat” in order to win the league which goes against the narrative of Alain winning because he was flat-out stronger. Yeah they don’t outright state everything in this show, but they’re not going to be that subtle about something that could have such a huge impact on the results of a Pokémon’league.

 

[DatsRight]

In that Lysandre battle, we saw that everyone was giving it their all in that fight, using multiple Pokemon, like Lysander using both his Gyarados and Pyroar, Ash using his whole team, but Alain using.....only his Charizard, that too just 2 episodes after he used an entire team against Ash. I was expecting him to go all out too by using some of his other Pokemon which would'be been useful.

That happens a LOT in the anime with villains. Notice, almost each and every time they face off with TR, even when they're being taken seriously or are on the brink of running off with Pikachu or another Pokemon, the twerps only use about one or two Pokemon at best, despite the BW finale showing how handily Ash alone could finish them by just sending out his whole team. Hell the Florges two parter, we see Ash and Goodra go against TR solo and the companions and Florges' army just....standing there below with concerned looks, only deciding to take action after he'd already won.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I’d imagine that say Salamence or Aerodactyl would’ve been useful in such a situation.

Maybe but not that much I guess. How many people could an Salamance or Aerodactyl carry at once? Salamence I guess could maybe at best carry 2 persons at once and I highly doubt that Aerodactyl would be able carry more than a person at a time.

There could be several reasons; 1 is the space constraints on the tower area they were fighting in. 2nd and most impoartantly Alain’s MC-X has way more battle viability than all of his other Pokémon combined ergo it would make far more sense for Alain to fully focus on directing his MC-X rather than have his focus split on all of his Pokémon.

I get the space constraints issue; but nimble Pokemon like Weavile and Bisharp were definitely usable even considering that issue, considering their pretty small size. Adding only 1/2 Pokemon along with MCX wouldn't really split Alain's focus that much, it'd likely increase the overall viability I believe. And also going by that logic A-G and Pikachu had way more viability than the other 4 of Ash's Pokemon and yet Ash used all of them, not only A-G and Pikachu.

Besides if for argument’s sake your claim is true, then that would mean that Alain did indeed “cheat” in order to win the league which goes against the narrative of Alain winning because he was flat-out stronger. Yeah they don’t outright state everything in this show, but they’re not going to be that subtle about something that could have such a huge impact on the results of a Pokémon’league.

I'm already pretty much tired of explaining why Alain using Pokemon loaned by Team Flare isn't cheating. Even if those Pokémon were of Team Flare, they still battled legitimately in the KL finals, it's not like they got their power unfairly buffed up or got healed by healing items or anything. Alain still had to legitimately and skillfully command those Pokémon in that battle by himself. Prior to the Flare climax, Team Flare didn't really commit much criminal activities so it's not like that Team Flare already was labelled as a crime syndicate from which loaning Pokemon would be illegal. Loaning Pokemon from someone else isn't supposed to be illegal as long as that 'someone else' willingly lends you Pokémon, like Misty won a tournament back in OS where she loaned Ash and Brock's Pokemon, and during the Kanto League, Misty offered Ash to lend one of his Water Pokémon. So no, it's not cheating if Alain used Pokemon loaned from Team Flare in the League.

 

[Satomine Night]

Why didn't Alain use all of his Pokémon against Lysandre? Here is a simple, meta answer: The animators didn't want to go through the stress of animating all of those Pokémon.

There was no indication Alain didn't catch his other Pokémon himself, so I see no reason to think they were given to him by Team Flare. If they had been, I think that would have been mentioned at some point. Alain has been traveling, and he is experienced enough in catching Pokémon to give Mairin advice. While he focused almost all of his training efforts on his Charizard, that's because he was primarily focused on getting stronger via Mega Evolution, and he only had Charizardite X.

 

[Zoruagible]

Given he had no emotional attachment to them, yeah they were gifted to him by Lysandre. They disappeared as quickly as they came.

Ash lost fair and square.

No. He didn't.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Why didn't Alain use all of his Pokémon against Lysandre? Here is a simple, meta answer: The animators didn't want to go through the stress of animating all of those Pokémon.

Ah, I see. But still the animators decided to go through the stress of animating so many Pokemon, along with the intense explosion of their moves, along with all those ferociously moving vines during the fight with the Megalith, amirite?

Using all of his other Pokemon would have been a problem of course, considering the space constraints of the prism tower. But at least using 1-2 of his other Pokemon would have been useful, like the nimble ones like Weavile and Bisharp, which are relatively small in size and wouldn't have to face much problems because of the space constraints.

There was no indication Alain didn't catch his other Pokémon himself, so I see no reason to think they were given to him by Team Flare. If they had been, I think that would have been mentioned at some point. Alain has been traveling, and he is experienced enough in catching Pokémon to give Mairin advice. While he focused almost all of his training efforts on his Charizard, that's because he was primarily focused on getting stronger via Mega Evolution, and he only had Charizardite X.

