Were we wrong to want HMs gone?

[Orphalesion]

I know I said this before but...
I still liked the rental Pokemon best tbh. Just add the option to register your own Pokemon to replace the rental Pokemon and it's a good compromise for both sides, imho.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

I know I said this before but...
I still liked the rental Pokemon best tbh. Just add the option to register your own Pokemon to replace the rental Pokemon and it's a good compromise for both sides, imho.

As long as there's a way for you to use your own Pokemon if you want, and they have more than just a handful of field abilities, I'm fine with whatever they do.

 

[janejane6178]

The best solution for me is having normal HMs but just having additiomal move slot just for that

 

[The Admiral]

Having strong flashbacks to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy right now. "Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans." People will get nostalgic for anything.

HMs were bad and their removal is good... however I think it was best handled by the Ride Pokemon mechanic. It more easily permits some more open-ended worldbuilding styles and allows a lot of the obstacles to remain. (Yes, I know, the Rotom Bike exists, but it hasn't been shown using Strength or anything like that, only Surf, and I don't know that those would fit too well...) Locking HM moves to your Pokemon interferes with the game's primary customization aspect, by restricting what Pokemon you can sensibly use to ones who have good HM use potential. Also, save for Surf and Waterfall, all of the HM moves are underpowered -- Flash is even not a good accuracy-down move! So they undercut your ability to make a party of whatever Pokemon you want, and they make those Pokemon weaker. So in my mind, if they're not gonna make them better moves, changing the progression method is the better choice.

 

[Tsukuyomi56]

Not really, HMs were not too annoying in Gen 1 and 2 but became annoying in Gen 3 and 4 (“too much water” does hit home when you are investing in HM slaves/multiple Water-types to navigate the water routes). Making field moves innate abilities similar to Ranger solves the issue of sticking useless moves on your battlers, there is still the bugbear of needing to catch specific Pokémon though (for those doing certain self-imposed challenges).

 

[kamomesan]

I think HM's would be cool if they were used for optional puzzles and not simply locks on progressing the main story.

Making field moves innate abilities similar to Ranger solves the issue of sticking useless moves on your battlers

Was going to suggest an approach that takes inspiration from Ranger as well. I liked that field moves weren't simply sorted by type, but there were different levels to match the strength of the Pokemon.

 

[MrJechgo]

I personally don't miss them, because the fact that you couldn't forget them was irritating.

The whole idea of HMs should have been reworked as follow:

• You have to obtain the ability to use HMs, as usual.
• When you interact with an HM-related object or terrain, you are prompted to use a certain Pokémon to execute that task.
• Surf, Fly, Flash and Dig can be activated by selecting them in a menu.
• If you have a Pokémon that can use that HM, it uses it automatically.
• If you want to teach that move to a Pokémon such as Fly or Surf, you can... but you can forget these moves like other moves.
• If you use Surf, that Pokémon become completely unavailable for battles, which makes sense.
• Honestly, some HM moves should be... better:
  • Cut should have a high critical ratio.
  • Surf should wash up/nullify traps.
  • Strength should break barriers.
  • Waterfall should nullify ground-based immunities (Levitate, Magnet Rise, etc) for one turn.

 

[Divine Retribution]

• Surf should wash up/nullify traps.
• Waterfall should nullify ground-based immunities (Levitate, Magnet Rise, etc) for one turn.

Surf and Waterfall are the two HM moves that really don't need a buff. Waterfall is still a viable option for physically-inclined Water-types, competing only with Liquidation (which has a somewhat worse distribution, although becoming a TR move in Sw/Sh did change that a bit) and Aqua Tail, which has lower accuracy in exchange for slightly more power. Waterfall is still debatably better than either for fast Water-type attackers like Barraskewda, which can abuse its respectable Flinch chance to potentially rack up even more damage.

Surf, on the other hand, was the go-to Water-typed special attack for nearly any Pokemon that learned it all the way up to the 5th generation, when Scald was introduced. Scald is honestly overpowered and long overdue for a nerf, and were that to happen, Surf, which is by no means a bad move in its own right, would probably start seeing some usage again.

