Well done Judas, good old Judas!

[PartyPokemon]

hai guise! So I was thinking... Judas betrayed Jesus, right? And Pilate had him crucified right? And the ones who organised this all were the high priests, right?
So which one of these was guilty? I mean, wasn't the crucifixion of Jesus all part of the plan to forgive sins and whatnot? And, because of this, should Judas, Pilate, Caiaphas, etc be considered as GOOD guys? Because they made it all happen? Anyways, gonna leave this thing to you guys.

Discuss.

Oh, yeah, I should add this: if you're not Christian and don't believe in this stuff, you may still joint the debate, you are very welcome to. But please do assume that this is all true, K? Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Skiks]

In essence Judas was a traitor but necessary. I'm sure God and Jesus knew what would happen to him so they just allowed things to happen the way they did.
It's interesting since there was a comic relating to this. In Spawn we had him battling the Disciples and they had this little interesting tidbit mentioned.

As Spawn lies slain, Mother appears and plucks a piece of fruit from the Tree of Life. She speaks with Judas, revealing that when she took the form of Jesus, Judas was his most beloved disciple, the only one who had the courage to betray him. Without his death, the life of Jesus would have had no greater meaning. Mother gives the power of the Forbidden Fruit to the lifeless Spawn, resurrecting him in a new form - his cloak and chains are gone, replaced with shining white wings.

But I do have to say though he was needed he was still a traitor. His action were needed but still something he shouldn't have done. It was a predicted path but it could have happened easily in other ways without involving Judas.

 

[squirrel boy]

thats a good point but i mean yeah, i guess they are the ones that made Jesus die, so i guess they are in a way the ones that were helpful to his death. hmm ill ask a preacher.

 

[octoboy]

I remember asking that question. The reply I got is that God planned it, and Jesus was just trusting God, so they're good. Judas and everyone who crucified Jesus weren't in on God's plan, so they're bad. Their intentions weren't to save humanity, it was just to get rich, and get rid of the guy who made them look bad.

Though, funnily enough, I've heard that it wasn't actually just betraying Jesus which made Judas bad... One person pointed out that Peter also betrayed Jesus, because he pretended not to know him, and that the only reason Peter was better is because he made up for it by preaching. He told me Judas was bad because he gave up.

What I find harder to understand is how a bunch of people killing a man who preaches good destroys evil. Either there's some other supernatural being, like the devil (who the branch of christianity I grew up in doesn't believe in), who wanted someone to die/get hurt for all the sins of the world, or God isn't all-powerful, because he can't forgive everyone without somebody getting hurt (whether they did it or not), something which people have been able to do.

I wandered offtopic there, but to sum up what I said before, Judas didn't know he was helping in God's plan, so he can't be thanked.

 

[Mercutio]

Well first off, how can you betray the omnicisient?

Now, without being a pretencious loser , I'd be inclined to blame the Romans followed by the priests. The Romans wanted it to happen (or at least central authority did) right? Then, the orthodox Jewish priests wnated him out of the way (not necessarily dead). Then, Judas was manipulated. Although you could argue that he still would have done it...

 

[PartyPokemon]

May I just add this... from what I've heard Jesus needed to die so that sins may be forgiven. Now God is omnipotent. He could have just done it without incarnating himself and dying. But he did show that he cared for us enough to. So...

But that's only all I understand. If someone who's pro at the topic could clear this up...

But, yeah guys. You made pretty good points.

 

[Tyrant Tar]

Now, without being a pretencious loser , I'd be inclined to blame the Romans followed by the priests. The Romans wanted it to happen (or at least central authority did) right? Then, the orthodox Jewish priests wnated him out of the way (not necessarily dead). Then, Judas was manipulated. Although you could argue that he still would have done it...

I think it was the other way around. Although the Romans owned the place, the priests ran it. The priests were annoyed or even afraid of what Jesus was saying and doing, changing peoples beliefs and habits. They were no longer the chosen among the chosen, and planned to get rid of Jesus to secure their place.
The Romans were mostly just following what the people (being pushed by the priests) wanted (ancient Rome being a democracy and all), hence Pilate's line about washing his hands of the trial.

