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Weird moves certain Pokemon can or cannot learn

Lucariomen

Well-Known Member
I've always found it a bit weird the creation trio and Garchomp don't get Dragon Dance. Especially as its now a TR. Seems like they just didn't want to give it to any of the dragons from Sinnoh for some reason.
In my opinion, every Dragon-Type that looks like a dragon should learn Dragon Dance. Dialga, Palkia, Giratina and Garchomp shouldn't be exceptions.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Well, TCG always had its own rules when it comes to creating moves, with some even going to the main series, like Energy Ball. Another example is Flareon, who knew Fiery Dance in a certain Pokémon Card that I don't remember which, yet it can't learn it on Gen 5, since it is now Volcarona's signature move.
A couple of Poke-Powers/Bodies/Abilities also became moves in the games with Rain Dance being the most notable. Psystrike is another example of a TGC Attack becoming an actual move.
 

Lucariomen

Well-Known Member
I meant to say Psyshock. I always get Psystrike and Psyshock confused as they are so similar in name and what they do in the games.
Psyshock: A variation of Psychic which the foe defends with its DEF stat instead of SPD stat.

Psystrike: A 30+ power Psychic, but it's Mewtwo's signature move.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Garchomp doesn't get Dragon Dance because it'd be too broken, especially on the mega. Adamant Mega Garchomp speed ties with base 145s like Mega Sceptile after a single Dragon Dance, it's fast enough to outspeed virtually anything relevant, especially when running Jolly. Don't underestimate Mega Garchomp, it might lose a bit of speed when mega evolving, but base 92 speed is far from unsalvageable and base 170 attack + Sand Force + STAB Earthquake is effectively a weapon of mass destruction, there isn't much in pokémon that can reach those power levels without boosting. It'd only hit that much harder after Dragon Dance.
 
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Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
All the more reason it should get. Garchomp is everything Arceus wish it was :cool:
 

Pokefan_1987

Just another pokemon player.
I've always found it a bit weird the creation trio and Garchomp don't get Dragon Dance. Especially as its now a TR. Seems like they just didn't want to give it to any of the dragons from Sinnoh for some reason.
With the info Sceptile Leaf Blade added earlier, Dragon Dance is also powerful since it boosts by Attack Stage and one Speed stage.

Perhaps they're trying to limit Garchomp's speed if players are using Sandstorm + Sand Veil combo which boosts Evasion by 1.25x times.
Everyone knows Garchomp already has really high Attack, it also has one of the best speed stats and adding increased evasion is just broken on a very fast pokemon. With adding Dragon Dance into the mix ?, you get a nightmarish dragon sweeper.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I’ve always thought it was a bit odd that Shellder could get Twineedle through breeding. I guess you could justify it having access to the move by saying it puts to use the supposed poison it uses when it is attached to Slowbro or Slowking but it’s still pretty weird to imagine. I’ve also always thought it was odd that Phanpy and Donphan never had access to Steamroller. Their main method of attacking is rolling around on the ground.
 

Pokefan_1987

Just another pokemon player.
Gyarados has had a weird problem for the whole existance of the games. :p Keep in mind most Flying move TM's and HM Fly don't work on it in most games. In short Gyarados has been part Flying type and all it ever gets are 2 flying moves. It may as well have been never been a flying type and only is so for ground move immunity and japanese folklore.

Gen 1: No Flying moves
Gen 2: No Flying moves
Gen 3: No Flying moves
Gen 4: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 5: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 6 Kalos: No Tutors
Gen 6 Hoenn: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 7: Learns Hurricane at lvl 48 and only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 8: Bounce and Hurricane are available as Technical Records (TR) and Bounce from tutor
 
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Yveltal91057

Long live Masaki Kurosaki, Princess of the Quincy.
Zebstrika can learn Bounce from the Move Tutor in Black 2/White 2, but can’t learn Extreme Speed. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

It’s based on a zebra which are capable of running at least 100 miles per hour and I can’t imagine that zebras are capable of jumping into the air either.
 
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Pokefan_1987

Just another pokemon player.
Zebstrika can learn Bounce from the Move Tutor in Black 2/White 2. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

It’s based on a zebra which are capable of running at least 100 miles per hour and I can’t imagine that zebras are capable of jumping into the air either.
The highest record for tallest horse jump is 2.47/2.49 metres which has never been beaten since 1949. But in a combat game it doesn't seem so feasible for a horse animal to jump nearly sky high. 2.49 is barely enough to dodge a attack.

Howvever The Guinness record for highest dog jump is a whopping 19.7. Not surprising since dogs aren't heavy. But we don't see any jump moves unless Aerial Ace counts.
 
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Luthor

Well-Known Member
Gyarados has had a weird problem for the whole existance of the games. :p Keep in mind most Flying move TM's and HM Fly don't work on it in most games. In short Gyarados has been part Flying type and all it ever gets are 2 flying moves. It may as well have been never been a flying type and only is so for ground move immunity and japanese folklore.