Everything else could probably use a buff if HMs ever return, though. If you're going to be forced to carry a move, that move shouldn't totally suck in battle.

 

[Xuxuba]

Nah, i don't miss them. But if we were to use pokémon outside of battle, i would rather have HMs as key items instead of moves.

Like, after beating a water gym leader he would give you a sea saddle, which allows you to mount one of your sea dwelling pokémon and travel across the sea.

It would also be nice if you didn't have to select the item and instead just had to press A when close to a body of water. Or something like that.

 

[PsychoLogical]

Never again do I want to see anything related to HMs again. Biggest burdens to ever exist between the era of Gen 1 to Gen 6.

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

I concur with the crowd saying that they don't want HMs to return. I don't miss having an HM slave on my team.

 

[Italianbaptist]

Short answer: HMs being gone are for the best. The majority of the moves I don't miss.

BUT, OP has a really good point about the loss of immersion and personality that comes with rental Ride Pokemon and especially the Rotom Bike. There was definitely something to be said about adventuring with YOUR team and using them to clear obstacles in the way that the Alola games really missed out on in the transition. The Let's Go games were significantly better in this regard, between Partner Pikachu/Eevee and some of the rideable Pokemon in the overworld. I think a similar system would work wonders.

Maybe like how they brought back breakable TMs in the form of TRs, they could bring back HMs in the form of some setup of Key Items. The move itself wouldn't be added to your Pokemon, but if you go on the Pokemon screen and one is eligible to use it, the option would appear and the cutscene would play with your Pokemon acting out the move. If you don't have the Pokemon a rental can be called in, but it's the exception rather than the default.

 

[MrJechgo]

Surf and Waterfall are the two HM moves that really don't need a buff. Waterfall is still a viable option for physically-inclined Water-types, competing only with Liquidation (which has a somewhat worse distribution, although becoming a TR move in Sw/Sh did change that a bit) and Aqua Tail, which has lower accuracy in exchange for slightly more power. Waterfall is still debatably better than either for fast Water-type attackers like Barraskewda, which can abuse its respectable Flinch chance to potentially rack up even more damage.

Surf, on the other hand, was the go-to Water-typed special attack for nearly any Pokemon that learned it all the way up to the 5th generation, when Scald was introduced. Scald is honestly overpowered and long overdue for a nerf, and were that to happen, Surf, which is by no means a bad move in its own right, would probably start seeing some usage again.

Everything else could probably use a buff if HMs ever return, though. If you're going to be forced to carry a move, that move shouldn't totally suck in battle.

You're right, but I have preferred a slight rebalance to add a worthwhile secondary effect ^^;

I mean, come on, if your Pokémon summons a rushing wave at the opponent, the ground it's standing isn't gonna remain intact Also, getting slammed from above by a cascading waterfall will slam you to the ground pretty quickly XD

 

[janejane6178]

SM nailed it I with the Pokemon help thing...

 

[Pokefan_1987]

Nope. The absurd ammount needed for Hoenn is just terrible. 4 out of 8 are water moves. Ride pokemon and rotom-bike are way better solutions.

 

[janejane6178]

Nope. The absurd ammount needed for Hoenn is just terrible. 4 out of 8 are water moves. Ride pokemon and rotom-bike are way better solutions.

rotom-bike could be good if it had more functions.....

 

[Chaos Emperor]

The problem with HMs are as follows:

1: no way to remove them without move deleter, who is usually at the very end of the game so until then your stuck with the moves.
2: aside from surf, strength, and to a lesser extent fly, they’re very weak.
3: way too many of them in later games.

The best solution imo would be reworking them into key items that u use when needed. For example, cut could be replaced with a sword (Pokemon IS an rpg after all), flash could be a flashlight/lantern used in dark areas, surf could be a surfboard to cross water, dive could be a scuba tank (or the Devon goggles in oras) u put on when going underwater, rock smash could be a hammer or pickaxe, and rock climb could be climbing gear. Stuff like defog and whirlpool admittedly I got nothing for, but I’m sure something could be figured out.