 

[Yellow Torterra]

The three were necessary for the crucifixion to take place, they might have been condemned because of the sins they committed during the Crucifixion (I'm using the word might because we are no one to judge others for their acts):

Judas: His first sin was being a traitor and selling Jesus, but he felt repented and was forgiven by God, his real sin was committing suicide

Pontious Pilate: Pilate's sin was being a coward and not taking responsibility over Jesus.

Caiaphas and the rest of the monks: The sins they had was cowardice, greed and envy.

They shouldn't be considered good guys, since they are all just a bunch of cowards and nothing else.

 

[NPC]

Thomas Aquinas argued that foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. If you think someone is predictable, predict what they will do in a given situation and end up being right, that doesn't mean that the person in question was not acting of their own volition.

The story of Judas Iscariot is that idea writ large.

 

[pokeaidmissy]

If someone who's pro at the topic could clear this up...

Maybe I can help! Lets take a look at what we got....

Judas betrayed Jesus, right?

Yep, yep! (Matthew 26: 14-15)

And Pilate had him crucified right?

Unwillingly, yes. You see, Pilate was kinda in a political and personal fix. He didn't want to offend the Jews by simply 'shooing' off their leaders, who wanted Jesus crucified (Matt. 27:1). However, he didn't want to crucify an innocent man (Matt. 27: 23-24). He did everything he could to not have Jesus crucified. As a last resort, he gave the people a choice: free Barabbas, a murderer, or Jesus, an innocent. We all know what happens. Pilate had no choice after the people made their descison. (Matt. Ch.27)

And the ones who organised this all were the high priests, right?

They had a role in it. (Matt. 27:20)

So which one of these was guilty?

Historically speaking, the Jewish leaders. (read above verses)

wasn't the crucifixion of Jesus all part of the plan to forgive sins and whatnot?

Yes. Jesus' death was prophecised many times throughout the Old Testament (Isaiah 53:1-12-one among many OT prophecies) and even Jesus knew (Luke 18:31-34). He went willingly (Mark 14:32-39). I'll add some more details on this soon, lets get to the other statements....

because of this, should Judas, Pilate, Caiaphas, etc be considered as GOOD guys?

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10) =]

Because they made it all happen?

Actually WE made it all happen. You, me, your mom, your mom's mom, your dad, my uncles and aunts, Abe Lincoln, his sisters, my sister, the guy on the bus, the entire cheerleading squad, Hillary Clinton, Tyra Banks, even Obama and Serebii Joe.

I think you get the point. EVERYONE is the reason that Christ died.

Everyone is born with a thing called 'sin'. We've all lied, cheated, stolen, disobeyed, etc. at one point in our lives (Romans 3:10-as mentioned above). No one is perfect (if you say you are, you've just lied =]). Even if we've only done very few 'bad things', that still separates us from God.

The price to pay for that 'sin' (crime pays, right?) is death. (Ro. 6:23)
There is two types of death: physical and spiritual. The physical is a result of 'sin' that all must face. Spiritual death occurs after death in a place called 'Hell'. Hell was never meant for humans (Matt. 25:41).

Jesus Christ understood that, which is why He died willingly: to take your place (John 3:16; Ro. 5:8). To make a way for you. His free gift is 'salvation'. It can't be earned (Titus 3:5), you only have to recieve it (Ro. 10:13; Ro. 10:9). He won't force Himself on you (Rev. 3:20). Its that simple.

To sum up my statement, Jesus' death was already planned. Even if Jesus had died by some other means or someone else killed Him, Him still would've died for the same reasons: to save us. That was His purpose: to live, die, and rise for us.

So, who really killed Jesus?

WE DID.