Gen 1: No Flying moves
Gen 2: No Flying moves
Gen 3: No Flying moves
Gen 4: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 5: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 6 Kalos: No Tutors
Gen 6 Hoenn: Can only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 7: Learns Hurricane at lvl 48 and only learn flying move Bounce from a Tutor
Gen 8: Bounce and Hurricane are available as Technical Records (TR) and Bounce from tutor

Whats truly weird about that for me is that it doesn't get Aerial Ace. So many non-flying type moves get that move even some like Dugtrio, Dhelmise and Crustle that to me Gyarados should be able to do it.
 

octoboy

I Crush Everything
I'm guessing gyarados usually only gets bounce as its flying type attack because its flying type is a reference to the legend of the carp jumping to turn into a dragon, so its sky-high leaps are the only aerial-type technique it can actually perform. Gyarados is known to cause natural disasters, so hurricane makes sense. Aerial ace is more of a technical skill, which doesn't seem to be something gyarados has much of (it's much more plain forceful and furious), so that might be why gyarados doesn't get it, while some of the cleverer non-flyers do (though dhelmise seems like an odd fit for it for sure).

Though I have suspected for a while that gyarados's flying type was mainly given to it as a nerf, giving it a compound weakness. Its never getting STAB for it in the beginning seems to kind of support that.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I'm guessing gyarados usually only gets bounce as its flying type attack because its flying type is a reference to the legend of the carp jumping to turn into a dragon, so its sky-high leaps are the only aerial-type technique it can actually perform. Gyarados is known to cause natural disasters, so hurricane makes sense. Aerial ace is more of a technical skill, which doesn't seem to be something gyarados has much of (it's much more plain forceful and furious), so that might be why gyarados doesn't get it, while some of the cleverer non-flyers do (though dhelmise seems like an odd fit for it for sure).

Though I have suspected for a while that gyarados's flying type was mainly given to it as a nerf, giving it a compound weakness. Its never getting STAB for it in the beginning seems to kind of support that.
I think that originally GF wanted every Pokémon to have a weakness in the first two Gens so that players would try out every Pokémon and none would absolutely broken. It didn’t quite turn out that way in Gen I since the Psychic Type was broken any way and had that weird glitch that made them immune to Ghost attacks despite many NPCs mentioning that the Psychic type was weak against Ghost and Bug types.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
Garchomp doesn't get Dragon Dance because it'd be too broken, especially on the mega. Adamant Mega Garchomp speed ties with base 145s like Mega Sceptile after a single Dragon Dance, it's fast enough to outspeed virtually anything relevant, especially when running Jolly. Don't underestimate Mega Garchomp, it might lose a bit of speed when mega evolving, but base 92 speed is far from unsalvageable and base 170 attack + Sand Force + STAB Earthquake is effectively a weapon of mass destruction, there isn't much in pokémon that can reach those power levels without boosting. It'd only hit that much harder after Dragon Dance.

With the info Sceptile Leaf Blade added earlier, Dragon Dance is also powerful since it boosts by Attack Stage and one Speed stage.

Perhaps they're trying to limit Garchomp's speed if players are using Sandstorm + Sand Veil combo which boosts Evasion by 1.25x times.
Everyone knows Garchomp already has really high Attack, it also has one of the best speed stats and adding increased evasion is just broken on a very fast pokemon. With adding Dragon Dance into the mix ?, you get a nightmarish dragon sweeper.

If that is the case it might make sense from a gameplay balancing view but I think its fair to say that within the games its an oddity.



I'm guessing gyarados usually only gets bounce as its flying type attack because its flying type is a reference to the legend of the carp jumping to turn into a dragon, so its sky-high leaps are the only aerial-type technique it can actually perform. Gyarados is known to cause natural disasters, so hurricane makes sense. Aerial ace is more of a technical skill, which doesn't seem to be something gyarados has much of (it's much more plain forceful and furious), so that might be why gyarados doesn't get it, while some of the cleverer non-flyers do (though dhelmise seems like an odd fit for it for sure).

Though I have suspected for a while that gyarados's flying type was mainly given to it as a nerf, giving it a compound weakness. Its never getting STAB for it in the beginning seems to kind of support that.

Assuming you're correct (and to be honest your explanation seems like you might be) this does tie into a problem I often think of the flying type that there is not enough options for physical flying types that are not birds.


I think that originally GF wanted every Pokémon to have a weakness in the first two Gens so that players would try out every Pokémon and none would absolutely broken. It didn’t quite turn out that way in Gen I since the Psychic Type was broken any way and had that weird glitch that made them immune to Ghost attacks despite many NPCs mentioning that the Psychic type was weak against Ghost and Bug types.

Gen 1 looking back has a lot of gaps. I never noticed at the time but quite a lot of Pokemon get either no moves of their type (Pinsir) or only get weak moves of their type (Dragonite) or cannot properly use moves of their own type (Gengar) given how physical and special moves worked back then (by physical/special types rather than by moves)
 

MrJechgo

Well-Known Member
Whats truly weird about that for me is that it doesn't get Aerial Ace. So many non-flying type moves get that move even some like Dugtrio, Dhelmise and Crustle that to me Gyarados should be able to do it.
The Flying type for Gyarados feels really awkward, when 1) Mega Gyarados is Water/Dark and 2) it feels like Water/Dragon.

In fact, the Flying type is rather poorly implemented, because several Pokémon feel like they should be Flying, but at the same time, they have to represent 2 other types, and they cannot have Levitate on top of that.

It's almost like the series need ANOTHER "stat", based on whether the Pokémon is more on Land, Sea or Air, each with their own Rock/Paper/Scissor strenghts and weaknesses.
 
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