I do think there is some reason at least to think so, because we never got to see any of other Pokemon in the entirety of the ME specials, where he has been using Charizard all the time. Even outside of official battles, like say the scuttles with Mega Rayquaza, Primals, we never got to see his other Pokemon. Like say when Charizard got severely injured vs the Primals, maybe another Pokemon could've helped him to evacuate/make a getaway or so. We never even had much of an idea before XY(Z) that Alain actually had other Pokemon.

In XY(Z), the first time we got to see any of his other Pokemon was in XY&Z23, when he brought out his Metang. I've already said before that since Alain wasn't even trying to enter the League until then, Metang-->Metagross was his own Pokémon very likely. But still, that was all we got to see of Alain's Pokemon other than Charizard upto that point. And suddenly in the Kalos League he pulled out an entire team out of nowhere, Pokemon which we never saw before, neither afterwards in the Flare arc, which looks ridiculous and is a bit hard to believe.

If Alain's didn't actually have a full team originally, it isn't impossible that he was given those other Pokemon by Team Flare for entering the League, after he decided to enter the League, given his involvements with Lysandre/Team Flare. Because he'd obviously require a full team for entering the League.

Not using those other Pokemon against Lysandre, like I said earlier, could be maybe an indication because if those Pokemon were from Team Flare he obviously can't use them against the Team Flare boss. And Weavile and Bisharp were 2 species of Pokemon we saw with Team Flare grunts/admins multiple times, so that is something to consider.

Lastly, just saying that the topic of this thread is not to prove/suggest that Alain cheated by using Team Flare's Pokemon or anything, rather to just discuss the origins of his other Pokémon, from where he got them. I did already mention multiple times before that loaning Pokemon from Team Flare isn't supposed to be cheating as long as those Pokemon battled legitimately.

 

[blizzardblaze]

Another possibility: Alain met Pawniard and Sneasal in Professor Sycamore's lab, who had been living there for a time and were taken in.

 

[U.N. Owen]

Honestly, I find it more realistic that Alain just spammed Charizard because of Lysandre's energy collection scheme and his behavior isn't unlike those of players who just overlevel their starter and spam it the entire game. Honestly, the same applies to Tobias who didn't even seem to have anyone other than Darkrai.

 

[Genaller]

This whole Champions/E4s only use their Ace “99% of the time” notion is faulty. The appearances of Champions/E4s in the series are: Lorelei, Bruno, Lance, Steven, Drake, Agatha, Lucian, Aaron, Flint, Bertha, Cynthia, Caitlin, Alder, Diantha, Siebold, Malva, Wikstrom.

Lorelei: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Bruno: Didn’t use any Pokémon, Lance: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Steven: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Drake: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Agatha: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Lucian: Only Used Ace Pokemon (though he did use Giraferig on-screen in the “champion league finale” re-run), Aaron: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Flint: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Bertha: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Cynthia: Used non-Ace Pokémon, Alder: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Caitlin: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Diantha: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Malva: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Siebold: Only Used Ace Pokémon, Wikstrom: Only Used Ace Pokemon. Therefore, more often than not E4 and Champion Pokémon did showcase their non-Aces. And if you’re going to say that the pattern was a shift towards only using Aces for later gen E4s and Champions then that still doesn’t explain why Steven didn’t use any of his other Pokémon when we know for a fact that he has a very powerful Aggron. If you’re going to say that no E4/Champion shower any non-Ace Pokémon post-DP then then that’d be incorrect since Cynthia showcased that she had a Glaceon in BW and also Steven’s Aaron makes a cameo appearance in ME Act 2. Regardless of what any of these perceived patterns the following are still objective facts:

— Malva, Diantha and Steven had 5 other first rate Pokémon by definition
— Malva, Diantha and Steven used none of those other Pokémon during the TF climax
— No other characters barring Ash, Serena, and Clemont (a.k.a the main characters) were shown using non-Ace Pokémon in the TF climax
— Alain must be proficient at catching Pokémon because he was able to give Marin solid advice on the matter
— Alain had been traveling on his journey for a long time and hence was already an expereinced trainer when we first saw him

All of this would indicate that all the Pokémon Alain used at the league were indeed his and that he most likely caught them sometime during his journey as a trainer. Your claims:

Claim 1: Alain didn’t utilize his other 5 Pokémon while Lysandre and Ash used all the Pokémon at their disposal, hence those Pokémon weren’t his since he didn’t use them when supposedly trying his hardest against Lysandre.