 

[PartyPokemon]

words

Dude, best post in thread (well, most thought out reply, at least).
Any atheists or other non-Christians who can put something into here? Because, y'know, the input and opinions of other groups would be appreciated here. However, don't just say "godd r not exits lololololol." Actually add something to the debate, ok? K.

 

[ironknight42]

For Kush
"Well first off, how can you betray the omnicisient?

Now, without being a pretencious loser , I'd be inclined to blame the Romans followed by the priests. The Romans wanted it to happen (or at least central authority did) right? Then, the orthodox Jewish priests wnated him out of the way (not necessarily dead). Then, Judas was manipulated. Although you could argue that he still would have done it..."
The Priests above all else are traditionally blamed, yet you discount one crucial party the crowd at the "sentencing of Jesus" they not the priests(though they are encouraged by the priests) demand the release of Barrabas(spelling) not Jesus. Pilate the washes his hands of the killing. Leaving only the crowd or humanity and the Priests as the key partie. I'm no expert on Judas but I'm pretty sure he is traditionally considered a antagonist in this story. I do not think that you should say that what Judas did was good, it simply had to happan one way or another(by this I mean someone would kill him)

just a brief thought

 

[Aeron]

Ponchus wanted to release Jesus, even offering to release Barabus or Jesus, and the people chose Barabus, so it was not Ponchus. Judas hung himself shortly after betraying Jesus so I honestly think Judas gave into temptation rather than actually betray him. It was the priests at the time who were scared of Jesus so they had him killed, it was the Priests who were guilty, due to their own delusion and arrogance.

 

[Mercutio]

Ah yes forgot the crowd, sorry. Though I'm inclined to shift blame from them to those pulling their pursestrings.

 

[squirrel boy]

So, who really killed Jesus?

WE DID.

geez your making feel like the bad guy, but hey its the truth, we killed him spiritually but physically Judas and Pilate set it all up.

 

[Jedi Metroid]

Judas shouldn't be hated, he did what he had to do. Eventually, he was so overcome by grief he did actually hang himself...I think he's up there in heaven, to be honest. It wasn't his fault really.

 

[pokeaidmissy]

Dude, best post in thread (well, most thought out reply, at least).

Thanks! ^.^

geez your making feel like the bad guy, but hey its the truth

Hebrews 4:12: “For the Word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword…”

The Bible is meant to sting some....heheh....

Judas shouldn't be hated

First off-AHH! MY EYES! *o* The red font is killing me....lol

Right. No one should be hated-that was one of Christ's commandments. (John 13:34)
Though, Jesus did have some things to say about the one that betrayed Him:

"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born"-Mark 14:21

I've oftened wondered if Judas was ever forgiven for betraying Christ. I'm not 100% sure, because I believe the same claim you have, Jedi Metroid. He was controlled by Satan (Luke 22:1-7), surely he had no rational thoughts, other than evil. Then again, in the above statement, Christ is implying that he is doomed, but He never says it exactly....Meh, who knows?

 

[PartyPokemon]

Ponchus wanted to release Jesus, even offering to release Barabus or Jesus, and the people chose Barabus, so it was not Ponchus. Judas hung himself shortly after betraying Jesus so I honestly think Judas gave into temptation rather than actually betray him. It was the priests at the time who were scared of Jesus so they had him killed, it was the Priests who were guilty, due to their own delusion and arrogance.

"Ponchus?" Quite a creative spelling, I must say...

 

[xParukiax]

Judas is misunderstood.
Jesus knew he had to die to save everyone, and he knew that someone needed to betray him and go to the Romans and whatnot. If it weren't for Judas, Jesus would not have been able to save everyone. God acted through Judas so all the plans could be put in place.
And no, I'm not Christian but that's what I think about it

 

[Phototoxin]

There were actually 2 Judases... Judas Thaddeus... aka St Jude the Patron saint of Lost/Hopeless Causes and Judas Iscariot who was the treasurer of the group.
There have been historians who claimed that Jesus in his wisdom arranged with Judas so that he could get to the high priest as there would normally be no other way for an anarchist to get to see the Sanhedrin.