Problem with this claim: If it was truly the case that some of Alain’s Pokémon belonged to TF, then why didn’t the anime make any explicit indication of this? Note that they didn’t need to have a character explicitly state this in order to make the indication; for example they could have just shown a 5 second scene of TF confiscating Alain’s other Pokémon (which I presume is what you think they did hence why you believe Alain didn’t have those other Pokémon at the time). The 2nd issue is that like it or not there are plausible explanations for why Alain didn’t use his other Pokémon (e.g. space constraints, wanted to focus his attention solely on Charizard etc..). Now we can argue all day about the likelihood of these reasons being the case but the facts are that:

A) Our default expectation is that those Pokémon were indeed Alain’s
B) There are plausible explanations (a.k.a those with non-trivial probability) which explain why Alain didn’t use his other Pokémon

Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to provide definitive evidence in support of those Pokémon not being Alain’s.


Claim 2: Alain didn’t use any of his other Pokémon during the Primals crisis in ME Act 3, therefore he didn’t have any other Pokémon at the time.

Well the first issue is that again Steven was also their yet we don’t see the guy send out his Aggron. Also once again we do have a plausible explanation for why Alain and Steven didn’t send out their other Pokémon which is that they would’ve stood no chance against the Primals due to such a massive disparity in battle viability. Finally even if Alain didn’t have any other Pokémon at the time, there’s always the possibility that he caught them between then and the Kalos League. On a side note his other Pokémon weren’t seen during the ME specials in general since by their very nature the focus was on ME Pokémon in those specials and Alain’s goal in them solely revolved around Charizard.

Finally excluding Charizard Alain does show visible concern for some of his Pokémon during the KL finals namely Metagross and Bisharp which drastically reduces the probability even further that those 2 weren’t Alain’s Pokémon. Of particular interest is Bisharp since he would be a prime TF Pokémon candidate (if there were any) and would’ve been 1 of the best options to use in the situation against Lysandre (if Alain were to use any of his non-Aces) due to it being relatively small and nimble as you put it though both Alain’s explicit worry for Bisharp when it got hit by Bide as well as him spurring Bisharp on when it was about to fight Greninja go against the notion that Bisharp was a “borrowed” Pokémon since from what we’ve seen Alain did have a fairly strong bond with Bisharp (he also did with Metagross though you’ve already accepted that Metagross most likely wasn’t borrowed especially since we saw it in XYZ 23 and Alain acknowledged it as his Pokémon).

In conclusion based on the evidence presented in the series I don’t think it is reasonable to conclude that some of Alain’s Pokémon were given to him by TF.

 

[Red and Blue]

Like I mentioned earlier we saw a bunch of Weavile and Bisharp used in the ninja two parter. Those two Pokemon could have been easier to reuse.

 

[Satomine Night]

Ah, I see. But still the animators decided to go through the stress of animating so many Pokemon, along with the intense explosion of their moves, along with all those ferociously moving vines during the fight with the Megalith, amirite?

Just so you know, I was half-joking about the meta reason Alain didn't use any of his other Pokémon.

I do think there is some reason at least to think so, because we never got to see any of other Pokemon in the entirety of the ME specials, where he has been using Charizard all the time. Even outside of official battles, like say the scuttles with Mega Rayquaza, Primals, we never got to see his other Pokemon. Like say when Charizard got severely injured vs the Primals, maybe another Pokemon could've helped him to evacuate/make a getaway or so. We never even had much of an idea before XY(Z) that Alain actually had other Pokemon.

Firstly, we don't know when he caught his other Pokémon (assuming he caught them himself). We don't know if it was before, during, or after the timeline of the ME specials. So, it's kind of hard to use his not using any other Pokémon during the ME specials as concrete evidence that he didn't catch them himself.

Secondly, he was battling freakin' Legendaries, and powered-up forms of those Legendaries at that. It's not completely illogical for him to stick to using his strongest Pokémon for those battles. If he had other Pokémon on hand at that time, he might have felt it a waste to call them out, since they'd be quickly defeated.

I'm not saying Team Flare/Lysandre didn't loan Alain Pokémon for the League. I'm saying there is nothing indicating that they did...just as one could argue there's nothing indicating that they didn't.

 

[Dragalge]

He probably always had them on hand but the writers just didn’t feel like showing them apart from Metang/Metagross and Charizard imo.

I do personally think it would have been nice to see a bit more of his team before the Kalos League started though. Someone like Pupitar or Weavile would have been good to see in action along with Charizard and Metang.

 

[satopi]

I'd like to think he caught these Pokemon off screen. The Pokémon's main purpose was to cause a conflict against Ash and had no importance other than to allow Alan into the Kalos League with the appropriate amount of Pokémon. They couldn't even bother animating Alan's Gym battle wins outside of crushing them hard like flies or using them in the fight against Lysandre. You think they would bother showing us how he easily captured those Pokémon with a 1 hit KO?

 

[AznKei]

Maybe, but to me I don't put much thought about the logic behind it. The only thing I see is that the producers/writers gave Alain extra Pokemons so that they can expand the whole battle against Ash, only to forget those Pokemon once it is over.